Question:

I don’t know about any running books specifically, but there is a book on Triatholon’s that I and my (soon-to-be) brother in law have which has almost anything you need in it….. Honestly, just subtract the biking and swimming part of it ou and you have a pretty good schedule and training book on running… It’s called The Triathlete’s Training Bible and its about as holy as the name implies…. oh, by the way….it’s written by Joe Friel.

The plural of Triathalon is Triathalons, not Triathalon’s.  Seriously, did all of you skip grammar school? My god, you are as illiterate as the US President. B

Response:

The plural of Triathalon is Triathalons, not Triathalon’s.  Seriously, did all of you skip grammar school? My god, you are as illiterate as the US President.

Irony or troll?  You decide. -patrick.

Response:

Irony or troll?  You decide.

Irony. Because we all know Bush would spell "triathalon" as "tryathalawn". Bill R. OO                                    

Response:

The plural of Triathalon is Triathalons, not Triathalon’s.  Seriously, did all of you skip grammar school?

Perhaps they were just joining you when skipping.  It’s spelled triathlon, not triathAlon. My god, you are as illiterate as the US President.

Pot, kettle. Mike Tennent "IronPenguin"

Response:

I did it again.  I came close last week, but yesterday I broke 8 minutes per mile in a 6 mile run.  It was not so exciting as when I broke 9 minutes 2 months ago, just raising my arms in triumph, but in silence this time.  I’ve recently increased mileage from running 3 days a week to 4 days.  I want to lose 15 more lbs and I believe this will increase my speeed even further, possibly a 6+min/mile by the end of this year.  If I’m able to run 7:30min/mile, then I will find a track and do some speed works. Can anybody recommend a good informational running book? I don’t want to waste 50-80 dollars on a coach. Thanks guys.

While it isn’t a normal "Running" book.  I’ve seen a bigger performance increase after trying some of the things in "Explosive Running" by Yessis, than I’ve seen after a quite a few months of marathon training. In other words, leg exercises will help quite a bit, and if you have more muscle in your legs, it is easier to lose weight since you will burn more fat just sitting. I remember my very first 9:02 mile after I started running.  I was pretty thrilled and never thought I’d run a full marathon at a 9:02 average pace less than 2 years later. Roger

Response:

The plural of Triathalon is Triathalons, not Triathalon’s.  Seriously, did all of you skip grammar school? Perhaps they were just joining you when skipping.  It’s spelled triathlon, not triathAlon. My god, you are as illiterate as the US President. Pot, kettle.

Hah!!!  Had one too many pitchers before posting that one in the wee hours! I should have known when I resorted to one-finger typing … Got me on that one B

Response:

Excellent!! Congratulations! Victoria – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I did it again.  I came close last week, but yesterday I broke 8 minutes per mile in a 6 mile run.  It was not so exciting as when I broke 9 minutes 2 months ago, just raising my arms in triumph, but in silence this time.  I’ve recently increased mileage from running 3 days a week to 4 days.  I want to lose 15 more lbs and I believe this will increase my speeed even further, possibly a 6+min/mile by the end of this year.  If I’m able to run 7:30min/mile, then I will find a track and do some speed works. Can anybody recommend a good informational running book? I don’t want to waste 50-80 dollars on a coach. Thanks guys.

Response:

I’d recommend Noakes for general information on running (it’s a bit of an encyclopedia), Daniels or Glover (The Competitive Runner’s guide). Daniels is primarily targetted towards fairly serious runners running high milage and training 6 days a week, so maybe you’d do better with Glover for now.

I’d second the recommendation for Glover’s Competitive Runner’s Handbook – I find myself picking mine up again and again and again. Noakes’ Lore of Running really is an encyclopedia, I mean there’s EVERYTHING in there but personally, I can’t bring myself to read much in that thing. I’d say Glover’s definitely better to start with, then if you want to know the details and fine print, get Noakes. As for losing weight — your time will drop in proportion with weight lost

That’s pretty neat actually. By the time I’m back to my weight of last year’s peak, I’ll probably run 5 minute miles. cheers, nina

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Bob, I’m so proud of you.  Now if you could turn your efforts towards

Response:

Great job Bob. I did that myself in a 10k a few weeks ago. Feels great, doesn’t it? I just broke 9min/mile on a long run today (15 mi). You never know what you can do until you try (and try and try and try, four days a week for several months straight….) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I did it again.  I came close last week, but yesterday I broke 8 minutes per mile in a 6 mile run.  It was not so exciting as when I broke 9 minutes 2 months ago, just raising my arms in triumph, but in silence this time.  I’ve recently increased mileage from running 3 days a week to 4 days.  I want to lose 15 more lbs and I believe this will increase my speeed even further, possibly a 6+min/mile by the end of this year.  If I’m able to run 7:30min/mile, then I will find a track and do some speed works. Can anybody recommend a good informational running book? I don’t want to waste 50-80 dollars on a coach. Thanks guys.

Response:

Can’t these fucking morons see where they are going?

Response:

I did it again.  I came close last week, but yesterday I broke 8 minutes per mile in a 6 mile run.  It was not so exciting as when I broke 9 minutes 2 months ago, just raising my arms in triumph, but in silence this time.  I’ve recently increased mileage from running 3 days a week to 4 days.  I want to lose 15 more lbs and I believe this will increase my speeed even further, possibly a 6+min/mile by the end of this year.  If I’m able to run 7:30min/mile, then I will find a track and do some speed works. Can anybody recommend a good informational running book? I don’t want to waste 50-80 dollars on a coach. Thanks guys.

Response:

I don’t know about any running books specifically, but there is a book on Triatholon’s that I and my (soon-to-be) brother in law have which has almost anything you need in it….. Honestly, just subtract the biking and swimming part of it ou and you have a pretty good schedule and training book on running… It’s called The Triathlete’s Training Bible and its about as holy as the name implies…. oh, by the way….it’s written by Joe Friel.

Response:

I did it again.  I came close last week, but yesterday I broke 8 minutes per mile in a 6 mile run.  It was not so exciting as when I broke 9 minutes 2 months ago, just raising my arms in triumph, but in silence this time.  I’ve recently increased mileage from running 3 days a week to 4 days.  I want to lose 15 more lbs and I believe this will increase my speeed even further, possibly a 6+min/mile by the end of this year.  If I’m able to run 7:30min/mile, then I will find a track and do some speed works. Can anybody recommend a good informational running book? I don’t want to waste 50-80 dollars on a coach.

Congrats on your performance. I’d recommend Noakes for general information on running (it’s a bit of an encyclopedia), Daniels or Glover (The Competitive Runner’s guide). Daniels is primarily targetted towards fairly serious runners running high milage and training 6 days a week, so maybe you’d do better with Glover for now. As for losing weight — your time will drop in proportion with weight lost, until you get fairly thin (not surprising when you think about it — one hardly becomes *more* efficient as they get heavier) So I’d expect the weight loss to get you down to about 7:15. To take it further than that, you’ll need to build milage and lay down a good training foundation. Good luck, — Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

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Question:

fresh meat in san diego would appreciate someone pointing me to websites of tri, running, aand bike  clubs also looking for people to train with in late afternoon weekdays and anytime weekends…let’s hammer thanks in advance

Response:

fresh meat in san diego would appreciate someone pointing me to websites of tri, running, aand bike  clubs

The triathlon club of San Diego at: http://sd.znet.com/~triclub                Steve Fredericks                Oceanside, CA

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Question:

That was an awesome report Cathy. Bravo!!!! –Howard

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Cathy, Great descriptions.  Many thanks.  Your writing and physical exploits are  inspiring. Bob Williams

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‘Twas beauty making peace with the Beast. Timothy Carlson

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Cathy:      Just reading your report makes me ache all over. Congrats on your finish and great race report. "Iron Pete" Priolo IMC’96 – 10:36:37    IMC’97 – 10:42:53 ‘98 Gulf Coast Tri, IMC’98

Response:

In article Wow. IMH ‘97 My sister Laura and my brother-in-law Dave were my support crew for IMH ‘97…. Rick Denney Take what you want and leave the rest.

