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Just thought everyone would like to know. …and while you are waiting for a new post, check out tribuy.com Lots of new items up for auction Emilio De Soto II www.desotosport.com       "The triathlon clothing company" www.tribuy.com               "buy and sell your own triathlon gear " www.t1wetsuits.com       "The new triathlon wetsuit coming in 2001" Email me for a De Soto Sport free catalog

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Yes, and Insidetriathlon has much quicker updates than triathlonlive.com… bd – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Just thought everyone would like to know. …and while you are waiting for a new post, check out tribuy.com Lots of new items up for auction Emilio De Soto II www.desotosport.com       "The triathlon clothing company" www.tribuy.com               "buy and sell your own triathlon gear " www.t1wetsuits.com       "The new triathlon wetsuit coming in 2001" Email me for a De Soto Sport free catalog

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Question:

Team-Magic’s Mountain Lakes Triathlon hosted the Alabama State Championships this past Saturday.  Congratulations to the 2000 triahlon champions: ALABAMA STATE TRIATHLON CHAMPIONSHIP AUGUST 12, MOUNTAIN LAKES TRIATHLON 600yd/16.2mi/3mi   Overall Male:            Mike Plumb                1:06:28   Overall Female:        Deanna Newman        1:10:26   Masters Male:           Mark Jacobs               1:08:59   Masters Female:        Jackie Ryan               1:20:53   Junior Male:              Ryan Tipton               1:24:24   Junior Female:          Bryn Crawford           1:22:24

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Does Bryn happen to be any relation? Ray

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Team-Magic’s Mountain Lakes Triathlon hosted the Alabama State Championships this past Saturday.  Congratulations to the 2000 triahlon champions: ALABAMA STATE TRIATHLON CHAMPIONSHIP AUGUST 12, MOUNTAIN LAKES TRIATHLON 600yd/16.2mi/3mi   Overall Male:            Mike Plumb                1:06:28   Overall Female:        Deanna Newman        1:10:26   Masters Male:           Mark Jacobs               1:08:59   Masters Female:        Jackie Ryan               1:20:53   Junior Male:              Ryan Tipton               1:24:24   Junior Female:          Bryn Crawford           1:22:24

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Question:

In article <Pine.GSO.4.21.0005021236070.26521-

[snip] – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Let’s say you race at 6:00/mile pace at 180 strides per minute. That works out to just under 5 feet per stride, which includes 4 feet airborne plus the length of your foot. (I’ll assume your foot is 1 foot long — what else?) Assuming you move forward at constant speed that means you spend about 1/5-th of the time on the ground. (This also assumes your foot does not slide when planted.) Thus you are doing 180 ballistic airborne phases in 48 seconds, so each phase lasts .26 seconds. Half of this is .13 seconds, and the distance covered by a freely falling body in .13 seconds is .27 feet, or 3.2 inches. So I’m claiming that under the above stated running conditions your center of mass is displaced vertically from the instant of takeoff by about 3.2 inches. As others have noted, the displacement downward of the center of mass during the contact phase could also be considered part of "bounce", but estimating its size is quite a different problem.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but are you not describing the motion of a rigid object?  An efficient runner will flex, or shorten the airborn leg in order to provide the optimum force and trajectory for the next foot-strike. Thus, you must take into account the amount of vertical motion of the entire body that is prevented by this contraction.  If, in fact the runner is not setting the leg at the optimal angle, the effect of the next foot-strike would be to propel the entire body in a more vertical manner, or ‘bounce’.  It has always been my assumption that any bounce associated with running was a result of a failure to place the leg at an angle that would provide the most possible forward force, while also providing just enough force to overcome the gravitational forces associated with the displacement of the upper body. Of course, I could be all wet… — … tramps like us, Before you buy.

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180 strides per minute is 1/3 second per stride. It therefore takes 1/6 second to rise to the peak of one’s parabolic arc. From s = 16t^2 this works out to 4/9 foot. But the 4/9 of a foot is the peak of the arc measured by the foot relative to the ground, no?   A portion of the "bounce" will be mitigated by knee and hip flex and therefore less than 5 inches will translate to head "bounce?"  

yes. the 4/9 of a foot is for the body’s center of mass. as your legs can’t get longer but a you mentioned can flex (up) the head will have to compensate (down from 4/9 ‘ up) to keep the center of mass at 4/9 foot. i think rajeev

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 180 strides per minute is 1/3 second per stride. It therefore takes 1/6 second to rise to the peak of one’s parabolic arc. From s = 16t^2 this works out to 4/9 foot. But the 4/9 of a foot is the peak of the arc measured by the foot relative to the ground, no?   A portion of the "bounce" will be mitigated by knee and hip flex and therefore less than 5 inches will translate to head "bounce?"   yes. the 4/9 of a foot is for the body’s center of mass. as your legs can’t get longer but a you mentioned can flex (up) the head will have to compensate (down from 4/9 ‘ up) to keep the center of mass at 4/9 foot. i think

I’ll revise my earlier estimate slightly to take into account time spent on the ground. Let’s say you race at 6:00/mile pace at 180 strides per minute. That works out to just under 5 feet per stride, which includes 4 feet airborne plus the length of your foot. (I’ll assume your foot is 1 foot long — what else?) Assuming you move forward at constant speed that means you spend about 1/5-th of the time on the ground. (This also assumes your foot does not slide when planted.) Thus you are doing 180 ballistic airborne phases in 48 seconds, so each phase lasts .26 seconds. Half of this is .13 seconds, and the distance covered by a freely falling body in .13 seconds is .27 feet, or 3.2 inches. So I’m claiming that under the above stated running conditions your center of mass is displaced vertically from the instant of takeoff by about 3.2 inches. As others have noted, the displacement downward of the center of mass during the contact phase could also be considered part of "bounce", but estimating its size is quite a different problem. — Terry R. McConnell   Mathematics/304B Carnegie/Syracuse, N.Y. 13244-1150

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[snipped]   Apropos this notion, I recall the term ’superior ankle flexure’ of the Kenyans — that they stayed in contact with the ground longer than was typical even of elite runners.  If remembered correctly, and true, then it may well be that the elites are spending even less time in the air than the rest of us, having found good ways to maintain contact with the ground longer (pushing longer) and in converting some of the energy of landing back to forward motion. Mechanical efficiency.

Everything that I have read about this topic suggests the opposite: that a characteristic of elite runners is that their feet spend less time in contact with the ground. And the superior ankle flexure with a shorter time means that their push off is a more explosive one as it must be to produce a longer stride. However, until someone nails down exactly what Noakes was talking about we’re on bit of a wild goose chase here. — Peter James Ontario, Canada

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Have someone videotape you running. Before you buy.

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180 strides per minute is 1/3 second per stride. It therefore takes 1/6 second to rise to the peak of one’s parabolic arc. From s = 16t^2 this works out to 4/9 foot.

This does not take into account for the significant amount of time spent in contact with the ground. Robert’s post postulates that the ‘elite bounce’ is infact a dip as they sink at the knee to aid the push-off at the next stride. This suggests they spend more time in contact with the ground than the rest of us. By contrast, I understand that Michael Johnson’s unique action has him spend less time in contact with the ground than everyone else – but he isn’t going for efficiency… IanB.

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180 strides per minute is 1/3 second per stride. It therefore takes 1/6 second to rise to the peak of one’s parabolic arc. From s = 16t^2 this works out to 4/9 foot. This does not take into account for the significant amount of time spent in contact with the ground. Robert’s post postulates that the ‘elite bounce’ is infact a dip as they sink at the knee to aid the push-off at the next stride. This suggests they spend more time in contact with the ground than the rest of us.

Yes, you are absolutely right. In my simplistic analysis I didn’t attempt to account for time spent in contact with the ground because I have no idea how to do that. As you suggest, percentage of time in contact with the ground may well vary from runner to runner. I should also clarify that by "bounce" I meant maximum vertical displacement of center of mass. The word has probably been used to mean several different things in the course of this thread. By contrast, I understand that Michael Johnson’s unique action has him spend less time in contact with the ground than everyone else – but he isn’t going for efficiency… IanB.

– Terry R. McConnell   Mathematics/304B Carnegie/Syracuse, N.Y. 13244-1150

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[snip] We all bounce to some degree when we run.  The questions remain, how much is too much and how little is too little?

Bounce can be inferred from stride frequency by simple ballistics. If 180 strides per minute is optimal (a figure that has been mentioned here more than once,) then optimal bounce height is just over 5 inches. 180 strides per minute is 1/3 second per stride. It therefore takes 1/6 second to rise to the peak of one’s parabolic arc. From s = 16t^2 this works out to 4/9 foot. The 180 spm figure seems to be empirical. It would be interesting to see a theoretical argument that supports it. — Terry R. McConnell   Mathematics/304B Carnegie/Syracuse, N.Y. 13244-1150

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Bounce can be inferred from stride frequency by simple ballistics. If 180 strides per minute is optimal (a figure that has been mentioned here more than once,) then optimal bounce height is just over 5 inches.

Question:  Does anyone have a clue what Noakes meant by "bounce?"  I’ve looked on the net and can’t find his comments or any significant comments on "bounce." When someone says "bounce" I think head movement. 180 strides per minute is 1/3 second per stride. It therefore takes 1/6 second to rise to the peak of one’s parabolic arc. From s = 16t^2 this works out to 4/9 foot.

But the 4/9 of a foot is the peak of the arc measured by the foot relative to the ground, no?   A portion of the "bounce" will be mitigated by knee and hip flex and therefore less than 5 inches will translate to head "bounce?"   jennifer

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  The elites do have very long strides, but not by having great vertical motion.  What Noakes is calling ‘bounce’ is almost certainly something other than distance between feet and ground at the peak of the airborne phase. Suppose two canons with equal firepower and canonballs of equal mass were aimed in the same direction.  Canon A is fired parallel to the ground. Canon B is fired 37 degrees vertical of the horizon.  Which canonball goes further?