Rick, you took the word right outta my mouth. Cathy, what a performance!  Congratulations, Ironwoman.  Do you still feel that you’ll never go back to race in Hawaii again? Tri-Baby                                      _                                   –    o      ’             –  __o       –    </_  `     ‘         –    <         – __/    /o_         – (()) (())        -  / "REAL Triathletes don’t draft." *** Ironman Canada 1997 – 13:04:09 *** http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~brooksie        

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Wow. IMH ‘97 My sister Laura and my brother-in-law Dave were my support crew for IMH ‘97….

Rick Denney Take what you want and leave the rest.

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Cathy, Great job, (both the race and the report.)  Truly inspiring. Augie Calabrese BTW, I saw a little plastic valve at a vendor’s showroom the other day.  I may pick one up and try to fit it into the bottom of my Jetstream.  I know what you mean about wanting to empty it during the ride, and refill with fresh/cold/different fluids.   I’ll let you know how it works.

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This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit IMH ‘97

Cathy, Thanks for taking the time to post your story.  I am so happy you raced IMH again, congratulations and job well done!  I copied your report to handout to our tri-class, they and the coach are very moved by the experience, obstacles, and adversity that you ecountered. Wasn’t it you who got back on your trainer shortly afterwards? No pressure-just remembered that from the last IMH post! Regards, Lee Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Lee  Rudin Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin:          vcard fn:             Lee  Rudin n:              Rudin;Lee org:            San Francisco Bay Area Triathlon Training Sites title:          http://www.slip.net/~leeway/ x-mozilla-cpt:  ;0 x-mozilla-html: FALSE version:        2.1 end:            vcard

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Wow.

I’ll see that "Wow" and raise it one. "Wow." Great job, Cathy. Mike "TriBop" Tennent Remove "nospam." for email reply IMC ‘98 IronVirgins Website http://www.gate.net/~wbrunner/imc_iv.htm WebRunner Running Page http://www.gate.net/~wbrunner/running.htm My Model Railroad Layout http://www.gate.net/~wbrunner/srr.htm

Response:

Question:

I was discussing frame materials with some friends the other day, and the topic turned to fatigue limits.  As I had no info on the subject I was hoping that someone here(QRMan maybe?) could provide it or direct me to it.  In the case of Easton’s 7005 series lightweight tubing, what is the expected fatigue life?  For those who don’t know steel and titanium, have a fatigue limit, where if the stresses are less than a certain value, than a typical specimen of that material will not fail due to fatigue(cyclic stresses).   Aluminum is different in this respect in that given enough cycles it will eventually fail due to fatigue.  Aluminum is given an EFFECTIVE fatigue limit where for some very high number of cycles a typical sample will not fail due to fatigue.   Mainly I was just wondering if these tube sets were rated to a set number of miles given standard road conditions before failure would be expected? Anyone? thanks Eddie Sun Devil Triathlon Team

Response:

It will be very difficult to answer your question, but I’ll give it a try. You are correct that steel (titanium?) have fatigue limits only in the plastic range. When you stretch a steel spring, it’s in the elastic range until it bends and changes shape permanently. That’s the plastic range. Fatigue failures in steel happen only when the steel is in stress ranges beyond the point where it bends. But there are ways to make that happen, even with steel. For example, a badly constructed steel frame may have internal stresses around the joints caused by improper heating and cooling during construction. Usually, it’s only one spot, but the metal will fatigue at that spot and a small crack will form. The stress at the tip of the crack is beyond the fatigue limit even in normal steel, so the crack will travel. Eventually the metal that is left won’t be enough to hold things together, and a nasty failure will occur. Fatigue failures are easy to identify. Much of the wound shows no deformation, and the broken parts fit together, except for the part that broke at the last second. That’s why silver soldering is favored by small custom builders: it is the lowest temperature process available for steel. Aluminum is different. The fatigue limit for aluminum is well below the "yield point" where the metal bends permanently. Any aluminum part will eventually break if repeatedly stressed beyond its fatigue limit. But it is not easy to determine when that is happening. Well-designed aluminum frames have enough thickness at the stress point so that the stress does not routinely rise above the fatigue limit. The welds have to be good, too, because the joints are where much of the stress occurs. I recently saw a broken welded aluminum stem made by a reputable company that showed a fatigue failure in at the weld between the extension and the quill. It was not pretty. That’s why I use steel stems (Salsa) for my daily riders. There are various tricks for reducing the problem. Several handlebar manufacturers bead blast their bars to relieve surface stresses and remove any little microcracks that can propagate fatigue cracks. We never twist handlebars in the stem such that we score the bar. That will be a fatigue point. But heat treating is the primary way to relieve internal stresses within aluminum. Heating and then cooling the material gradually allows those stressed spots to relax a little. By controlled high-speed cooling, the material can be made harder. As for aluminum frames, the best way to determine their resistance to fatigue is to look at the performance of their frames in the field. Cannondales, Kleins, QR’s, and other popular aluminum bikes have been around long enough so that if the designs were fatigue-prone, we’d have heard about it. There’s so much that goes into fatigue resistance that you can’t, as a consumer, objectively measure the resulting frame dimensions to determine the fatigue sensitivity. WARNING! ADDED TRIVIAL DETAIL FOR COMPULSIVE GEEKS: As if it wasn’t already bad enough. To answer your questions specifically but, I think, unhelpfully, aluminum fatigue limits are expressed as a curve representing stress (S, force per unit area) vs. number of loading cycles (N). These S-N curves are all different, depending on the alloy and heat treatment. A comprehensive source of these is available in the publication Fatigue Data Book: Light Structural Alloys, published by the American Society of Metallurgy (1995 397 pages ISBN 0-87170-507-9 ASM Publication) If you would like to see a S-N curve for aluminum in bicycle applications compared to some composite materials, visit http://www.princeton.edu/~humcomp/bikes/design/desi_39.htm Reading that table, the fatigue limit for 10,000 cycles of 2024 aluminum with a T4 heat treatment is about 60,000 pounds per square inch. That’s about half the yield strength of Reynolds 531, and about a third the yield strength of Reynolds 853. Note that the exotic alloy boron-aluminum was much, much higher. 2024 is a common material, but 6061 is the most common in bicycle frames and 7075 the high-end stuff. How many times you exceed that limit depends on the design of the frame, the tubing material and design, the internal stresses, and how you ride. See why it’s such a complicated question? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was discussing frame materials with some friends the other day, and the topic turned to fatigue limits.  As I had no info on the subject I was hoping that someone here(QRMan maybe?) could provide it or direct me to it.  In the case of Easton’s 7005 series lightweight tubing, what is the expected fatigue life?  For those who don’t know steel and titanium, have a fatigue limit, where if the stresses are less than a certain value, than a typical specimen of that material will not fail due to fatigue(cyclic stresses).   Aluminum is different in this respect in that given enough cycles it will eventually fail due to fatigue.  Aluminum is given an EFFECTIVE fatigue limit where for some very high number of cycles a typical sample will not fail due to fatigue.   Mainly I was just wondering if these tube sets were rated to a set number of miles given standard road conditions before failure would be expected? Anyone? thanks Eddie Sun Devil Triathlon Team

Rick Denney Remember–free advice is worth what you pay for it!