  True enough for ballistic flight, … but … your Canon B is going to be in flight much longer than the Canon A.  We have the observation that the plodders (me, for instance) are taking strides at about the same rate as the elites.  Hence, we’re spending about the same _time_ in taking our strides.   Partial answer, and which makes some energetic sense, is that the ‘bounce’ was in a different part of the stride.  Not in launching oneself into the air, but in flexing the knees.  Absorb some energy in the muscles as you sink a bit at landing and return some of it as you push forward.   In terms of vertical bounce (feet off ground distance), I’m now to the point of having fairly little.  But, in the landing, I don’t flex the knees much.  _If_ I were to find the right landing/takeoff to convert that energy to useful work, that is an energy source that doesn’t have a biochemical cost.  There is the biomechanical issue/cost of learning how to make this different stride work.  And there is quite possibly a strength cost in being able to take that flex without going all the way down.   Apropos this notion, I recall the term ’superior ankle flexure’ of the Kenyans — that they stayed in contact with the ground longer than was typical even of elite runners.  If remembered correctly, and true, then it may well be that the elites are spending even less time in the air than the rest of us, having found good ways to maintain contact with the ground longer (pushing longer) and in converting some of the energy of landing back to forward motion. Mechanical efficiency.   Bouncing or not, one thing is clearly true of the elites: They run very fluidly and smoothly.  Each stride is much the same as the previous because each stride is _right_.   They do not hammer the ground in their landings, and in leaving the ground, they’re not launching themselves.  Rather, they’re moving so gracefully fast that gravity can no longer keep them on earth. — Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links. Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences

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(snip)   The elites do have very long strides, but not by having great vertical motion.  What Noakes is calling ‘bounce’ is almost certainly something other than distance between feet and ground at the peak of the airborne phase. — Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur

activities notes and links. Suppose two canons with equal firepower and canonballs of equal mass were aimed in the same direction.  Canon A is fired parallel to the ground. Canon B is fired 37 degrees vertical of the horizon.  Which canonball goes further? Now, picture running next to a very long chalkboard with a piece of chalk sticking out laterally from your neck and perpendicular to your upright body axis.  If you were to have no bounce, you would inscribe a straight horizontal line on the chalkboard.  Too much bounce and you would draw a series of steep parabolic arcs.  If one were to zoom in on either the beginning or end of one of these parabolas, then an angle with respect to the horizon could be determined.  My guess is that Noakes’ putative bounce is somewhere in the range of 30 to 45 degrees. We all bounce to some degree when we run.  The questions remain, how much is too much and how little is too little? — Patrick

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you are right everyone bounces some, just some less than others. the canonball analogy is a tad weak for comparing humans (self-propelled) vs inanimate objects being propelled for distance. Most articles I’ve read really reduce bounce down to what is most economical: running up (bounce) or running forward ( as little bounce as possible) all but the high jumpers seem to want to go forward more than up. In addition consider that when no feet are on the ground pulling/pushing you forward you are in a state of deceleration, so taking the feet up is again not a economical.  This is probably why stride rate is more important to speed than stride length for speed. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (snip)   The elites do have very long strides, but not by having great vertical motion.  What Noakes is calling ‘bounce’ is almost certainly something other than distance between feet and ground at the peak of the airborne phase. — Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links. Suppose two canons with equal firepower and canonballs of equal mass were aimed in the same direction.  Canon A is fired parallel to the ground. Canon B is fired 37 degrees vertical of the horizon.  Which canonball goes further? Now, picture running next to a very long chalkboard with a piece of chalk sticking out laterally from your neck and perpendicular to your upright body axis.  If you were to have no bounce, you would inscribe a straight horizontal line on the chalkboard.  Too much bounce and you would draw a series of steep parabolic arcs.  If one were to zoom in on either the beginning or end of one of these parabolas, then an angle with respect to the horizon could be determined.  My guess is that Noakes’ putative bounce is somewhere in the range of 30 to 45 degrees. We all bounce to some degree when we run.  The questions remain, how much is too much and how little is too little? — Patrick

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Hi there, Could the bouncing while passing simply be an indicator of a more "urgent" effort? It seems to me that all/ most of the examples you cited were runners passing other runners…which would indicate a more pressing effort on the part of the passer. Did all those bouncers eventually win? Or did I miss something? I have been trying to reduce my vertical "hops"..and maintain more of a gliding stride. It not only feels better and smoother, but I am far less tired after completing the same distance (that I used to bounce  through) I use a treadmill and my mirror…or a brimmed cap (thanks Denny, for that tip). Tell me…was this all for naught? Teresa <turn the cap backwards to sport a ‘tude, dude

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I doubt that it was for naught.  I think that the point is that a shuffle is not the best way to run.  On the other end of the spectrum, when you run you don’t want to look like you on the second jump of the triple jump. Also, what I was trying to convey in my examples is that in the Ironman races you can see the difference in a good form and bad form more clearly because you have runners of greatly different abilities side by side.  If anyone felt any sense of urgency in these situations it would be the passee, after all how would you feel getting passed after leading a race for 4+hrs? All of the bouncers I pointed out ran among the fastest.  Peter Ried ran 2:47, Luc Van Lierde ran 2:41 and Lori Bowden ran an incredible 2:59.  Pretty fast for a marathon after 2.4 miles swimming and 112 miles on the bike. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi there, Could the bouncing while passing simply be an indicator of a more "urgent" effort? It seems to me that all/ most of the examples you cited were runners passing other runners…which would indicate a more pressing effort on the part of the passer. Did all those bouncers eventually win? Or did I miss something? I have been trying to reduce my vertical "hops"..and maintain more of a gliding stride. It not only feels better and smoother, but I am far less tired after completing the same distance (that I used to bounce  through) I use a treadmill and my mirror…or a brimmed cap (thanks Denny, for that tip). Tell me…was this all for naught? Teresa <turn the cap backwards to sport a ‘tude, dude

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Tim Noakes never stated that great runners bounce higher than other runners, but rather that they bounce.  I didn’t mean to imply otherwise.  Dr. Noakes used the visual example a pencil bobbing across a desk.  The best example I have seen of this is in the ‘98 Hawaii Ironman when Peter Ried (who was bouncing) passed Jurgen Zack (who was not bouncing). – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When viewed from a biomechanics standpoint two things differentiate speed in a runner.  One is stride length (measured in meters per stride) the other is turnover (measured in strides per min).  If a runner were to have the longest stride length and the fastest turnover he or she would be the fastest in the race.  To have a long stride length one must have bounce because a long stride length means that the runner is not touching the ground for longer during the stride.   I think some things got lost in the translation.   The cadences of elite runners, say 10k and marathon (that’s what you counted, right Denny?), is pretty much all the same, about 190. (Even I, far from elite, managed 170-180 in yesterday’s 10k race) Stride length is then the only variable to speak of.  ’Bouncing’ more, greater vertical motion, is not required.  Indeed, it would cause a _slower_ cadence.   Simply this: a) If you go up in the air farther, it takes longer to come back down.    (reduced cadence) b) While you’re in the air, you don’t get to push against the earth    to produce forward momentum.   The elites do have very long strides, but not by having great vertical motion.  What Noakes is calling ‘bounce’ is almost certainly something other than distance between feet and ground at the peak of the airborne phase. — Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links. Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences

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When viewed from a biomechanics standpoint two things differentiate speed in a runner.  One is stride length (measured in meters per stride) the other is turnover (measured in strides per min).  If a runner were to have the longest stride length and the fastest turnover he or she would be the fastest in the race.  To have a long stride length one must have bounce because a long stride length means that the runner is not touching the ground for longer during the stride.  

  I think some things got lost in the translation.     The cadences of elite runners, say 10k and marathon (that’s what you counted, right Denny?), is pretty much all the same, about 190. (Even I, far from elite, managed 170-180 in yesterday’s 10k race) Stride length is then the only variable to speak of.  ’Bouncing’ more, greater vertical motion, is not required.  Indeed, it would cause a _slower_ cadence.     Simply this: a) If you go up in the air farther, it takes longer to come back down.      (reduced cadence) b) While you’re in the air, you don’t get to push against the earth    to produce forward momentum.   The elites do have very long strides, but not by having great vertical motion.  What Noakes is calling ‘bounce’ is almost certainly something other than distance between feet and ground at the peak of the airborne phase. — Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links. Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences

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On the other hand, bounce is good, but too much is bad so you might actually be a runner that previously had too much bounce and now you are bringing it to an appropriate level.

Well, that gets to the heart of the matter.  I agree, as would everyone here, that some amount of bounce is required by the way all human beings run.  It’s just a question of how much, and more specifically and pedagogically, do most people bounce too much or not enough?  After all, if we’re trying to dispense some sort of wisdom here, then that’s an important thing to know. In swimming, stroke style and mechanics are very personal, and a good swimming teacher/coach is one who can help an individual do what works best for them.  I suspect much the same is true in running, and I’ll probably look into getting some individual coaching at some point in the future. One idea I’ve been toying with is getting the hardware to take video of myself running and post it somewhere on the web where people can comment on my form.  Perhaps a good summertime project for me.  Someone on the swimming newsgroup has taken excerts from TV coverage of world-class swim meets (ESPN) and put them on a web site.  It’s fascinating to watch, especially the one or two slow-motion clips he’s put up. -S-

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – An interesting finding, especially for me in light of the fact that, while I’ve never participated in a triathlon (sp?), I do swim and bicycle avidly (6-10k yards and 50-100 miles weekly, respectively, on average).  As I’m sure someone else will volunteer if I don’t, the fact that some good runners bounce doesn’t make it good technique. Slow motion videos of world class and even world record swimmers almost invariably show flaws in their strokes.  When, yesterday, I concentrated on not bouncing, I felt more efficient and like I was using my energy to move myself forward and not up and down.  That seems a good thing to me.  Again, to make the analogy to swimming and also to support your point, one has to roll from side to side a good bit while doing the front crawl in order to move oneself forward at the best and most efficient speed, so I don’t rule out the possibility of some bounce being a good thing. -S-

I gave the example of the triathlon because it is a rare instance where you can see a great runner (Luc Van Lierde) run right next to a not so great runner (Thomas Hellriegel and Jurgen Zack).  In the footage you can see the great runners bounce.  But again that was just one example and not the entire case for the position.  If you were to watch an Olympic 10,000m race you could probably see the runners bounce (especcially when the camera follows along with the pack).  It would just be harder because they are all doing it. To get back to Tim Noakes work.  Basically his position that all great runners bounce is a result of a great deal of work by biomechanists and physiologists to determine what it is biomechanically that separates great runners from the rest.  In examining the data a great deal of variation was found, so great runners had a neutral footstrike, some pronated slightly, some ran with a relaxed armswing, some ran with their arms high at their sides.  All great runners bounced, and it comes down to physics.  I don’t have Tim’s work in front of me, so this next part is from memory.  It basically works like this: When viewed from a biomechanics standpoint two things differentiate speed in a runner.  One is stride length (measured in meters per stride) the other is turnover (measured in strides per min).  If a runner were to have the longest stride length and the fastest turnover he or she would be the fastest in the race.  To have a long stride length one must have bounce because a long stride length means that the runner is not touching the ground for longer during the stride.  Now the longest stride length does not win the race, because a overly long stride can slow one down (you can’t accelerate in the air only decelerate).  So to be fastest a runner must be able to travel the furthest in a given time.  That means that biomechanically them must have the fastest combination of stride length and cadence. To get back to your swimming example, if a large number of world class swimmers had their stroke analyzed you would find a great deal of variation. All would probably make some errors in stroke mechanics, BUT they all would not make the same error.  Tim Noakes found that all great runners bounce. If it is an identifying factor between great and not great runners I don’t think it can be called an error. As for your personal experience, I assume that you are talking about your perception of improvement.  Did you measure your efficiency, HR, or even your actual vertical movement?  I have the benefit of working in the same institute as many of the top physiologists and biomechanists in the country and I was fortunate enough to have the opportunity to have my running technique analyzed.  Some of the mistakes I was making in form were things that I could not feel while running. On the other hand, bounce is good, but too much is bad so you might actually be a runner that previously had too much bounce and now you are bringing it to an appropriate level. Jeremy

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So you’re stating the opposing point of view here, that bounce is _good_? I am just passing along information presented by one of the world’s most respected experts on running.  I have never done research in this area, and biomechanics of running is not my area of expertise, but I have read a great deal of Tim Noakes work.  Anecdotally, I have noticed that during Ironman Hawaii ‘99, Lori Bowden (2:59 marathon off the bike), Luc Van Lierde (2:42 marathon off the bike) bounced and they both passed people that didn’t.  I think that it is harder to see while watching a race like Boston or New York because all the runners you see in the TV coverage will bounce. During Dr. Noakes presentation (and in many of his papers) he has pointed out that many elite runners (and fast running triathletes) show a great deal of variation in form, but the one constant was that they all bounced.