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Question:

I have been designated as the new keeper of the Triathlon FAQ from Larry Chapman. I will continue with the monthly postings, and will shortly have it up on my web page, (which I also will need to get up). I will post the URL within the next couple of days. — Tom Roehr       "The Javanator"

Response:

I have been designated as the new keeper of the Triathlon FAQ from Larry Chapman. I will continue with the monthly postings, and will shortly have it up on my web page, (which I also will need to get up). I will post the URL within the next couple of days. — Tom Roehr       "The Javanator"

Tom– Many thanks for taking on this job.  I certainly appreciate it, and I’m sure everyone else does too.   A sad "Farewell" to Larry, along with hearty thanks for his years of service to our sport and to RST.  I’ll certainly miss his even-handed, cool-headed approach to issues discussed here.  Thanks for everything, Larry, and do check back in with us every now and again.  Good luck in all your future pursuits! Cheers– Tri-Baby                                      _                                   –    o      ’             –  __o       –    </_  `     ‘         –    <         – __/    /o_         – (()) (())        -  / "REAL Triathletes don’t draft!" http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~brooksie        

Response:

I have been designated as the new keeper of the Triathlon FAQ from Larry Chapman. I will continue with the monthly postings, and will shortly have it up on my web page, (which I also will need to get up). I will post the URL within the next couple of days.

You are my new hero. QRman

Response:

Question:

10 years ago everybody said it was essential that you stretch both before and after you run. Now I’m told that pre-run stretches are not advised as stretching cold muscles leads to injuries. I’ve always hated stretching before I run preferring instead to run at a slower pace until I’m warmed up. What is the current consensus on this. Are pre-run stretches ok or not ok? Ray Kittle

        I’m not sure if the response is open to personal opinion, but I like stretching before and after running just because it feels good and wakes my body up a little bit.  I’ve never injured myself stretching. Matt Chiglinsky http://www.voicenet.com/~mattc

Response:

10 years ago everybody said it was essential that you stretch both before and after you run. Now I’m told that pre-run stretches are not advised as stretching cold muscles leads to injuries. I’ve always hated stretching before I run preferring instead to run at a slower pace until I’m warmed up. What is the current consensus on this. Are pre-run stretches ok or not ok? Ray Kittle

Just moved and got a new massage therapist. We started talking about running (she is not a runner) and stretching & she asked if I stretched before running. I said "No, I belong to the school of thought that says not to stretch cold muscles."  She replied "How about chaning to a different school for a while?" She suggested easy stretches in bed in the morning and espeically the one where you pull your knee to your chest. My neck /shoulder still hurts (stress…stress….stress…) but I do get going on my runs a bit better. Mike

Response:

:10 years ago everybody said it was essential that you stretch both before and :after you run. Now I’m told that pre-run stretches are not advised as :stretching cold muscles leads to injuries. I’ve always hated stretching before :I run preferring instead to run at a slower pace until I’m warmed up. What is :the current consensus on this. Are pre-run stretches ok or not ok?         A track coach in high school once said to the team, "You can’t stretch too much.  You can stretch too HARD, but you can’t stretch too much."         I think some *gentle* stretching before running is a good idea, as it helps to loosen you up.  If you’re going to do speedwork or a race, follow the gentle stretching with some gentle running, then more stretching, IMHO.         It seems to work for me. — Regards, Chris BeHanna

Response:

Can anyone tell me where there might be a site or other place that has a good stretching program?  I feel about as limber as a steel rod sometimes, especially in my lower back.  Any help will be appreciated.                       In Him,                    Blake Thompson

Blake: -I would suggest investing in stretching time before and after your run (5 to 10 minutes each session – the most rewarding for injury free running). (I am about to run in my 10th marathon.  I stretch religiously). – I recommend an excellent classic  book called "Stretching" by Bob Anderson.  It’s an 8 1/2" x 11"x 1/2" paperback. Costs about $15. Gives you stretches for most sports as well as stretches for morning, at work, etc.  with both excellent drawings as well as technical detail.   – I’ve implemented his "before" and "after" running stretches which I’m convinced are the best way to prevent running injuries (especially knees).  Not only does stretching maintain good range of motion (which is limited and stiff for most runners) but also it helps to strengthen week areas e.g. knees and back. I would nearly equate stretching with nutrition.   – I would add the following achilles stretch before and after each run: 1.  while standing straight, a foot or so away from a wall, prop the front of your right shoe about 4 inches up the wall while keeping your heel on the ground (with your left foot extended flat on the ground two or so feet from the wall) 2.  lean forward to cause your achilles of your right foot to lengthen 3.  hold for 20 seconds. 4. reverse to the other foot against the wall and repeat for 20 seconds. Regards, Kerry

Response:

10 years ago everybody said it was essential that you stretch both before and after you run. Now I’m told that pre-run stretches are not advised as stretching cold muscles leads to injuries. I’ve always hated stretching before I run preferring instead to run at a slower pace until I’m warmed up. What is the current consensus on this. Are pre-run stretches ok or not ok? Ray Kittle – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There is an "everything you ever wanted to know about stretching" link on: http://www.slip.net/~leeway/trilinks.html scroll down to other useful links. Regards, Lee Rudin San Francisco Bay Area Triathlon Training Sites http://www.slip.net/~leeway/

Response:

There is an "everything you ever wanted to know about stretching" link on: http://www.slip.net/~leeway/trilinks.html scroll down to other useful links. Regards, Lee Rudin San Francisco Bay Area Triathlon Training Sites http://www.slip.net/~leeway/

Response:

Can anyone tell me where there might be a site or other place that has a good stretching program?  I feel about as limber as a steel rod sometimes, especially in my lower back.  Any help will be appreciated.                            In Him,                         Blake Thompson

Try "http://www.tms.tribune.com/fyiowa_fitness/strindex.htm" I used to have a pain in the knee after a 30 min jog, but ever since I read an article on the internet about stretching, I don’t have any pains after jogging. It worked great for me. One simple thing to remember to excercise all your joints at least 10 min before and after a jog to get maximum benefits without injuring yourself. In fact, just do a search on "Stretching" on the internet and you will have more advice than you can read. All of them preach the same technique. Good Luck! Warm up, Rao

Response:

10 years ago everybody said it was essential that you stretch both before and after you run. Now I’m told that pre-run stretches are not advised as stretching cold muscles leads to injuries. I’ve always hated stretching before I run preferring instead to run at a slower pace until I’m warmed up. What is  the current consensus on this. Are pre-run stretches ok or not ok?I aspire to do a slow warm-up, while wearing a track-suit unless it

is really hot, of approx 800m-1200m (2-3 laps of a track) prior to stretching. I find stretching cold difficult. I feel much better when I do this prior to the actual workout. I remember pulling something when I got lazy once. I find my legs less reponsive when I don’t stretch. Don’t be fooled to thinking that it is a warm day so you don’t need to stretch. I’d be very interested in what is recommended by experts as I am only going on what my coach used to say when I was younger. Paul.

Response:

Can anyone tell me where there might be a site or other place that has a good stretching program?  I feel about as limber as a steel rod sometimes, especially in my lower back.  Any help will be appreciated.                            In Him,                         Blake Thompson

Response:

Can anyone tell me where there might be a site or other place that has a good stretching program?  I feel about as limber as a steel rod sometimes, especially in my lower back.  Any help will be appreciated.                       In Him,                    Blake Thompson

W. Blake: – I recommend an excellent classic  book called "Stretching" by Bob Anderson.  It’s an 8 1/2" x 11"x 1/2" paperback. Costs about $15. Gives you stretches for most sports as well as stretches for morning, at work, etc.  with both excellent drawings as well as technical detail.   – I’ve implemented his "before" and "after" running stretches which I’m convinced are the best way to prevent running injuries (especially knees).  Not only does stretching maintain good range of motion (which is limited and stiff for most runners) but also it helps to strengthen week areas e.g. knees and back. I would nearly equate stretching with nutrition.   – I would add the following achilles stretch before and after each run: 1.  while standing straight, a foot or so away from a wall, prop the front of your right shoe about 4 inches up the wall while keeping your heel on the ground (with your left foot extended flat on the ground two or so feet from the wall) 2.  lean forward to cause your achilles of your right foot to lengthen 3.  hold for 20 seconds. 4. reverse to the other foot against the wall and repeat for 20 seconds. Regards, Kerry

Response:

Question:

We’re Back Online! Marty – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I posted here a few days ago reminding people to join us on Tri-Talk found on Marty Miller’s Triathlete’s Web page.  Well, wouldn’t you know I hexed it and since that day the chat program has been down. Also in that post I mentioned we had started a little magazine with articles and tips by those who hang out there.  Someone mailed me and wanted to know the address and suggested that if the magazine was any good I ought to post the URL here.  Well, I don’t know about good but here is where it can be found: http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/5801/ If Tri-Talk ever revives itself, we hope to see you there. Hey, Marty…….

– Marty Miller Proprietor of The Triathlete’s Web http://w3.one.net/~triweb

Response:

I posted here a few days ago reminding people to join us on Tri-Talk found on Marty Miller’s Triathlete’s Web page.  Well, wouldn’t you know I hexed it and since that day the chat program has been down. Also in that post I mentioned we had started a little magazine with articles and tips by those who hang out there.  Someone mailed me and wanted to know the address and suggested that if the magazine was any good I ought to post the URL here.  Well, I don’t know about good but here is where it can be found:  http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/5801/ If Tri-Talk ever revives itself, we hope to see you there. Hey, Marty…….

Response:

Question:

The WSJ 11/30 had a piece on deer hunting.  It said that 12M hunters have taken to the outdoors of America. BE CAREFUL IN THE OUTDOORS in any area where hunters may be present, either legally or illegally. People have told me: DO NOT WEAR WHITE, you  can be mistaken for a white-tail-deer. Wear orange or red. Stay safe, John C. Schwebel

Response:

: People have told me: : DO NOT WEAR WHITE, you  can be mistaken for a white-tail-deer. : Wear orange or red. : Stay safe, : John C. Schwebel Funny that our outerwear choices should revolve around people with guns that are unable to distinguish me from rudolph :<. Jim Sallee

Response:

Folks, if you must go out in the woods when there’s hunters about, be sure to go properly equipped.  So, if someone shoots at you, SHOOT BACK!  It has an incredibly sobering effect.  "Ohmigawd, Bubba! Bambi’s armed!" With apologies to Berke Breathed. John Vance

Response:

The WSJ 11/30 had a piece on deer hunting.  It said that 12M hunters have taken to the outdoors of America. BE CAREFUL IN THE OUTDOORS in any area where hunters may be present, either legally or illegally. People have told me: DO NOT WEAR WHITE, you  can be mistaken for a white-tail-deer. Wear orange or red.

Indeed, and sometimes I think most of those 12 Million have descended on Montana for huntin’ season Big-game season is pretty well over here, but for the past month or so its been interesting. Montana is the only state that I know of where they sell handlebar mounted gun racks for MTB’s in the bike stores – no foolin’. Hope they unload their guns before mounting them on the handlebars, otherwise I’d hate to be riding abreast when one of these guys hits a big rock.. I’ve seen guys come down the same trail I was on, on a MTB, with rifle slung over there shoulder and a gutted deer slung across the top-tube. I didn’t ask, just kept on going.. I stands to reason I’ve been extremely concerned with staying visible out on the trails this last month or so.. Usually, I wear bright colors, but I had no "hunter’s orange" clothing to wear which gave cause for concern. Most of the orange clothing I’ve seen is heavy, bulky stuff, built for other hunters and not exactly designed for active use on a bike. I finally ended up buying a blaze-orange wool cap and stretching it over my helmet. My wife says I look like an orange mushroom going for a ride but at least I don’t look like a target ! – Nick, duckin’ and ridin’ through the woods of Montana — Nick Wilde           University of Montana, Missoula                      (406) 243-4975 Missoula, MT 59812

Response:

Folks, if you must go out in the woods when there’s hunters about, be sure to go properly equipped.  So, if someone shoots at you, SHOOT BACK!  It has an incredibly sobering effect.  "Ohmigawd, Bubba! Bambi’s armed!" With apologies to Berke Breathed. John Vance

Not that this has anything to do with bikes, but I used to have a T-shirt that had a picture of a deer holding a rifle, with rounds of ammo strapped across its chest (it was upright) and a bandana around its forehead.  The caption underneath read "Bambo".  I loved that shirt! — Don Finan                        

Response:

: People have told me: : DO NOT WEAR WHITE, you  can be mistaken for a white-tail-deer. : Wear orange or red. : Stay safe, : John C. Schwebel Funny that our outerwear choices should revolve around people with guns that are unable to distinguish me from rudolph :<. Jim Sallee

Around here, hunters get together, drink a lot of beer, and walk through the woods or fields with their shotguns, just waiting to blast something. I’m sure some are responsible, but they are all partaking in a "sport" which puts my life at risk due to their flying bullets. Hunters suck! nimbus

Response:

Funny that our outerwear choices should revolve around people with guns that are unable to distinguish me from rudolph :<. Jim Sallee Around here, hunters get together, drink a lot of beer, and walk through the woods or fields with their shotguns, just waiting to blast something. I’m sure some are responsible, but they are all partaking in a "sport" which puts my life at risk due to their flying bullets. Hunters suck!

People!  People! As a triathlete, mountain biker, all-around-outdoorsman, gun-owner, and hunter, I am quite apalled at the ignorance and intollerance displayed in this thread. Wearing flourescent orange may certainly be wise advice, but this is not the forum to bash a non-tri activity which you are uncomfortable (and obviously unfamiliar) with.  Hunters are not a bunch of drunken, red-necks, and they _can_ tell the difference between a human and a deer. If any of you geeks have the courage to face this issue, you should follow it up in rec.hunting and/or talk.politics.guns. —                        ( ( (                               ) ) )             Ideas, like seeds, can’t                         ( ( (             germinate in concrete Carl Castrogiovanni    ’. ___ .’           GTE Laboratories      ’  ( <) ‘        

Response:

[stuff deleted] People!  People! As a triathlete, mountain biker, all-around-outdoorsman, gun-owner, and hunter, I am quite apalled at the ignorance and intollerance displayed in this thread. Wearing flourescent orange may certainly be wise advice, but this is not the forum to bash a non-tri activity which you are uncomfortable (and obviously unfamiliar) with.  Hunters are not a bunch of drunken, red-necks, and they _can_ tell the difference between a human and a deer.

Sorry to inject a little reality into your hyposthesis, but mistakes often happen. Most often, the people injured are other hunters. But sometimes not — just two years ago, a runner on dirt roads in Connecticut took a deer slug to the neck. He’s dead. If any of you geeks have the courage to face this issue, you should follow it up in rec.hunting and/or talk.politics.guns.