An interesting finding, especially for me in light of the fact that, while I’ve never participated in a triathlon (sp?), I do swim and bicycle avidly (6-10k yards and 50-100 miles weekly, respectively, on average).  As I’m sure someone else will volunteer if I don’t, the fact that some good runners bounce doesn’t make it good technique.  Slow motion videos of world class and even world record swimmers almost invariably show flaws in their strokes.  When, yesterday, I concentrated on not bouncing, I felt more efficient and like I was using my energy to move myself forward and not up and down.  That seems a good thing to me.  Again, to make the analogy to swimming and also to support your point, one has to roll from side to side a good bit while doing the front crawl in order to move oneself forward at the best and most efficient speed, so I don’t rule out the possibility of some bounce being a good thing. -S-

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So you’re stating the opposing point of view here, that bounce is _good_?

I am just passing along information presented by one of the world’s most respected experts on running.  I have never done research in this area, and biomechanics of running is not my area of expertise, but I have read a great deal of Tim Noakes work.  Anecdotally, I have noticed that during Ironman Hawaii ‘99, Lori Bowden (2:59 marathon off the bike), Luc Van Lierde (2:42 marathon off the bike) bounced and they both passed people that didn’t.  I think that it is harder to see while watching a race like Boston or New York because all the runners you see in the TV coverage will bounce. During Dr. Noakes presentation (and in many of his papers) he has pointed out that many elite runners (and fast running triathletes) show a great deal of variation in form, but the one constant was that they all bounced.

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Since cadence is already "up there", then your next goal should to "minimize" vertical motion.

At the 1998 Ironman Sports Medicine Conference, Dr. Timothy Noakes stated that the one thing that you can immediately see in a great runner is that they bounce. Jeremy

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So you’re stating the opposing point of view here, that bounce is _good_? -S- – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Since cadence is already "up there", then your next goal should to "minimize" vertical motion. At the 1998 Ironman Sports Medicine Conference, Dr. Timothy Noakes stated that the one thing that you can immediately see in a great runner is that they bounce. Jeremy

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Steve, To reduce vertical movement, the bouncing up and down, once you’ve arrived and shorter quicker steps.   When you’ve reduced your stride by increasing your cadence, the issue is in lifting the knees and not the whole body. This is when I talk about marching in place.  If you march in place, you touch down ball/heel.  Your body is moving up and down, you’re just lifting your knees.  If you lean from the ankle and keep the body erect you’ll notice that you’re still lifting your knees but now they’re touching down a few inches in front of the 0ther foot but it’s still under your center of gravity.  Check out my repost on running down hill. The image of your body as a broom handle balanced in your palm and starting to fall forward.  If you keep up with the lean of the broom handle it keeps on falling as long as you keep up with it.  It doesn’t bounce.  The earth is the palm of the hand and if you keep on falling and placing your feet down after lifting the knees, you’ll find that you’ll have minimal vertical bounce. Remember if you only lift your center of gravity a half inch more than needed with each step, then every 24 steps you have lifted your body weight one foot up and not gotten anywhere.  That’s why once you learn to run smoothly, without any other additional training you are able to run faster because you’re not wasting any excess energy but turning it into running faster. During your runs, I’d suggest that you stop and massage out the calves and hamstrings along the way.  The idea is that during your training runs, you’re looking at working  on training form.  So if you stop 4 or 5 times to loosen up your muscles as you practice you new form, then start when you start again, you should find that gradually your running time is faster…and amost importantly, the end of your runs are not tiring since you’ve loosened up the muscles during the entire run so that you’re not practicing bad running habits and form during the later parts of your run when  you’re tired. Regarding your shoulders, your head is moving up and down but you are probably feeling the vertical more in the shoulders as you come down. Ozzie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Since cadence is already "up there", then your next goal should to "minimize" vertical motion. Quickest way to test yourself is to wear a billed cap. Adjust the visor so that it intersects the horizon along your sight line. The amount of relative "vertical displacement" of bill-horizon with each stride gives a good idea of form faults. I did my long run this morning and took the opportunity to see how much I bounce around.  In no particular order:  *  My glasses suffice to see how much my head is bouncing.  *  Focusing on reducing the bounce at my head helps – I bounce  *  less, and I feel like my expenditure of energy is directed  *  more towards moving me forward.  *  I watched my shadow on a few occassions when the sun was behind  *  me.  Very interesting.  Even though my _head_ isn’t moving much  *  at all, my shoulders are moving up and down quite a bit.  What,  *  if anything, does this signify? I ran an unmeasured distance today, running about a mile to the local multi-use path then on it until my total run time reached 33:17 and I reached one of the points where I’d considered turning around.  My return leg was 1:10 slower than the outbound one, total running time of 1:07:44.  Estimated distance, assuming an 8:20 overall pace, of 8.1 miles.  Legs are a little sore, I’m a little tired, keeping what form I have for the last few miles was tough – it was hard enough to run the distance.  I’m definitely out of practice at this long a run but for a 5k I guess it’s not all that big a deal. Since my next long run will be three weeks before my 5k, I’m thinking of going for a slightly shorter distance and a slightly faster pace, perhaps an easy walk/run warmup to the 10k course start and then try to run it at 8:00 all the way through. Steve "-3.50 diopters" Freides

– In health and on the run, Ozzie Gontang Maintainer – rec.running FAQ Director, San Diego Marathon Clinic, est. 1975 Mindful Running:   http://www.mindfulness.com

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Since cadence is already "up there", then your next goal should to "minimize" vertical motion. Quickest way to test yourself is to wear a billed cap. Adjust the visor so that it intersects the horizon along your sight line. The amount of relative "vertical displacement" of bill-horizon with each stride gives a good idea of form faults. I did my long run this morning and took the opportunity to see how much I bounce around.  In no particular order: *  My glasses suffice to see how much my head is bouncing. *  Focusing on reducing the bounce at my head helps – I bounce *  less, and I feel like my expenditure of energy is directed *  more towards moving me forward. *  I watched my shadow on a few occassions when the sun was behind *  me.  Very interesting.  Even though my _head_ isn’t moving much *  at all, my shoulders are moving up and down quite a bit.  What,

Shoulders up/down ‘quite a bit’ mans there’s work to be done! *  if anything, does this signify?

Signifying that you are ducking your head out of phase with body to keep Glasses from bouncing? Unconsciously? Try the cap with bill. Run upright, head up letting head move up/down in phase with the body. Visualize a line attached to the top of your head, forcing you to keep it upright at all times. Then, if able to sustain the upright position,  the magnitude of  relative vertical motion will be quite apparent from the horizon-bill relationship.   Steve "-3.50 diopters" Freides

Denny – 3.00 diopter.

Response:

Since cadence is already "up there", then your next goal should to "minimize" vertical motion. Quickest way to test yourself is to wear a billed cap. Adjust the visor so that it intersects the horizon along your sight line. The amount of relative "vertical displacement" of bill-horizon with each stride gives a good idea of form faults.

I did my long run this morning and took the opportunity to see how much I bounce around.  In no particular order:  *  My glasses suffice to see how much my head is bouncing.  *  Focusing on reducing the bounce at my head helps – I bounce  *  less, and I feel like my expenditure of energy is directed  *  more towards moving me forward.  *  I watched my shadow on a few occassions when the sun was behind  *  me.  Very interesting.  Even though my _head_ isn’t moving much  *  at all, my shoulders are moving up and down quite a bit.  What,  *  if anything, does this signify? I ran an unmeasured distance today, running about a mile to the local multi-use path then on it until my total run time reached 33:17 and I reached one of the points where I’d considered turning around.  My return leg was 1:10 slower than the outbound one, total running time of 1:07:44.  Estimated distance, assuming an 8:20 overall pace, of 8.1 miles.  Legs are a little sore, I’m a little tired, keeping what form I have for the last few miles was tough – it was hard enough to run the distance.  I’m definitely out of practice at this long a run but for a 5k I guess it’s not all that big a deal. Since my next long run will be three weeks before my 5k, I’m thinking of going for a slightly shorter distance and a slightly faster pace, perhaps an easy walk/run warmup to the 10k course start and then try to run it at 8:00 all the way through. Steve "-3.50 diopters" Freides

Response:

Question:

I’m not sure I understand what you mean – are you suggesting that a somewhat high max HR for a trained athlete of a given age may reflect overtraining? Don’t tell that to the 61 year old triathlete I tested at Ohio State, who got to 180 during a VO2max test just a month or so before he won his age group in Hawaii. <grin FWIW, my personal experience is that when I have "overreached" (the term currently in vogue in the scientific literature, since no one has been able to reliably push athletes into an "overtrained" state in lab studies, despite up to doubling the volume of training for several weeks at a time), I can’t get up to maximum heart rate, i.e., the highest value is abnormally low, not abnormally high. Other people apparently experience the same phenomenom… I would agree. However, if you find that this is the area of your max hr, it’s possible that it reflects overtraining. (Of course it’s possible to have your max hr peak at this level and be normal.) I would say that in about half the cases like this I’ve seen, overtraining was a real possibility. Phil Maffetone

– Andrew Coggan

Response:

<<I’m not sure I understand what you mean – are you suggesting that a somewhat high max HR for a trained athlete of a given age may reflect overtraining? Don’t tell that to the 61 year old triathlete I tested at Ohio State, who got to 180 during a VO2max test just a month or so before he won his age group in Hawaii. <grin Yes, with emphasis on the "may." Certainly the overtraining syndrome (another good name to describe this phenomenon) is not well defined and making a clinical judgement about it sometimes is tricky. In the earlier phase of overtraining, there is an over active sympathetic nervous system (I refer to as the second stage). This typically results in a higher training hr (and resting and max hr too). In some cases, before this overtraining syndrome produces performance reduction, there may be improved performance. This may be due to increased muscle power, for example, due to increased sympathetic activity (like drinking a lot of coffee), or for other reasons. <<FWIW, my personal experience is that when I have "overreached" (the term currently in vogue in the scientific literature, since no one has been able to reliably push athletes into an "overtrained" state in lab studies, despite up to doubling the volume of training for several weeks at a time), I can’t get up to maximum heart rate, i.e., the highest value is abnormally low, not abnormally high. Other people apparently experience the same phenomenom… I’ve seen the same in an office setting (on a treadmill and trainer, for example). But it’s more difficult to get the heart rate up to max in these environments. Not that it’s necessary to do this to end up overtrained. But I’m referring to an athlete’s normal environment, which is where almost all my experience lies. Also, the first indications of the overtraining syndrome may takemuch  longer than a few weeks. Phil Maffetone

Response:

I’ve just completed a run MHR test using a treadmill and would appreciate some feed back from anyone who uses a HRM and has any experiance trying this form of test. I know to be really accurate I would need to get lab tested but that is not possible so I’m trying the next best solution. I warmed up for 15 mins, 5 on a rower and 10 on the treadmill to bring my HR up to about 60%, then stretched out for 3-4 mins. Got back onto the treadmill started the record mode on my HRM and steadily increased the speed until it was at max 14.4km/hr my HR was at 75% of (age adjusted) MHR. Now I increase the inclined by 4% on 30 sec intervals until I think I can’t keep going and give it one last burst then jump off. After 5 mins cool down and stretch, I repeat the above. On the first test my recorded MHR was 194 bpm. On the second my MHR was 208 bpm. My question is given that the general "rule of thumb" is 220bpm – age for MHR, is it possible that the second test MHR of 208 bpm is correct or a recording error. The 2 recordings prior to and after the MHR read 174,200.208,188,180 and the recording interval was 5 secs. the time interval shown on the recording just prior to the MHR matches an incline raise. I have tried this test about a year ago and achieved a MHR of 197 bpm and at that time I though there was still more to come but didn’t do a repeat test after 5 mins. Background: I’m 37, Male and have good general health and have just complete the GFT ironman, my running HR has always been higher at any given excertion compared to other people I train with.  Thanks for reading and any help.     Iain Sim. Ayrodynamics, Scotland. There is no limit out there

Response:

<<Given the extremely rapid changes in heart rate reported by your monitor, I’m very much inclined to believe that the 208 is incorrect. I would agree. However, if you find that this is the area of your max hr, it’s possible that it reflects overtraining. (Of course it’s possible to have your max hr peak at this level and be normal.) I would say that in about half the cases like this I’ve seen, overtraining was a real possibility. Phil Maffetone

Response:

Iain, Given the extremely rapid changes in heart rate reported by your monitor, I’m very much inclined to believe that the 208 is incorrect. Maximal exercise is the most extreme challenege normally placed on the cardiovascular system, and as you approach maximum heart rate and maximum oxygen uptake, everything is usually changing quite slowly as the body tries to respond to this demand – heart rate, for example, usually only rises a couple of beats/min during the last min or two of a well-designed and executed test. I like the protocol you used to warm-up for the treadmill test, but you probably want to greatly decrease the rate at which you raise the grade once you’re ready to go. By incrementing the grade by 4% every 30 seconds starting at 70% of (predicted) maximum heart rate, you’ve raised the intensity from ~60% of VO2max to 100% of VO2max in just 2.5 min. While you can reach VO2max and maximum heart rate in such a short time period, it is quite stressful and requires a lot of motivation. A more typical protocol would entail raising the grade 2% every 2 min (with perhaps a 4% increment at the first stage). Of course, the other suggestion would be to make sure that your heart rate monitor is working properly, and not simply responding to movement artifact, but I expect that you’ve already thought of this… Andrew ("age 40, maximum heart rate 170") Coggan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve just completed a run MHR test using a treadmill and would appreciate some feed back from anyone who uses a HRM and has any experiance trying this form of test. I know to be really accurate I would need to get lab tested but that is not possible so I’m trying the next best solution. I warmed up for 15 mins, 5 on a rower and 10 on the treadmill to bring my HR up to about 60%, then stretched out for 3-4 mins. Got back onto the treadmill started the record mode on my HRM and steadily increased the speed until it was at max 14.4km/hr my HR was at 75% of (age adjusted) MHR. Now I increase the inclined by 4% on 30 sec intervals until I think I can’t keep going and give it one last burst then jump off. After 5 mins cool down and stretch, I repeat the above. On the first test my recorded MHR was 194 bpm. On the second my MHR was 208 bpm. My question is given that the general "rule of thumb" is 220bpm – age for MHR, is it possible that the second test MHR of 208 bpm is correct or a recording error. The 2 recordings prior to and after the MHR read 174,200.208,188,180 and the recording interval was 5 secs. the time interval shown on the recording just prior to the MHR matches an incline raise. I have tried this test about a year ago and achieved a MHR of 197 bpm and at that time I though there was still more to come but didn’t do a repeat test after 5 mins. Background: I’m 37, Male and have good general health and have just complete the GFT ironman, my running HR has always been higher at any given excertion compared to other people I train with.  Thanks for reading and any help. Iain Sim. Ayrodynamics, Scotland. There is no limit out there

Response:

I think if you calculated some target heart rates (see http://members.spree.com/supercoach/hrcalc.htm) that you’d find a given target HR isn’t very sensitive to the value of your Max HR.. Knowing that, I’d say just pick a number, any number, provided it’s close.  In your case I’d suggest 200bpm. Then go train consistently in the correct zones — mostly aerobic, with some focused high intensity work as the season approaches — and I’ll bet your race results will approach your goals. Take care- Mike – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve just completed a run MHR test using a treadmill and would appreciate some feed back from anyone who uses a HRM and has any experiance trying this form of test. I know to be really accurate I would need to get lab tested but that is not possible so I’m trying the next best solution. I warmed up for 15 mins, 5 on a rower and 10 on the treadmill to bring my HR up to about 60%, then stretched out for 3-4 mins. Got back onto the treadmill started the record mode on my HRM and steadily increased the speed until it was at max 14.4km/hr my HR was at 75% of (age adjusted) MHR. Now I increase the inclined by 4% on 30 sec intervals until I think I can’t keep going and give it one last burst then jump off. After 5 mins cool down and stretch, I repeat the above. On the first test my recorded MHR was 194 bpm. On the second my MHR was 208 bpm. My question is given that the general "rule of thumb" is 220bpm – age for MHR, is it possible that the second test MHR of 208 bpm is correct or a recording error. The 2 recordings prior to and after the MHR read 174,200.208,188,180 and the recording interval was 5 secs. the time interval shown on the recording just prior to the MHR matches an incline raise. I have tried this test about a year ago and achieved a MHR of 197 bpm and at that time I though there was still more to come but didn’t do a repeat test after 5 mins. Background: I’m 37, Male and have good general health and have just complete the GFT ironman, my running HR has always been higher at any given excertion compared to other people I train with.  Thanks for reading and any help. Iain Sim. Ayrodynamics, Scotland. There is no limit out there

Response:

Question:

{begin rant} Damnit!!!  Stop it!!! I keep seeing all of these great deals and I don’t have the cash for any of them!!  Every day I come in here and see all of this stuff for sale and I can’t buy any of it. Please, stop it.  For me…  so I don’t go nuts and rip off a bank to buy this stuff. {end rand} —  Salvador Santolucito III

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -{begin rant} Damnit!!!  Stop it!!! I keep seeing all of these great deals and I don’t have the cash for any of them!!  Every day I come in here and see all of this stuff for sale and I can’t buy any of it. Please, stop it.  For me…  so I don’t go nuts and rip off a bank to buy this stuff. {end rand} —  Salvador Santolucito III

Heh, heh…torturesome, isn’t it. Somehow, I see you coming into a good job after college, coming into a pile of money, and getting a revolutionary beam bike that weighs only 15 pounds, a $200 pair of shoes that eliminates all leg injuries and a cutting edge  hydrophobic wetsuit  that does the swimming for you. You’ll get your shot soon Sal. Patience is a virtue. You’ll get there.                           |26      | IMC’96: 10:36:37          |   Fe   |   IMNZ, IMC ‘99 IMC’97: 10:42:53          |        |                  "THE BEST ELEMENT OF RACING"

Response:

Hey sal, Isn’t that what credit cards and financial aid are for? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – {begin rant} Damnit!!!  Stop it!!! I keep seeing all of these great deals and I don’t have the cash for any of them!!  Every day I come in here and see all of this stuff for sale and I can’t buy any of it. Please, stop it.  For me…  so I don’t go nuts and rip off a bank to buy this stuff. {end rand} —  Salvador Santolucito III

Response:

In the mean time, can I interest you in a bridge???? ed m. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – {begin rant} Damnit!!!  Stop it!!! I keep seeing all of these great deals and I don’t have the cash for any of them!!  Every day I come in here and see all of this stuff for sale and I can’t buy any of it. Please, stop it.  For me…  so I don’t go nuts and rip off a bank to buy this stuff. {end rand} —  Salvador Santolucito III Heh, heh…torturesome, isn’t it. Somehow, I see you coming into a good job after college, coming into a pile of money, and getting a revolutionary beam bike that weighs only 15 pounds, a $200 pair of shoes that eliminates all leg injuries and a cutting edge  hydrophobic wetsuit  that does the swimming for you. You’ll get your shot soon Sal. Patience is a virtue. You’ll get there.                           |26      | IMC’96: 10:36:37          |   Fe   |   IMNZ, IMC ‘99 IMC’97: 10:42:53          |        |                  "THE BEST ELEMENT OF RACING"

Response:

Hmmm, I wonder if anyone has some donatable just 1 yr outdated cool stuff for Sal.  I know he woudln’t squeeze into my old Carnacs, but I’m sure y’all are upgrading to new tech just as fast as I. I always donate my old stuff; and it’s not even that old !

Response:

Any kid who can finagle his parents into buying him a new bike and a $200 HRM in the same year needs no donations from me.  Sal, I think you need to give me a lesson in sweet talking.  I’m running out of excuses to use on my wife. I’m just kidding damn it! Stacy Hills Reston, VA

|Hmmm, I wonder if anyone has some donatable just 1 yr outdated cool stuff |for Sal.  I know he woudln’t squeeze into my old Carnacs, but I’m sure y’all |are upgrading to new tech just as fast as I. | |I always donate my old stuff; and it’s not even that old ! | | |

Response:

Lynne: Perhaps I could get you to talk to Tri 2 Fli about his 56cm Felt and my need for a triathlon bike… Regards, Kevin Mitchell Toronto, Canada – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hmmm, I wonder if anyone has some donatable just 1 yr outdated cool stuff for Sal.  I know he woudln’t squeeze into my old Carnacs, but I’m sure y’all are upgrading to new tech just as fast as I. I always donate my old stuff; and it’s not even that old !