Why? And what does it have to do with courage? —                       ( ( (                              ) ) )             Ideas, like seeds, can’t                        ( ( (             germinate in concrete Carl Castrogiovanni    ’. ___ .’           GTE Laboratories      ’  ( <) ‘        

Speaking for myself here – not the mag — peter — _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +

Response:

If any of you geeks have the courage to face this issue, you should follow it up in rec.hunting and/or talk.politics.guns. Carl Castrogiovanni    ’. ___ .’          

well,  I second the proposal to follow up to other groups for those who care to discuss such topics ( I am not one).. but in the meantime, in response to Carl (who calls me and others, "geeks").. SHOVE IT you courageous bonehead! Go and shoot something.. nimbus

Response:

(Nimbus Couzin) writes: well,  I second the proposal to follow up to other groups for those who care to discuss such topics ( I am not one).. but in the meantime, in response to Carl (who calls me and others, "geeks").. SHOVE IT you courageous bonehead! Go and shoot something.. nimbus

Take it outside you two.  The original message was posted as a friendly safety reminder for runners, cyclists, and hunters alike.  Some people actually enjoy all three activities.  This group is for running, not trading insults with people who disagree with your views on hunting, stamp collecting, furniture design, or hang gliding.     I don’t care what side _you_ are on.  This arguement doesn’t belong here.

Response:

Interesting thread.  I don’t give a rat’s behind how sporting, honest, well-trained, caring, or whatever a person with a gun is. They could be trained to military perfection with a gun for all I care.   It doesn’t matter.  People make mistakes.  There is no disputing this.  It is human nature.  And I for one do not want to be at the receiving end of someone making a mistake with a gun in my direction.   No f—– way!  My life is too valuable to trust another person’s judgement when it comes to a gun.   I have recently started mountain biking and I am GLAD AS HELL the original post was posted.  Once again r.s.t. has been a valuable resource!!! Rolf — Rolf "Ironman" Arands, Ph.D.|"The world is made for those who are                             |   – Sue Sarandon in **Bull Durham**

Response:

Wow! I just love seeing all of these vicious steroptypes flying around.  I am a swimmer, runner, biker, car driver, hunter(eeks), hiker, back packer, rock climber, x-c skier, snowboarder, skateboarder, mountain biker, snow shoer(?), down hill skier, surfer, water skier, skim boarder, weight lifter, to list a few.  Sure it would be easy to pick any one of these activities and try to brand me with a negative sterotype. This was already done by someone in a previous thread who makes me out to be some illiterate drunk who has no concern for life – but that really isn’t the case.  I know that some people may fit some of the stereotypes out there, but the majority probably do not.  I got a good laugh last week.  Wednesday, I hunted in an area that I often ride mountain bike and camp.  I ran into a couple of other hunters who accepted me because I was hunting.  A little while later, two mountain bikers rode by me and told me that I had no right to be on "their" trails (State Forest Land) – I laughed and walked away. On Friday, the weather was really nice and I decided to go for a Mtn bike ride in the same area.  I met another biker who warned me about the hunters and said some unkind words about them and went on his way. I continued on and rode past two hunters who gave me some very, very dirty looks – I smiled and rode on.  I couldn’t understand why both groups of people at one point accepted me for what I did, and then two days later had developed some deep hatred for me – the same exact person.  The next time you feel like hating someone, think about who and why you are hating them. Please feel free to flame me or whatever floats your boat. Neal Henderson PSU Triathlon Club, Pi Kappa Alpha Fraternity, PSU Men

Response:

What do you think about everytime you step into a car, or ride your bike down the road? Did you ever think about how much you are endangering your life and you can’t do anything about it – every single other person behind the wheel could potentially kill you – no problem. So when it comes to someone hunting, you immediately fear for your life. Hunters, at least all that I have ever known, are not out there to kill people, nor are all of the people behind the wheel of a car. Yes accidents happen and I can’t deny that, but try to put things into perspective before you go labeling and hating a group of people without knowing or understanding them.  

Response:

[stuff deleted] [ stuff deleted ] Sorry to inject a little reality into your hyposthesis, but mistakes often happen. Most often, the people injured are other hunters. But

 ^^^^^         The better word here is sometimes. In some areas hunting         pressure is incredible and there tends to be some accidental         shootings. Most hunters are careful, but there are always a few         out for a good time. And even to good hunters, sometimes accidents         do happen.         Now, I generally think that during hunting season it is a         good idea to wear blaze orange. But what I want to stress more         is to avoid wearing colors that can get you mistaken for game.         For example, white is not a good color during whitetail deer         season. With an unfortunate combination of foreground brush etc,         that splotch of white could be take as a tail. Now most         skilled hunters will take the time to determine if it really         is game ( shooting deer in the butt usually results in spending         the next few hours tracking ). But you do have some morons out there. YHC

Response:

As a triathlete, mountain biker, all-around-outdoorsman, gun-owner, and hunter, I am quite apalled at the ignorance and intollerance displayed in this thread. Wearing flourescent orange may certainly be wise advice, but this is not the forum to bash a non-tri activity which you are uncomfortable (and obviously unfamiliar) with.  Hunters are not a bunch of drunken, red-necks, and they _can_ tell the difference between a human and a deer. If any of you geeks have the courage to face this issue, you should follow it up in rec.hunting and/or talk.politics.guns.

Hm… I’ve never heard of a runner accidentally killing a hunter with a flying bead of sweat. On the other hand… Personally, I’ve seen hunters walking along dirt roads with COTTAGES on them, aparently peering into the undergrowth on the other side for targets. Great! Maybe my kid is out playing in the brush? *BLAM*. Very nice. Hunters definitely suck. Jeff.

Response:

Hm… I’ve never heard of a runner accidentally killing a hunter with a flying bead of sweat. On the other hand… Personally, I’ve seen hunters walking along dirt roads with COTTAGES on them, aparently peering into the undergrowth on the other side for targets. Great! Maybe my kid is out playing in the brush? *BLAM*. Very nice. Hunters definitely suck.

From the World Almanac (U.S. figures): SPORT       PARTICIPANTS   INJURIES   % INJURED Football      14,700,000    319,157    2.17% Baseball     154,000,000    321,806    0.21% Soccer        11,200,000    101,946    0.91% Bicycle       56,800,000    514,738    0.91% Skateboard     7,500,000     65,819    0.88% Equestrian    10,100,000     46,928    0.46% Ice Skating    7,000,000     23,443    0.33% Fishing       46,500,000     65,677    0.14% Tennis        18,800,000     22,507    0.12% Golf          23,200,000     24,224    0.10% Swimming      70,500,000     65,757    0.09% Hunting       18,500,000      1,475    0.01% —                        ( ( (                               ) ) )             Ideas, like seeds, can’t                         ( ( (             germinate in concrete Carl Castrogiovanni    ’. ___ .’           GTE Laboratories      ’  ( <) ‘        

Response:

Facts and statistics are fine. The real point is not whether hunters suck or not. The point is that not being prudent during hunting season can get you killed, the same way running on the street in the dark can get you killed. One of the posts mentioned whether I’m concerned when I go out for a normal run on the city streets. YOU BET I AM! I run with reflectors on my ankles and a vest to help visibility. All members of our group keep a watchful eye on traffic and regularly yell CAR UP! or CAR BACK! during runs to alert everyone. The main problem I see with running in an area where hunting is going on is a hunter can hit you from 100+ yards away. You may never see them, so they’re tough to avoid. You’re only real option is be be sure you can’t be mistaken for wildlife. We’ve already had our first fatality here, a teenager was shot by another teenager. The teen that was killed was wearing camoflage with no blaze hat and vest (which are recommended). Every activity has it jerks. Let’s not zero in on the bad things and get personal. Let’s worry about what we can do something about, watching our for our own personal safety. — |\ ///| Crewstone Consulting ltd.     | FAX:   (910) 777-1191 |/// \| 1001 South Marshall Suite 118 | "Welcome to the Jurassic;