Response:

Question:

A freind of mine (no really) & fellow triathlete (15 years) has been having blood in his urine for a period of time.  He states that it is noticeably worse after his long runs.  He is 44 years old and runs about 45 – 50 miles weekly.  He saw a doctor who did some tests (?) she placed him on antibiotics and is scheduled for a revisit in two weeks.  She said that it may be kindey stones (small ones) being jarred while running. Question: has anyone of you experienced this or know of an athlete who has? What was the approach. John

Response:

Blood in the urine (hematuria) is common among runners and cyclists either due to urethral irritation(cycling) or red blood breakdown most likely due to repeated foot sole trauma also known "march hematuria (running) Almost always benign and short lived. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A freind of mine (no really) & fellow triathlete (15 years) has been having blood in his urine for a period of time.  He states that it is noticeably worse after his long runs.  He is 44 years old and runs about 45 – 50 miles weekly.  He saw a doctor who did some tests (?) she placed him on antibiotics and is scheduled for a revisit in two weeks.  She said that it may be kindey stones (small ones) being jarred while running. Question: has anyone of you experienced this or know of an athlete who has? What was the approach. John

Response:

If one of those little suckers breaks lose, he’ll know what pain really is!  Believe me I know – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A freind of mine (no really) & fellow triathlete (15 years) has been having blood in his urine for a period of time.  He states that it is noticeably worse after his long runs.  He is 44 years old and runs about 45 – 50 miles weekly.  He saw a doctor who did some tests (?) she placed him on antibiotics and is scheduled for a revisit in two weeks.  She said that it may be kindey stones (small ones) being jarred while running. Question: has anyone of you experienced this or know of an athlete who has? What was the approach. John

Response:

Question:

As an attorney who has passed the Patent and Trademark Bar, I feel compelled to comment on the this thread. The Ironman Triathlons (Hawaii, Canada, Roth, etc) are "owned" by a private company  <WTC who, unlike Less and his cronies, don’t hide the fact that they are a business. They own the rights to the "Ironman" name.  It’s their registered trademark <I believe that is the correct legal term and no-one can use it in connection with a triathlon except them. That’s why the Great Floridian can’t use the term Ironman in their event. It’s an "ironman distance", but not an Ironman.

This is correct.  You, me, the WTC or the ITU for that matter can trademark and/or copyright and/or servicemark a word(s) or name.  The legal right to do this depends on the originality and novelty of the word or words.   For example, you can not trademark the word "Yellow", but you can trademark a made up word such as "Clopardo." As a word becomes more and more common and used in everyday practice, a company can lose its rights to the word.  A perfect example for this is "Escalator."  In the 20s and 30s Escalator was a trademarked word for the Escalator company. After a while the word became commonplace and the trademark rights were lost. "Xerxo"  went through similar growing pains about 10-15 years ago.  To this day, people still use the word Xerxo synonomous with the word "copy."       I intend on doing the Great Floridian next year, and let me tell you that when I cross that finish line I will have earned the name IRONMAN and not you or your little dog are going to say that I didn’t!

I did the GFT this year.  Great race, and I consider myself to have completed an ironman triathlon.  Have fun at GFT. No one can own or copywrite a word contrary to your beliefs. <sigh Tell ya’ what, A.J. Organize a triathlon. Name it the "North Carolina Ironman."  Get sued by WTC.

This is correct.  WTC can sue someone who uses a protected trademark.  In addition to an injunction from using the name, money damages can be awarded. Eric  Weiss GFT 97 – Completed IMC 98 – Considering

Response:

While all of this is really quite interesting banter….I urge everyone to read WTC’s actual "complaint" against ITU which can be found at www. ironmantri.com. You will see that this issue is not about the use of the word "ironman" at all, but is instead about ITU’s attempt to monopolize the sport (which WTC contends is in violation of U.S. antitrust law). WTC’s allegations concerning ITU’s conduct as a business on the one hand, while also acting as the sport’s international governing body on the other, raise serious questions as to ITU’s and Les McDonald’s true motives.  WTC’s complaint also contains a charge of defamation based on  the ITU’s public comments which alleged that WTC "bought" certain members of the USAT’s board of directors their seats….so much for the vote I cast, if we are to believe the ITU!  The complaint further outlines the coercive tactics of the ITU in attempting to force USAT to withdraw sanctioning for the 97 IMH in the 11th hour, some 8 months after it had been granted.  How many of us knew that the ITU forced the DTU (Germany) to include in its national team contracts a clause requiring them not to participate in IMH (or face DQ from its Olympic qualition system).   It also sheds interesting light on Les McDonald’s use of "persona non grata" tactics against his political enemies.  It reads as if the Nixon administration was running the sport.  If any of this behavior by our sports governing body is true, we should all be deeply troubled.   So, to make this point with greater clarity, the WTC’s suit has very little to do with the word "Ironman" and a lot to do with the future of our sport, as a field of competion and as business marketplace.  I encourage everyone to read the complaint (all 30 pages) and support WTC. Steve

Response:

SDKelley encourages us to read the actual WTC complaint against ITU, and I respond… Hear, hear. I’ve been saying this all along. I just finished reading the whole complaint, and other than certain lawyerly attacks upon the language, it makes very interesting reading. Many of the allegations are not backed up with specifics, but such specifics must substantiated into evidence anyway through discovery. I’m assuming that when the time comes, the WTC will be able to deliver the goods. But my point has been the same in all these discussions. It ain’t about drafting. The word "drafting" never appears once in the complaint. It’s about the ITU wanting the WTC’s piece of the TV and sponsorship pie. And using their governance authority to further their business interests, which is immoral, and, it is to be hoped, illegal. The WTC also describes many examples of the ITU targeting other individuals and companies that were in their way. Remember the International Triathlon Grand Prix? Ever wonder why it ain’t around any more? You get the picture. Even better is its compelling attack on the ITU’s system for Olympic qualification, which usurps the authority of the national governing bodies and consolidates all Olympic qualification into points earned at races in which the ITU has a business interest. Naughty, naughty. And it goes on from there. The complaint is very sympathetic to USAT, and clearly establishes that USAT was blackmailed into revoking the ITU’s sanction by the ITU’s threat of witholding their letter of good standing from the USOC. All of this could damage out sport, but only temporarily. It’s like the pain of cutting out necrotic tissue. It hurts for a while, but without that pain, you eventually die. Go WTC! Rick Denney Take what you want and leave the rest.

Response:

While all of this is really quite interesting banter….I urge everyone to read WTC’s actual "complaint" against ITU which can be found at www. ironmantri.com. You will see that this issue is not about the use of the word "ironman" at all,but is instead about ITU’s attempt to monopolize the sport (which WTC contends is in violation of U.S. antitrust law).

* snip* Steve

Ummm…. Thanks for the pointer, Steve, but, um, it’s really not necessary as part of this spinoff thread.  RST has been well aware of the WTC lawsuit and its issues since the original press release was posted directly on the newsgroup by WTC even before it showed up on their website. — "’Be a terrific innovation if you could get your mind to stretch a little further than the next wise crack." "Y’know, I tried that once, but it didn’t snap back into place." —Katharine Hepburn & Eve Arden in "Stage Door" (1937)    

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – While all of this is really quite interesting banter….I urge everyone to read WTC’s actual "complaint" against ITU which can be found at www. ironmantri.com. You will see that this issue is not about the use of the word "ironman" at all,but is instead about ITU’s attempt to monopolize the sport (which WTC contends is in violation of U.S. antitrust law). * snip* Steve Ummm…. Thanks for the pointer, Steve, but, um, it’s really not necessary as part of this spinoff thread.  RST has been well aware of the WTC lawsuit and its issues since the original press release was posted directly on the newsgroup by WTC even before it showed up on their website.

…except that now that I think about it, I think I was confusing two different threads and Steve actually was right to bring THAT thread back to the original topic of the WTC/ITU lawsuit, so somebody hit me upside the head for shooting off my big keyboard again. duh. Sorry!! <:{ — "’Be a terrific innovation if you could get your mind to stretch a little further than the next wise crack." "Y’know, I tried that once, but it didn’t snap back into place." —Katharine Hepburn & Eve Arden in "Stage Door" (1937)    

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – While all of this is really quite interesting banter….I urge everyone to read WTC’s actual "complaint" against ITU which can be found at www. ironmantri.com. You will see that this issue is not about the use of the word "ironman" at all,but is instead about ITU’s attempt to monopolize the sport (which WTC contends is in violation of U.S. antitrust law). * snip* Steve Ummm…. Thanks for the pointer, Steve, but, um, it’s really not necessary as part of this spinoff thread.  RST has been well aware of the WTC lawsuit and its issues since the original press release was posted directly on the newsgroup by WTC even before it showed up on their website. …except that now that I think about it, I think I was confusing two different threads and Steve actually was right to bring THAT thread back to the original topic of the WTC/ITU lawsuit, so somebody hit me upside the head for shooting off my big keyboard again. duh. Sorry!!

Actually, I think I’m the original culprit.  <g All I meant to do was offer a minor clarification regarding the term Ironman.  It has nothing to do with the lawsuit (other than the additionally peripheral topic of "World Championship" terminology.) Back to the real topic…. Mike "TriBop" Tennent Remove "nospam." for email reply IMC ‘98 IronVirgins Website http://www.gate.net/~wbrunner/imc_iv.htm WebRunner Running Page and my Model Railroad page http://www.gate.net/~wbrunner/index.html

Response:

The Ironman Triathlons (Hawaii, Canada, Roth, etc) are "owned" by a private company  <WTC who, unlike Less and his cronies, don’t hide the fact that they are a business. They own the rights to the "Ironman" name.  It’s their registered trademark <I believe that is the correct legal term and no-one can use it in connection with a triathlon except them. That’s why the Great Floridian can’t use the term Ironman in their event. It’s an "ironman distance", but not an Ironman. Mike,    I intend on doing the Great Floridian next year, and let me tell you that when I cross that finish line I will have earned the name IRONMAN and not you or your little dog are going to say that I didn’t!

I don’t own a dog. <g And my best wishes to you at GF. It’s a great race put on by an outstanding organization. When you cross the finish line, you’ll be an ironman. I didn’t say you wouldn’t be. No one can own or copywrite a word contrary to your beliefs.

<sigh Tell ya’ what, A.J. Organize a triathlon. Name it the "North Carolina Ironman."  Get sued by WTC. Yes, you may "own" words when it’s part of your trademarked name. It’s done all the time. WTC has legal rights to the name Ironman (capital "I")  when it’s associated with triathlon.  WTC’s predecessors created the term "Ironman" and trademarked it. WTC is the current owner of that trademark. Which is why they would sue anybody naming a race the "<insert name Ironman." A trademark has to be protected or it’s lost.  And that "Ironman" name is a very valuble asset.  WTC may even object to another race using the term ironman in their race literature, I don’t know. They could probably enforce it if they chose. There are other "ironman" races. There are only a handful of official "Ironman" races with that term in their title. They are specifically sanctioned by WTC to use that name.  No-one else can call themselves an "Ironman" (note the capital "I") w/o that sanction. If you don’t believe me, ask Fred Sommers. Ask him why he doesn’t have the term "Ironman" in the title of his ironman race. Ask Jason why he’s asking for permission to use the term on the RST IMC jersies. I didn’t say that the other races aren’t "ironmans", or are any less of a race, or that you’re not an "ironman"  for finishing it.  I was addressing a very specific issue – the legal right to the name "Ironman." <snipped    So basically your point is that if I line up at a starting line for a marathon and it is not recognized by the USATF as an marathon, that I am not running a marathon, just a marathon length race?

No. The term marathon long ago passed into general use. The NYRRC would sue anybody else trying to stage another "New York Marathon." And the owners of a certain other race might take exception to another "Boston Marathon." Those are their trademarked names for their events. BTW, if Phidippedes’s  family had just had the foresight to start a race called "The Marathon" and trademarked the term "Marathon" in relationship to 26.2 mile races,  any race wanting calling itself a "M"arathon would have to be sanctioned by them.  <g If this is true then answer this question for me. If a tree falls in the woods and no one is around, does anyone here it?

That’s easy. Huey and Dewey were twins, except for Morton – and he was this color. <For the life of me, I can’t  figure out what the tree falling question has to do with the topic at hand… Mike "TriBop" Tennent Remove "nospam." for email reply IMC ‘98 IronVirgins Website http://www.gate.net/~wbrunner/imc_iv.htm WebRunner Running Page and my Model Railroad page http://www.gate.net/~wbrunner/index.html

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The Ironman Triathlons (Hawaii, Canada, Roth, etc) are "owned" by a private company  <WTC  They own the rights to the "Ironman" name.  It’s their registered trademark <I believe that is the correct legal term and no-one can use it in connection with a triathlon except them. That’s why the Great Floridian can’t use the term Ironman in their event. It’s an "ironman distance", but not an Ironman. Mike, I intend on doing the Great Floridian next year, and let me tell you that when I cross that finish line I will have earned the name IRONMAN and not you or your little dog are going to say that I didn’t! No one can own or copywrite a word contrary to your beliefs.

Whoa, chill out, TriFreak!  Mike in no way implied that he believed the accomplishment of completing the Great Floridian was any less than that of completing an "official" Ironman.  He was merely explaining the facts of WTC’s copyright of the term "Ironman".  Sheesh, where did Mike’s "beliefs" come into play here?  This is not a case of Mike’s "beliefs", but rather a case of the legal FACT of WTC’s having established the term "Ironman" as their registered trademark. It is funny that the USAT (formally Tri-Fed) recognizes it as an ironman race, not an ironman length race.

What do you mean by this?  USAT knows that GF is an Ironman-distance but is not an "official" (i.e., WTC sanctioned) "I"ronman race.  As we all know, the name really makes no difference to the accomplishment involved. Funny, they are in charge but you know more than they do. Also it counts towards the overall standings.

Umm….why don’t you try running Mike’s post by Steve Locke or anyone else at USAT and see if they think what he’s written was in error?  Because they will tell you that what he wrote is correct.  Talk about killing the messenger! So basically your point is that if I line up at a starting line for a marathon and it is not recognized by the USATF as an marathon, that I am not running a marathon, just a marathon length race?

No, that was not Mike’s point at all.  Look, Mike made absolutely no judgment about the viability of the athletic achievement.  He merely communicated the legal technicalities of the NAME "Ironman".  That’s it!   "People will only be as stupid as you let them be!"

Well, the Internet certainly lets people say whatever they want to…. — "’Be a terrific innovation if you could get your mind to stretch a little further than the next wise crack." "Y’know, I tried that once, but it didn’t snap back into place." —Katharine Hepburn & Eve Arden in "Stage Door" (1937)    

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I hope WTC kicks ITU’s ass. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ironman Triathlon Owner Files Lawsuit Alleging International Triathlon Union Guilty of U.S. Antitrust Violations Monday, November 17, 1997 TAMPA, Fla.

Question:

Bottom line, i wouldn’t trust any carbon wheels. They’re dicey on decents and  in cross winds, and more fragile than aluminum rims. I go with ventos. Wheel  weight doesn’t make as big a difference as you might think in a  triathlon…but boy these manufacturers have you boys trained!  Seriously,  maybe for circut racing and criteriums where you have to accelerate around the  frequent turns, but not for triathlons. Don’t expect 100 grams of saved weight  to shave 1 minute off your 40K. not even 30 seconds, probably not even 15. but  it thats worth $1000+  to you, go for it. Chris  _O_                 I       I     I_I/I_I          

Response:

Bottom line, i wouldn’t trust any carbon wheels. They’re dicey on decents and in cross winds, and more fragile than aluminum rims. I go with ventos. Wheel weight doesn’t make as big a difference as you might think in a triathlon…but boy these manufacturers have you boys trained!  Seriously, maybe for circut racing and criteriums where you have to accelerate around the frequent turns, but not for triathlons. Don’t expect 100 grams of saved weight to shave 1 minute off your 40K. not even 30 seconds, probably not even 15. but it thats worth $1000+  to you, go for it.

Chris– I appreciate your feedback on the Nimble wheels.  I must sincerely ask: What is your basis for the comments about carbon wheels’ "dicey-ness" on decents and cross winds?  Is it from experience or from what you have been told by people who have ridden on carbon wheels?  I ask these questions seriously, not intending to ruffle feathers.  Just need to know so I can make an informed purchasing decision.  Thanks. Greg Pressler

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I’ve heard the best thing about the wheels is the ad campaign they’ve got in  the magazines.  I’m told (from sources who attended the west coast expo) that  they are –as advertised–better than spinergy and others in those parameters  they (nimble folks) chose.  The impression at the expo was they are too  brittle, however,  to be a serious wheel. Don’t know…passing on what I’ve heard. Kevin Petit

Response:

I’ve heard the best thing about the wheels is the ad campaign they’ve got in the magazines.  I’m told (from sources who attended the west coast expo) that they are –as advertised–better than spinergy and others in those parameters they (nimble folks) chose.  The impression at the expo was they are too brittle, however,  to be a serious wheel. Don’t know…passing on what I’ve heard.

Very interesting.  This is the first real feedback I’ve heard on the Nimble wheels.  I’m interested in the term you use, "brittle."  Does this mean that they have a tendency to break, bow, or otherwise bend out of shape easily??  I’m very anxious to hear more feedback if you have any.  Thanks. Greg Pressler

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In article In any case, it seems that these wheels do not suffer from cross-wind-related problems as do deep-section aero wheels.

huh? QRman

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Dan, I wondered if you would catch that one, knowing your fondness for wheels like the HED deep, etc. Just based on what I’ve seen and heard. I still overstated the point, however. I should have said that the Nimble wheels seem, based on their limited testing, to respond to a gusty cross wind more like a conventional wheel and less like an extreme deep-section wheel. I didn’t mean to imply that all deep-section aero wheels perform badly in cross-winds. But they surely behave differently, and whether that is bad depends on the sensibilities of the rider. None of us have seen the Nimble wheels in person, yet, so we are all still speculating, which I hope _was_ clear in my post. In any case, it seems that these wheels do not suffer from cross-wind-related problems as do deep-section aero wheels. huh? QRman

Rick Denney Take what you want and leave the rest.

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Anybody have any feedback on the new nimble wheels? RTLW, Erik

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Other than being outrageously expensive? John (Faith) Ft. Washington, MD

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Anybody have any feedback on the new nimble wheels? RTLW, Erik

I just spent some time reading Nimble’s web page. They look interesting to me. Their discussion is remarkably free of the usual brochure B.S., and I think their results are credible. But they only report certain kinds of tests, and I’d like to see a wider range of conditions. In any case, it seems that these wheels do not suffer from cross-wind-related problems as do deep-section aero wheels. They accomplish this by minimizing side exposure (relatively shallow rim) and using an airfoil spoke designed for an angular wind. If the spoke is optimized for the 21-degree crosswind they report (which is a very reasonable cross-wind angle and would be sensed by most cyclists as a direct side-wind), then how does it perform in a 10-degree cross-wind? Some curves would be nice. They also don’t say if their cross-wind drag values are lateral wind loads, longitudinal wind loads, or axial loads. The first is important for handling, and the second is important for aerodynamic efficiency. They are probably reporting axial loads, which have to be broken down into their constituent longitundinal and lateral vectors. I’m particularly intrigued by their very low mass and moment of intertia. That would make the wheel responsive (easy to accelerate). With the shallow-section rim and only three spokes, I’m curious about rim strength for someone of my weight (195 pounds). Especially given the lack of an aluminum hoop (ala Spinergy). Although I would be substantially lighter after emptying my wallet of $1100. I’m also slightly concerned about the aluminum front axle, and very glad they used steel on the rear wheel. By the way, I would not listen to the blanket statements about carbon wheels. I’ve ridden them in all conditions without every feeling "dicey." I just returned from California where I cruised down some significant hills with Spinergies. After hitting a sharp bump on one ride, I felt like the front end was a little wobbly, and I wondered if the wheel broke. After two or three miles, slightly interrupted by refreshment at the Pozo Saloon, I discovered the cause of my discomfort. The stem was loose. I had not tightened it properly when I assembled my travel bike the previous evening. Oops! In strong cross-winds, the Spinergies to behave differently than conventional wheels, although they are still under good control (for me, at least). But the Nimbles supposedly have much lower drag in a cross-wind. Many people ride carbon wheels with very good results. Also, another poster told a story of comments at a bike show that the Nimble wheels were "brittle." That’s as may be, but I wouldn’t take the word of sales geeks at a conference. That was probably a Spinergy or Specialized rep getting in a little sales hyperbole just to keep in practice. Time will tell. Rick Denney Take what you want and leave the rest.

Response:

I have ridden Specialized TriSpokes for three years now, both on the front and on the back.  After much experimentation, I have settled into a Trispoke in the back and a conventional spoked wheel in the front.  That is what works best for me. With the TriSpoke in the front you have to watch for gusty sidewinds; one even skidded my front wheel 3 or 4 inches sideways (Yikes!).  Also, much less important to this NG, if you draft in a peleton you’d be surprised how much the airflow from the people ahead of you cause directional instability. You get used to it, but you sure notice it. On the back, however, they are stable, strong, and I like them there.  On long pulls they help keep the speed constant. The above are my observations, not based on scientific fact, just thousands of miles of riding. John

Response:

I *asked* Nimble about wheel strength.  Reply below, for whatever it’s worth: Dear Neal. The Nimble Crosswind is a strong wheel.  The proprietary carbon/epoxy formulation of the Nimble Crosswind has one of the higest end-use strenght to weight ratios of any material applied to commercial purposes. The crosswind is "tuned" for riders up to 200 pounds, beyond 200 pounds the rider may experience more wheel flex than a lighter rider.  We suggest you give the same consideration to our wheel that you would any light weight high performance wheels in regards to wheel durability. Nimble – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Additional question:  I’m 200#, so wheel strength is a real concern. Have you compared failure modes with other wheels???  (I don’t want to find out in a downhill turn!) Sorry all the questions…but since you’ve got such new wheels, there hasn’t been anything in terms of third-party reviews. Thanks, Neal.