Response:

(Rolf "Ironman" Arands) says: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Interesting thread.  I don’t give a rat’s behind how sporting, honest, well-trained, caring, or whatever a person with a gun is. They could be trained to military perfection with a gun for all I care. It doesn’t matter.  People make mistakes.  There is no disputing this.  It is human nature.  And I for one do not want to be at the receiving end of someone making a mistake with a gun in my direction.   No f—– way!  My life is too valuable to trust another person’s judgement when it comes to a gun.   I have recently started mountain biking and I am GLAD AS HELL the original post was posted.  Once again r.s.t. has been a valuable resource!!! Rolf — Rolf "Ironman" Arands, Ph.D.|"The world is made for those who are                            |   – Sue Sarandon in **Bull Durham**

This reminds me,  I seem to recall reading something about Greg Lemond’s retirement due to possible lead?poisoning from his "hunting accident."  What a shame!  Rolf, I couldn’t agree with you more. (I have my flame shield on!) Skeksy | The Tuf Skeks, The Council of Skeksys, Skeksyland |

Response:

Wow! I just love seeing all of these vicious steroptypes flying around. Wednesday, I hunted in an area that I often I ran into a couple of other hunters who accepted me because I was hunting.  A little while later, two mountain bikers rode by me and told me that I had no right to be on "their" trails (State Forest Land) – I laughed and walked away. On Friday, the weather was really nice and I decided to go for a Mtn bike ride in the same area.  I met another biker who warned me about the hunters and said some unkind words about them and went on his way. I continued on and rode past two hunters who gave me some very, very dirty looks – I smiled and rode on.  I couldn’t understand why both groups of people at one point accepted me for what I did, and then two days later had developed some deep hatred for me – the same exact person.

I run and mountain bike and do not hunt.  I would be happy if there were no hunting season but it is not that long a period.  I am refering to deer season, which poses the greatest threat to humans.   In Mass, no hunting is allowed on Sundays.  If I want to ride or run in huntable woods on the weekend, you can be sure I do it Sunday.  This is not a matter of "rights".  If you intentionally go into woods to mix with hunters, you have assumed responsibility for injury or death.  If you take a bullet, all you can say is "I was hoping I wouldn’t get shot.". Hunters shoot each other all the time.  What makes you think you are immune? Of course, a court may find you in the right.  It is easier to win a case from a wheelchair or casket. It is no wonder we are a nation of victims.  People who could easily avoid a life-threatening situation walk right into it. Geoff

Response:

 Hunters are not a bunch of drunken, red-necks, and they _can_ tell the difference between a human and a deer. Sorry to inject a little reality into your hyposthesis, but mistakes often happen. Most often, the people injured are other hunters. But sometimes not — just two years ago, a runner on dirt roads in Connecticut took a deer slug to the neck. He’s dead.

Sorry to inject a little reality into your screed, but the mistakes that often happen rarely involve a hunter shooting someone else. The firearms deer season recently concluded here in Michigan with a total of three people, all hunters, killed by gunshots out of a total of at least 700,000 hunters, perhaps more. At least one, perhaps two, died from faulty handling of their own weapon. By comparison, at least 9 hunters died of heart attacks while in the field. You cite the case of a single jogger killed in Connecticut two years ago. One person in two years sounds pretty rare to me. How many Conn. joggers do you think were struck and killed by cars in that time? Or croaked from heart attacks while running? Better yet, compare the number of state lottery jackpot winners with accidental hunting deaths for any state

Question:

writes: Zag threatens JJSJ that he will have to do the triathlon

in a tutu.<< I’ll stick to paying for one another’s entry fee thanks. But how do we find out for sure how many spectators were watching the Ixtapa race?

Response:

| JJSJ said: | | Then they didn’t have the legs to run. That, too | me, ain’t triathlon.<< | | To clarify a bit (whether you agree with me or not) … |  I meant that the athletes may not have really planned to finish the race, | just help out "teammates" on the bike. Therefore, since they didn’t really | plan to finish, I question the value of this athlete to the quality of | field factor. To me, this is part and parcel of allowing drafting. I’m not saying it’s bad – I enjoy the Tour de France as much as the next guy – but, if drafting is allowed, we can’t expect triathlon to remain as it is. I agree with you then, they should measure the quality of the field based on who finishes, not who started.  ..but I, also, could care less… | Actually, I could care less about any ITU World Cup rulings, as I feel the | whole series is unfair . | Lots of pros feel this way, too,  but are afraid to say anything. | Fortunately, this series is a pro problem and has little effect on | age-group racing. Chris — Ontario Telepresence Project, 2670 Queensview Dr., Ottawa, ON, K2B 8K1, CANADA

Response:

JJSJ said: Then they didn’t have the legs to run. That, too me, ain’t triathlon.<< To clarify a bit (whether you agree with me or not) …  I meant that the athletes may not have really planned to finish the race, just help out "teammates" on the bike. Therefore, since they didn’t really plan to finish, I question the value of this athlete to the quality of field factor.

Still, regardless of the plan to drop out or not. The athletes were still competing with them for most of the race.  Acutually, I would think that this situation should increase the difficulty factor.  If you’ve got people out there that are just going to blast the bike to help a teammate, then the competitiveness just went up a notch. On the ITU, (the part of the post that I deleted). I too, couldn’t really care what they decide.  I do get a little concerned however when something looks like it might trickle down to the age groupers. The good thing is that the pros look like they are begining to band together a little bit against the ITU. John K.

Response:

re: ITU quality of field debate OK. QRman was right (damn!).  I made a few calls and was told that an ITU triathlete can actually benefit him or herself by  lowering the QOF points of another  ITU’er by dropping out. It’s hard to figure. Perhaps SZAG can get Mr. Gilmore on Internet to explain the fabulous concept for those folks who are really interested.

Response:

To clarify a bit (whether you agree with me or not) … I meant that the athletes may not have really planned to finish the race, just help out "teammates" on the bike. Therefore, since they didn’t really plan to finish, I question the value of this athlete to the quality of field factor.

I didn’t understand what you meant before either, but your clarification clears it up for me. The issue of "teammates" in a triathlon working like domestiques really changes the idea of triathlon being an individual sport. IMHO, drafting legal triathlons belong in rec.sport.bogus.                            _ <_         <               ___/o__    ( )/( )       /

Response:

JJSJ said: Then they didn’t have the legs to run. That, too me, ain’t triathlon.<<

To clarify a bit (whether you agree with me or not) …  I meant that the athletes may not have really planned to finish the race, just help out "teammates" on the bike. Therefore, since they didn’t really plan to finish, I question the value of this athlete to the quality of field factor. Actually, I could care less about any ITU World Cup rulings, as I feel the whole series is unfair . Lots of pros feel this way, too,  but are afraid to say anything. Fortunately, this series is a pro problem and has little effect on age-group racing.

Response:

To clarify a bit (whether you agree with me or not) … I didn’t understand what you meant before either, but your clarification clears it up for me. The issue of "teammates" in a triathlon working like domestiques really changes the idea of triathlon being an individual sport. IMHO, drafting legal triathlons belong in rec.sport.bogus.