Response:

Question:

I posted a few months ago with a queury about pain in my inside heel. Based on the replies that I got, I think the problem was an inflammation of the tissue that connects the heel to the toes.  I was finally able to cure the problem with new (& well-cushioned) shoes, two weeks of rest (some walking, no running), ice after each walk & initially after each run when I started back, starting back slowly, ibuprofin. Then, before Christmas, I was running on a level road & suddenly felt a very sharp pain in my ankle, on the outside just below & slightly to the back of the boney part.  The ankle never twisted at all; the pain just started on one perfectly mild-mannered down step. Further running was out of the question–I could walk but only gingerly.  As soon as I cooled down, the ankle stiffened but never swelled.  I tried to run once after 2 weeks & made matters worse– now almost 3 weeks later, I definately get the impression that running is not a good idea. The first question is what the devil I managed to do to myself. The second question is whether there could be a dietary deficiency or other problem that is causing my ligaments to be injury-prone (I also injured something in the back of my hand late last Fall, an injury that was attributed to too much computer work).  I don’t eat red meat & eat chicken no more than 2-3 times a week; I don’t drink much milk but eat lots of cheese; I don’t eat eggs at all; I usually take some sort of vitamin with iron as otherwise I tend towards mild anemia. Thanks in advance to anyone who can help,

Response:

   A simple but effective exercise for the ankles will help in greatly reducing your chances of ankle sprains. The exercise:    Stand with feet in normal standing position. Place a hand on a wall    or a railing for a little balance. Now, ‘roll’ your feet around on    their ‘outer edges’. Repeat 50 times.    (‘Rolling on the outer edges’ means to tilt your feet as far outward    and inward (supination and pronation) as possible but inbetween    rock forward on your the balls of your feet and back on your heels.)    The major benefit is the stretching and strengthening on the muscles and    tendons which keep your foot stable as you run.   If I am fairly consistent with this exercise, instead of rolling my ankle and spraining it when I run, if I hit an uneven surface, my foot will roll out, but since it is stretched it can go farther and since it is strengthened it can pull back up easier, and I hardly ever sprain an ankle any more. Mike Dotseth      "WOW FUN WOW"      /_           "They call me Lucky. The harder I work, the luckier I get!"       |              - Kenton Finanger (Luther College Cross Country Coach)

Response:

In my experience, most doctors and most runners don’t take severe ankle sprains seriously enough.  With most sprains, you partially tear ligaments.  If you go back to walking on it too soon, and even worse running on it, the ligament heals back longer than it was.  This means the joint is looser, and more prone to rolling over in the future.  Severe sprains take six weeks to heal.  Running on them before that dooms you to more sprains in the future.  The best treatment is to put the ankle in a cast with the foot held in a position such that the ligament heals back the right length.  However, most doctors take the attitude of no break, no cast. I had a series of sprains which were taken too lightly.  Then I had a major one that completely severed the ligament on the outside of the ankle.  I was given the choice of surgery or physical therapy.  I chose to avoid the knife.  That ankle is now fine for running.  It is stable front to back but completely floppy side to side.  It rolls over easily, but since the ligament is gone, there is no pain; I just fall.  Sometimes I fall down just talking to someone; I shift my weight, the ankle rolls over, and down I go.  If I wanted to continue playing basketball, I would have had to have the surgery, but running is enough for me at this point in my life. So, try to talk the doctor into casting a sprained ankle.  If you can’t, follow the R.I.C.E religiosly and use your crutches; no weight at all on it for a couple weeks at least.  And then, don’t try to go back to running on it for 6 weeks. — 3531 Boelter Hall                       day:     310 206-8696 Department of Computer Science   University of California Los Angeles, 90024-1596

Response:

Two questions:    a.  How to prevent them?    b.  What to do when you get them?

As I’ve been a fairly serious orienteer for the last 17 years (since I was 10) and I’ve been running hill-races for several years, I’ve twisted my ankles umpteen times, and so have my running friends.  The taping techniques (below) are those used by Scandinavian orienteers. Initial treatment – ICE – ice, compression and elevation.  If necessary, stick your foot in a stream or pond.  If you are at home, apply an ice-pack.  If you don’t have an ice-pack, use a pack of frozen vegetables (peas are good), but don’t eat repeatedly refrozen food.  Bandage the ankle.  Ibuprofen seems effective, but I have only recently started using it, and I haven’t done myself much damage recently. Over a longer term you want to develop strength, flexibility and protective reflexes in your ankles. For flexibility, with bare feet, circle your toes in clockwise and anticlockwise directions.  After doing this for several turns you can use your hands to *gently* increase the degree of flexion. For strength, try standing on one leg.  Once you develop enough balance to not wobble much, try it with your eyes shut and arms folded.  The idea is that you should be wobbling about.  This also helps to train your muscles to act correctly to support your ankles. You can also do this on a "wobble board" – a board raised off the ground, that you can stand on and wobble as you try to balance. Purpose made wobble boards are usually circular, with a hemispherical block of wood underneath, about 5-6 inches (12-15cm) tall, but they are easy to improvise. Running on rough surfaces will also increase the strength and flexibility of your ankles, but most importantly they will train your muscles to react correctly to twisting in order to protect your ankles.  However, you don’t want to twist your ankles doing it, so take it slowly.  Off-road shoes should not have thick wedges in the soles, or flared midsoles.  You want your foot to be close to the ground. Your heels must be snuggly held in the shoe for stability.  Studded soles will help. If you really need to protect your ankle when running you can tape it for support.  Get wide (2in, 5cm) strapping tape.  Shave the offending ankle a fair way up the leg.  Strapping doesn’t work well on hairy legs, and it hurts like hell getting the stuff off.  You should tape in a stirrup under the heel, with the ends of the tape going a hands- spread up the calf from the ankle, on both sides.  This tape should be fairly taut.  A loop of tape around the calf will help keep the tape in place, but don’t make this too tight.  You can also put a piece of tape over the top of the foot, behind the heel and back over the foot, crossing itself.  This gives support if your foot is forced backwards as you move forwards.   Leg                           ——  |    |                         ||||||  | ## |                         ##  $$   Big Foot !  ######                         |##$$|  | ## |              and        | ## |  | ## |                         $$ ##  | ## |                        $/—#  |_##___Foot__|                $___/#        # and $ = tape                                 $$$## TAPE AS INFREQUENTLY AS POSSIBLE !  If you strap you ankles all the time they won’t get stronger and your muscles won’t learn to react to the signals from the nerves which monitor your ankle movements.  The only exception to this is if you have destroyed the proprioceptive nerves in your ankle due to repeated damage.  In this case light taping in a stirrup will give a signal (by pulling on the skin) when your ankle is flexed that you can learn to use instead. I hope this helps some of you with ankle problems. Steve. —                                         /     __/  _       /|/    _/ Centre for Speech Technology Research  /   _              |     /   and Department of Linguistics,        / __/         __ /  _/    

Response:

the first thing is to put a bandage pretty tight around it to prevent inner bleedings. Keep it on for 30 minutes, keep your foot high, and put ice on it. Remove it to get the blood flowing again, and then put it on again for another 30 minutes, keep your foot high and keep the ice there. Then you tape your ankle after a very intricate schedule, and you can start training again, not the same level, but very soft…

 RICE: Rest Ice Compression Elevation — Brooklyn NY usa                                Design & Consultation

Response:

Two questions:   a.  How to prevent them?

 Don’t run on areas where hidden objects could flip your foot. Your injury in the dark cannot be avoided if you can’t see where your stepping.  I’ve had several ankle injuries and now take much greater precautions. Watch out for leaves covering rocks, roots, holes. Ankle stretching helps abit but a violent twist will still cause serious injury.  Shoes with wider soles/heels are more stable than other types.  Running when tired makes one more susceptible to twists.   b.  What to do when you get them? Oh yes, the swelling has come down a bit and the ugly, blue bruise has begun to show up.  I can see the blue best on the inside of the ankle, though the discoleration has spread to the top and outside of the ankle.

 If your foot is stuck in a comfortable but unnatural position I would recommend seeing an orthopedist. The degree of bruising makes me reminisce about a sprain I got on a chunk of ice in the road. My ankle swelled up to the aprox size of a small baseball or large golf ball, almost immediately. I didn’t use the ice I stepped on, but a nearby piece to ice it up on the spot.  After 3 days of hoping it would get better I got tired of all my friends telling me I better go see a doctor– so I did. (I got used to gingerly hopping around so I entered the office with a lot of energy). The doctor took the x-rays, told me I had no breaks, just tendon/ligament damage (the bruising up the side of my calf), and proceeded to force my ankle back into a normal position (instep aprox 90deg to shin). He told me to hold this     position while he wrapped my foot in a cast. It was fairly painful but I figured I only had to hold it for a few more moments. When he told me I could relax, I was a bit suprised to find that I couldn’t as the cast prevent- ed me from returning to my non-painful position.  Remember how I hopped into the office? Well, getting out was another story. Ten pounds of new mass on one side of my body (happily I forget which side), and new crutches, while cringing in pain, the other patients in various stages of broken-ness, probably had a bit of catharsis-like glee in seeing me, practically careen out through the waiting room. I came in through the waiting room in aprox 15 secs; to took me aprox 3 minutes to get out!  This is not to scare you or deter you from seeing the doctor. Your injury is probably not as bad as this, but if you do have to go, at least you will be a bit more mentally prepared than I was. — Brooklyn NY usa                                Design & Consultation

Response:

Two questions:   a.  How to prevent them?   b.  What to do when you get them?

 the first thing is to put a bandage pretty tight around it to prevent inner bleedings. Keep it on for 30 minutes, keep your foot high, and put ice on it. Remove it to get the blood flowing again, and then put it on again for another 30 minutes, keep your foot high and keep the ice there. Then you tape your ankle after a very intricate schedule, and you can start training again, not the same level, but very soft…  How to prevent them? Run on a track or on asphalt, and not in the woods..  Department of Physics, University of Stockholm — Sweden (Northern Europe)

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Two questions:    a.  How to prevent them?    b.  What to do when you get them? These two questions are the result of my most recent sprain.  It seems that I sprain one or the other of my ankles every 6 months or so.  This most recent sprain occured on Friday evening (in the cold dark, of course) as I was cranking back to home.  A little rock or bulge in the road caused the outer edge of my left foot to twist down and in.  I twinge just remembering it.  This is the usual type of sprain.  Something on the inside of the foot prevents it from landing normally and causes the outside of the foot to twist down and in. After the usual cursing, screaming, etc, I was able to hop/hobble the 1/2 mile or so back to the house.  My ankle was already swelling by the time I took of my shoe.  First thing was to take 3*200mg of ibuprofin, take a shower (’cause I was freezing), and then I put one of those cold jelly-like bags around my ankle.   Since Friday night, I’ve taken 200 or 400mg of ibuprofin every 4 hours or so and I’ve given up the jelly-like bag for a big bowl of ice and water at about the same interval.  I try to keep my ankle/foot in the ice water for 10/15 minutes (hurts like hell to put the foot in, but that gives way to numbness in 2/3 minutes).   And I’ve kept the walking down to a minimum – though 4 football games on TV was a bit much.   Oh yes, the swelling has come down a bit and the ugly, blue bruise has begun to show up.  I can see the blue best on the inside of the ankle, though the discoleration has spread to the top and outside of the ankle. So, any suggestions on treatment (ice pack, jelly wrap, ice/water, times of freezing, ibuprofin vs asperin, elevating, wraps, etc….) and on prevention (goofy exercises, stretches, shoes, braces, wraps, etc….) would be greatly appreciated! I will post the results of these questions. —  Joseph Stewart  Senior Applications Engineer (FIGARO+, FIGt, FIGraph)  Template Graphics Software (TGS)  959 Concord Street  Framingham MA 01701-4613 (USA)  508-872-8700 x340

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     Thanks Mark. It’s an interesting article. When I was doing the one legged exercise I felt like I was on an episode of  Cops doing a sobriety test. It works though !!

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   Unique problem here folks, I think. In a running career that has spanned approx 15 years now, I have completely torn/sprained each ankle about 3 or 4 times each. You know, the old complete inversion where the sole of the foot is 90 degrees to the ground pointing inward and all the weight is coming down on it.    Part of the problem is that I like to do a lot of trail running, which is where it most often happens. I’d have a hard time giving up the trails. My fear is that I’ve incurred irreparable damage making it easier to sprain in the future. Any advice on prevention or treatment ?? Jack.