I think it would be fun to have 2 types of tri-s.  1) the original non-drafting ITT and 2) a true team tri where the teams time is the third across the line (all members do all three events) like TTT in cycling. This would also accurately and correctly acknowledge the ITU’s draft-legal races as team time-trials. Pat —    W.Patrick Brug, Ph.D.  _-           -_    Los Alamos National Lab -__       __-                                       /    cis:      72410,3372        /  

Response:

Gotsick) writes: How did the ITU manage to foist this monstrosity

onto the sport?  What can we do to reverse it?  The answers are obvious:  We didn’t speak up early on, and we have to do so now.<< Remember the saying "What if they gave a war and nobody came? Or the tired cliche: The tail doesn’t wag the dog. This thread is getting sizzling! Didn’t it start with a set of race results? The athletes (pro and age-group) are the real powerbrokers, the movers and shakers of this sport, not the ITU or sports agents of the stars, or writers.  You can speak and vote with your dollars and presence (or lack of).

Response:

Gotsick) writes: …Drafting is not what this sport is about.  I don’t want to see it in age-group races and I don’t want to see it in pro races either.  How did the ITU manage to foist this monstrosity onto the sport?

TV $$$$

Response:

Brug) writes:

<<a true team tri where the teams time is the third across the line (all members do all three events) like TTT in cycling.  This would also accurately and correctly acknowledge the ITU’s draft-legal races as team time-trials. This is a great idea, I love it.  Especially in events which are raced by participants who are representatives of a team, i.e., Worlds.  This is such a good idea, I am sure nothing will come of it. QRman

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Gotsick) writes: How did the ITU manage to foist this monstrosity onto the sport?  What can we do to reverse it?  The answers are obvious:  We didn’t speak up early on, and we have to do so now.<< Remember the saying "What if they gave a war and nobody came? Or the tired cliche: The tail doesn’t wag the dog. This thread is getting sizzling! Didn’t it start with a set of race results? The athletes (pro and age-group) are the real powerbrokers, the movers and shakers of this sport, not the ITU or sports agents of the stars, or writers.

If this was/is true, then all the pros should have showed up to the Gold Coast World tri where Tinely/Pigg/Allen were banned.  It would have been pretty interesting season if all the pros/elites had been banned.  Until athletes start sticking together, we’ll only have a few martyrs and be the sport will still be dominated by sports agents / writers etc. Pat —    W.Patrick Brug, Ph.D.  _-           -_    Los Alamos National Lab -__       __-                                       /    cis:      72410,3372        /  

Response:

JJSJ said: Actually, I could care less about any ITU World Cup rulings, as I feel the whole series is unfair . Lots of pros feel this way, too,  but are afraid to say anything. Fortunately, this series is a pro problem and has little effect on age-group racing.

Don’t forget, the ITU represents *International* Triathlon issues – the USA (and its pros) represent one country out of the total of countries in the ITU (about 190?), as important as we think we are.

Response:

: JJSJ said: : : Actually, I could care less about any ITU World Cup rulings, as I feel the : whole series is unfair . : Lots of pros feel this way, too,  but are afraid to say anything. : Fortunately, this series is a pro problem and has little effect on : age-group racing. on’t forget, the ITU represents *International* Triathlon issues – the USA and its pros) represent one country out of the total of countries in the :ITU about 190?), as important as we think we are. So what? Where are the national federations that are so keen on having drafting in triathlon legalized? The ones I know of (Germany, France, Switzerland) do not, or if they do they say:         We’ve got to go with the format the World Championships         and the Olympics are going to have… If only they ganged up together and pressurised the ITU on ENFORCING THE RULES as they stand, for a year or two. And then we’ll see if they really are unenforceable. And then we could take a vote (first, each nation on its own, and then in an ITU General Assembly (if such a thing exists)) and see where the majority wants to go. Would make a nice change from the handful of ITU-officials working their backsides off without any contact to reality. —                             Ulrich Porsch             Wer spricht vom Siegen, "Ubersteh’n ist alles  

Response:

writes: <<<Yes, I was wondering what happened to three of the top guys who were noted on the press release as the swim leaders — Andrew MacMartin, currently #2 in overall standings; Wes Hobson, #3; and Nate Llerandi, #10 — yet didn’t finish among the top 10 in the race. MacMartin and Hobson both dropped out on the run.  Wes said 4th and 5th place had passed him and he felt it would be better for him to drop out to bring down QF factor.  This is probably true since he is so high up in standings and may jeopardize his #3 spot.  Same for MacMartin.  He didn’t seem very confident the night before the race and confessed he was not super sharp, so I don’t think he was in contention for a top spot.  Llerandi finished 17th, I believe, with a very bad run.   — HKS WEST, Inc.                                  Phone: (510) 794-5891 Suite 205                                       3900 Newpark Mall Road                   Newark, California 94560

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Brug) writes:

<<…all the pros should have showed up to the Gold Coast World tri where Tinely/Pigg/Allen were banned.  It would have been pretty interesting season if all the pros/elites had been banned. If all the pros had shown up, there would have been no ban.  Remember that the reason for the ban was (race promoter) Barry Voevodin’s insistence on his use of the word "World".  You will notice that we just had the Ironman Triathlon "World Championship" (which was not at all the world championship, according to the ITU) and there was no mention of an ITU ban on athletes who would compete in that race. But back to the drafting thing-  I don’t see why you guys are so upset. For pros only, on a loop course, especially in a team format (which hasn’t happened yet, but will) I think it’s great.  Would I like it for non-loop courses, for age-group athletes, or for all races?  No to all of the above.  But it was fine in Orange County, and would be for races like that.   The only thing that bothers me is that Ixtapa was not the place for a drafting legal race, IMHO, so me wonders why they did it, unless the intent of the ITU is to make drafting the way of all races.   In nordic skiing there are classic and freestyle races, where the practicioners of both disciplines get a chance to shine.  What about both kinds of racing in triathlon, with world championships alternating in style from year to year? QRman

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writes: I therefore propose a rule change that judges the quality of the field based on those athletes who start the race.<< QRman I have to disagree with you on this one issue. I heard that some of the riders "sacrificed" themselves on the draft-legal bike (paceline) to catch up to the leader. Then they didn’t have the legs to run. That, too me, ain’t triathlon. So I’d say the quality of field as in finishers would be more in the interest of fairness.

I agree with Dan.  The current system devalues the efforts of the winner– especially if someone is "having the race of their life" and won’t win another event all year. Pat —    W.Patrick Brug, Ph.D.  _-           -_    Los Alamos National Lab -__       __-                                       /    cis:      72410,3372        /  

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writes: I therefore propose a rule change that judges the quality of the field based on those athletes who start the race.<< QRman I have to disagree with you on this one issue. I heard that some of the riders "sacrificed" themselves on the draft-legal bike (paceline) to catch up to the leader. Then they didn’t have the legs to run. That, too me, ain’t triathlon.

Yeah, so. That doesn’t mean you should drop out! As far as the other racers are concerned (the ones that finished) they were still racing a top field for at least 2/3 of the race.  I side with QRman.  Now, that drafting thing is another issue (you said it well, that ain’t triathlon) John K.

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QRman, who witnessed the Ixtapa World Cup race, notes: A couple of the top pros, those who are well up in the ITU World Cup standings, dropped out.  They were having okay races, but by finishing the race at all they would lend "value" to the race (from a points perspective) because of its increased "difficulty of field".  By dropping out these athletes insured that the top finishers got fewer points.   Yes, I was wondering what happened to three of the top guys who were noted on the press release as the swim leaders — Andrew MacMartin, currently #2 in overall standings; Wes Hobson, #3; and Nate Llerandi, #10 — yet didn’t finish among the top 10 in the race. So, Scott … did they finish, or did they drop out? QRman brings up a most interesting point. Katy Williams

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<<ITU WORLD CUP IXTAPA RESULTS [snip] I just got back from there, fellow netter Andy Kelsey got his first Mexican experience, and had a good race as well.  The race was well put on, as are most of the races in Mexico. One thing bothered me.  A couple of the top pros, those who are well up in the ITU World Cup standings, dropped out.  They were having okay races, but by finishing the race at all they would lend "value" to the race (from a points perspective) because of its increased "difficulty of field".  By dropping out these athletes insured that the top finishers got fewer points.   I therefore propose a rule change that judges the quality of the field based on those athletes who start the race. QRman

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ZAG

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Zag threatens JJSJ that he will have to do the triathlon in a tutu. That would be a lot easier than doing ballet in boxing shorts. The strength, endurance and skill of ballet is way beyond me; I’ll stick to the easy stuff – triathlons. Kazez

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writes: I therefore propose a rule change that judges the quality of the field

based on those athletes who start the race.<< QRman I have to disagree with you on this one issue. I heard that some of the riders "sacrificed" themselves on the draft-legal bike (paceline) to catch up to the leader. Then they didn’t have the legs to run. That, too me, ain’t triathlon. So I’d say the quality of field as in finishers would be more in the interest of fairness. As I said before Ixtapa is a great place to race. Tons of fun. If I had the bucks I’d go down there and  do it myself. Jeffrey Justice P.S.  Dan how many spectators would you say were there?

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ITU WORLD CUP IXTAPA RESULTS DRAFTING LEGAL, VERY HOT. 25,000 in the crowd for the multiple lap course. Smith and Beven shoulder to shoulder until the very end. Laurence leads off the bike in a group of four. Rose gets a lead out of the transition. Webb narrows the gap but fails to close. 1. BRAD BEVEN/AUS 2. SPENCER SMITH/GBR  -:08 3. RICARDO GONZALES/MEX -:42 4. PHILLIPE FATORI/FRA -1:02 5. BRAD KEARNS/USA – 1:22 1. JENNY ROSE/NZL 2. KATIE WEBB/USA  -:13 3. JANET HATFIELD/USA -:43 4. GAIL LAURENCE/USA – 1:33 5. MARIA LUISA MARTINEZ/MEX -6:33 STANDINGS 1. BEVEN/AUS 2. MACMARTIN/CAN 3. HOBSON/USA 4. FATORI/FRA 5. MAUCH/SUI 1. ROSE/NZL 2. WESTHOFF/GER 3. LAURENCE/USA 4. WEBB/USA 5. HATFIELD/USA

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25,000 in the crowd for the multiple lap course.<<<

Scott I’ve been to Ixtapa before, it’s a great race. But if this crowd count is even *1/2 true*, I, in front of all the Internet witnesses, will pay for your entry into the  the next ITU race that comes your way.  But if it’s not, you pay for my entry into Orange County in 1995? Deal? JJ

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Scott,  I’m confused. I see that Ixtapa was drafting-legal. Thus, I have some questions: 1.) Why was Ixtapa a drafting-legal race, if it wasn’t among the three ITU World Cup races (Osaka, Whistler, Sion) that NBC chose to televise in ‘94? I had the impression that drafting was adopted because "television wouldn’t take it unless it was more exciting." 2.) 1994 was the ITU’s "great experiment" with drafting in ITU World Cup races — at least five, right? What has been the result? Will ITU adopt drafting for all of its World Cup races in 1995, if it was indeed received as a great success? When will the 1995 ITU schedule be announced, and when it will it be determined which races will be drafting-legal? 3.) If drafting is such the success that ITU officials may claim it is, then why is the ITU stopping short of allowing drafting in the World Championships on Nov. 28 (at least among the pros)? Or, maybe I missed something. Will there be drafting in the World Championships? Why, or why not? I definitely missed the announcement that there would be drafting in Ixtapa, the ITU’s lead-up race to the World Championships … Katy Williams

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Question:

I would like to take this oppurtunity to thank all those people who responded to my question regarding hip-pain. I got a variety of possible causes such as: – Sciatia = advice: go to a physio – Stress fracture: advice: rest for a while, depending on severity – Bursitis: advice: take anti-inflamatory pill (ibuprofen, aspirin) – Overpronation or some other physical problem (such as uneven length of legs)         advice: see foot specialist, run on grass etc. Of these I can rule out the last one as I have even length legs and have a normal running style, also I always run on grass during training. Some people commented that it is probably not sciatia as the pain associated with this is sometimes hard to pin-point and can affect other areas, especially the lower back. I think that it is bursitis but of course I can’t be sure. Again thanx for all the replies….. Rob.

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   Fellow runners,        I have been running for some time and have had numerous injuries associated    with running (shin splints, knee problems) but last week I was doing my last    training for a local triathalon when during the run (about 8km) my hip was    hurting. There was a sharp pain on or around the top of my right the thigh bone    , this    pain was quite bad the next day (stiffening up?) but went away by the following    day, I didn’t do any more running, biking or swimming untill yesterdays tri and    at about the 5km mark the pain came back. I have no pain biking when the hip is    sore but I have never ever had this injury before.        The current shoes I am using have not coused the problem before.        Any ideas what it might be and how to prevent it happening on a regular basis?        Any comment welcomed…        Thanx in advance…            Rob.    Rob, I also do know kinds of hip pain very well. In my case, I’m quite sure it always was caused by irritation of the sciatic nerve. This kind of pain is able to reach into your toes, though the cause is mostly related to the back bone where the irritation takes place. You should take this into consideration. wolf —     … always look on the bright side of life … (Monty Python) GMD-FIRST an der TU Berlin              German National Research Centre Tel. (Berlin 030/049) 6704-2650              for Computer Science

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Fellow runners, I have been running for some time and have had numerous injuries associated with running (shin splints, knee problems) but last week I was doing my last training for a local triathalon when during the run (about 8km) my hip was hurting. There was a sharp pain on or around the top of my right the thigh bone , this pain was quite bad the next day (stiffening up?) but went away by the following day, I didn’t do any more running, biking or swimming untill yesterdays tri and at about the 5km mark the pain came back. I have no pain biking when the hip is sore but I have never ever had this injury before. The current shoes I am using have not coused the problem before. Any ideas what it might be and how to prevent it happening on a regular basis? Any comment welcomed… Thanx in advance… Rob.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Fellow runners, I have been running for some time and have had numerous injuries associated with running (shin splints, knee problems) but last week I was doing my last training for a local triathalon when during the run (about 8km) my hip was hurting. There was a sharp pain on or around the top of my right the thigh bone , this pain was quite bad the next day (stiffening up?) but went away by the following day, I didn’t do any more running, biking or swimming untill yesterdays tri and at about the 5km mark the pain came back. I have no pain biking when the hip is sore but I have never ever had this injury before. The current shoes I am using have not coused the problem before. Any ideas what it might be and how to prevent it happening on a regular basis? Any comment welcomed… Thanx in advance… Rob.

Rob, I’m not a physician so take this as only a related experience.  I ran a half-marathon as a training run 1 month prior to a target marathon.  The run felt great and no pain.  Two days later after a 5 mile run I had a sharp pain at the top of my left thigh bone which caused me to have a slight limp that day.  After two days rest and no noticeable pain or soreness, I did another 5 mile run.  Again, sharp pain after the run and a worse limp. Two days rest and then I attempted my last long run of 24 miles.  3 miles into it that was it.  Extreme sharp pains with every step.  A bone scan revealed a stress fracture in the femoral neck of my left leg.  My comment is that a stress fracture in this area can be extremely serious.  If you are experiencing sharp pains I would definitely have this looked at. Terrell

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