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Have you  looked at October’s Runner’s World?  It has a section on trail running, including an overview of trail shoes.  They make the statement that it is nearly impossible to sprain/twist your ankles in the latest shoes. Seems pretty bold to me, but…

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I twisted my ankle badly when I accidentally stepped into a ditch.  I heard a couple of loud pops before I fell down… I think it’s an ankle sprain, but I’m not sure (since I’ve never been injured before).  For all I know, it could be a strained or even a broken ankle. Anyway, it’s been 36 hours and I still can’t stand, let alone walk.  I can’t put any pressure at all on this ankle, not even for half a second.  There’s no swelling/bruises/discoloration. Should I see a doctor for this, or can I just bandage it & let it heal on its own?  How long do these kinds of ankle sprains last before I can walk again?  I’d appreciate any advice.

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I would get an x-ray.  It could be broken.  Swelling is not always present in fractures. Good luck!  Let us know what you find out. April – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I twisted my ankle badly when I accidentally stepped into a ditch.  I heard a couple of loud pops before I fell down… I think it’s an ankle sprain, but I’m not sure (since I’ve never been injured before).  For all I know, it could be a strained or even a broken ankle. Anyway, it’s been 36 hours and I still can’t stand, let alone walk.  I can’t put any pressure at all on this ankle, not even for half a second.  There’s no swelling/bruises/discoloration. Should I see a doctor for this, or can I just bandage it & let it heal on its own?  How long do these kinds of ankle sprains last before I can walk again?  I’d appreciate any advice.

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When I ’sprained’ my ankle, it was about 6 weeks before I could walk normal again. It turned out to be a cracked bone, but either way, there was nothing a doctor could do, other then take an x-ray, charge me a lot of money and tell me to use an ace bandage and crutches until it felt better again. To this day, about 15 years later, my ankle is still enlarged. The swelling never did return to normal size.

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 Dear Alvin, Might it be BROKEN??? See an MD, right away!! Teresa

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Having sprained both ankles at various times, I recommend that you do a lot of balancing exercises, or else it *WILL* keep recurring. Mark.

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: I twisted my ankle badly when I accidentally stepped into a ditch.  I : heard a couple of loud pops before I fell down… I think it’s an ankle : sprain, but I’m not sure (since I’ve never been injured before).  For : all I know, it could be a strained or even a broken ankle. : Anyway, it’s been 36 hours and I still can’t stand, let alone walk.  I : can’t put any pressure at all on this ankle, not even for half a : second.  There’s no swelling/bruises/discoloration. : Should I see a doctor for this, or can I just bandage it & let it heal : on its own?  How long do these kinds of ankle sprains last before I can : walk again?  I’d appreciate any advice. If you haven’t had an x-ray taken by the time you read this, you are dumber than I thought.   Larry

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Well, what are you waiting for ??  GO !!! Edward – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I twisted my ankle badly when I accidentally stepped into a ditch.  I heard a couple of loud pops before I fell down… I think it’s an ankle sprain, but I’m not sure (since I’ve never been injured before).  For all I know, it could be a strained or even a broken ankle. Anyway, it’s been 36 hours and I still can’t stand, let alone walk.  I can’t put any pressure at all on this ankle, not even for half a second.  There’s no swelling/bruises/discoloration. Should I see a doctor for this, or can I just bandage it & let it heal on its own?  How long do these kinds of ankle sprains last before I can walk again?  I’d appreciate any advice.

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Simple question: Simple answer… Have an X-ray.. Then go from there.. Good luck Bill… return with a post…group would like to know.

Thank you all for the suggestions; they’ve been very helpful.  I’ll have the ankle diagnosed if it doesn’t get significantly better by tomorrow.  I do have the full (albeit painful) range of motion on my foot though, which I think is a good sign.  Again, I appreciate all the advice I got from these posts. Alvin

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One Word:  Kobe

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   Sorry to hear about your accident.    I constantly get nightmares about twisting my ankle because at the moment you do it, it can be one of the most painful things which leaves a lasting memory that you just don’t forget. It will certainly ruin any training momentum you had going.   Your popping sound worries me and I think you should go have it checked.   How long it takes to recover depends on how badly you twisted it. I stepped on a rock a couple of weeks ago and twisted my ankle. It really stung badly but it was only a moderate sprain and so after about 10 minutes of walking, I began running again slightly favoring the ankle. The next day I could pretty much run normally again. I was extremely lucky. Other times ankle sprains have taken me three months to recover.   I also highly advise staying off of trails unless they are smooth and even which most trails aren’t. This is especially the case if you are running fast. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I twisted my ankle badly when I accidentally stepped into a ditch.  I heard a couple of loud pops before I fell down… I think it’s an ankle sprain, but I’m not sure (since I’ve never been injured before).  For all I know, it could be a strained or even a broken ankle. Anyway, it’s been 36 hours and I still can’t stand, let alone walk.  I can’t put any pressure at all on this ankle, not even for half a second.  There’s no swelling/bruises/discoloration. Should I see a doctor for this, or can I just bandage it & let it heal on its own?  How long do these kinds of ankle sprains last before I can walk again?  I’d appreciate any advice.

Before you buy.

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Simple question: Simple answer… Have an X-ray.. Then go from there.. Good luck Bill… return with a post…group would like to know. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I twisted my ankle badly when I accidentally stepped into a ditch. I heard a couple of loud pops before I fell down… I think it’s an ankle sprain, but I’m not sure (since I’ve never been injured before). For all I know, it could be a strained or even a broken ankle. Anyway, it’s been 36 hours and I still can’t stand, let alone walk.  I can’t put any pressure at all on this ankle, not even for half a second.  There’s no swelling/bruises/discoloration. Should I see a doctor for this, or can I just bandage it & let it heal on its own?  How long do these kinds of ankle sprains last before I can walk again?  I’d appreciate any advice.

– It is of immense importance to learn to laugh at ourselves. –Katherine Mansfield//////Question of the day. Why make it so complicated? Before you buy.

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Yes and some dummies run to the Doctor at every little thing . – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : I twisted my ankle badly when I accidentally stepped into a ditch.  I : heard a couple of loud pops before I fell down… I think it’s an ankle : sprain, but I’m not sure (since I’ve never been injured before).  For : all I know, it could be a strained or even a broken ankle. : Anyway, it’s been 36 hours and I still can’t stand, let alone walk.  I : can’t put any pressure at all on this ankle, not even for half a : second.  There’s no swelling/bruises/discoloration. : Should I see a doctor for this, or can I just bandage it & let it heal : on its own?  How long do these kinds of ankle sprains last before I can : walk again?  I’d appreciate any advice. If you haven’t had an x-ray taken by the time you read this, you are dumber than I thought. Larry

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I twisted my ankle badly when I accidentally stepped into a ditch.  I heard a couple of loud pops

NOT a good sign. Get this checked out ASAP! DARE: To End The Failed, Evil "War On Drugs"

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I sprained my ankle 20th May and this is the first week when I’ve been able to run again. You should wait until you can hop 3-4 times without any pain and then start running slow and easy. Remember.. it’s better to let it heal completely.. I tried to go running just after 2 weeks and I resprained my ankle. I could’ve probably been able to run again sooner if I wouldn’t have resprained the ankle earlier on. —

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I think that a trip to the Chiropractor might be in order . You get an X-ray , you see someone trained in bones , and if it is only a sprain , you get help . If it shows that it is broken , then you go to the appropriate type of medical help for broken bones { M. D. or Ostio. In my rarely humble opinion .   T – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, what are you waiting for ??  GO !!! Edward I twisted my ankle badly when I accidentally stepped into a ditch.  I heard a couple of loud pops before I fell down… I think it’s an ankle sprain, but I’m not sure (since I’ve never been injured before).  For all I know, it could be a strained or even a broken ankle. Anyway, it’s been 36 hours and I still can’t stand, let alone walk.  I can’t put any pressure at all on this ankle, not even for half a second.  There’s no swelling/bruises/discoloration. Should I see a doctor for this, or can I just bandage it & let it heal on its own?  How long do these kinds of ankle sprains last before I can walk again?  I’d appreciate any advice.

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I am an avid runner (14 years of great mileage) who can’t stand not being able to run.  I’m addicted to it.  I recently sprained my ankle (about a week ago) and I can’t run on it.  What is the fastest way to get it healed up so I can get back to running again?

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Check out a site called `sports medicine online’. Unfortunatly I don’t have there address but your search engine should find it. You’ll find lots of helpful exercises. Also, the usual advice I’ve read is what they call RICE. R-rest I-ice C-constrict E-elevate. Good Luck, Ankle sprains are a bastard. Anthony.

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I am an avid runner (14 years of great mileage) who can’t stand not being able to run.  I’m addicted to it.  I recently sprained my ankle (about a week ago) and I can’t run on it.  What is the fastest way to get it healed up so I can get back to running again?Depends on the severity of the sprain.

–  Dennis Kiper, D.P.M. 800-DR KIPER http://www.liberty.com/home/footdoc

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Take my advice, let it heal.  I twisted mine in April playing basketball (never again) and it is still slightly swollen.  It still swells a little on runs longer than 7 miles, it doesn’t hurt bad enough to quit running just enough to irritate me.  You should ice for the first two days until the swelling stops, then switch to heat.  Doing ankle exercises will help: Draw the alphabet with your foot, do calf stretches.  Wear a brace if you have to for your daily walking around and running if it is comfortable. Heal now or pay latter—- I’m paying latter. — TRIATHLON     3 TIMES THE FUN IF YOU HAVE TO DRAFT—TAKE UP A DIFFERENT SPORT!!!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am an avid runner (14 years of great mileage) who can’t stand not being able to run.  I’m addicted to it.  I recently sprained my ankle (about a week ago) and I can’t run on it.  What is the fastest way to get it healed up so I can get back to running again?Depends on the severity of the sprain. —  Dennis Kiper, D.P.M. 800-DR KIPER http://www.liberty.com/home/footdoc

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Question:

Might be relocating to the ara . Does any body have info on running and cycling on and off road for the area??? Tpmm {tom ryan}

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Tom I live in Reno and have been doin tri’s, runs, mtn. cycling….you name it, for a long time.  Anyway we have a great area for workin out and stayin healthy for races.  There is a good group of tri-types here…six locals went to Hawaii last year including myself.  E-mail me more specific details on what your looking for and I’ll write back. Take care Bill Richards

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I am a grad student in exercise science and our lab does testing for the public (VO2 max, lactate threshold, etc).  We also give them some general guidelines or training plans based on the results of the tests. Since my background from a training standpoint is mostly running, I feel very comfortable with writing workouts for runners. When it comes to cyclists, I do not have as much confidence.  I have been a recreational triathlete in the past, but never trained well on the bike.   Could someone suggest good books on training cyclists to use as a reference? We do not try to serve as a coach, but some general, science based suggestions are provided. Thanks You can e-mail me directly or post here, whichever suits your fancy……

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