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They are already erecting the crucifix for you ! trInIc
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Simply because there are periods of drafting does not mean that one is working less hard in total. Maybe some people are. Maybe some people are working even harder than they normally would cycling at their own pace. So true. Stronger cyclists may lose a bit of their advantage in draft legal events but if they are punishing others with a blistering pace it could actually give them an advantage on the run over those who are stronger runners but who are suffering on the bike. I’ve done maybe ten triathlons. In those races I’ve never suffered like I’ve suffered in criteriums when I’m in "over my head". In a draft-free triathlon, if you feel yourself going over the brink, you can simply back off a little to recover. There is no particular penalty. Absolutely true. And this is one reason I prefer non-drafting races, you control your own pace without worrying about others as much. In a criterium, you sometimes have no choice but to push beyond the brink or risk losing the pack and its efficiency–and therefore your chances of a decent finish. Very true in crits but there is a twist in draft legal tris since you need to run after cycling. If you do decide to redline to stay with a pack then you may be sacrificing your run. There is much more strategy as the weaker cyclist needs to decide whether it is worth trying to hang with the pack and having no legs on which to run. Or is it better to drop off the back, recover a bit and maybe go with the next pack and, hopefully, come off with fresher legs. Dropping off the back is simultaneously both a demoralizing bummer and huge relief. Very depressing to see the group disappearing into the distance. Then one has to decide whether to continue riding hard or spin and wait for the next pack. Meanwhile the leaders have to decide just how hard they need to push the pace to keep enough distance between them and possible top runners in chase packs. IF the leaders go all out, while a few top runners may be sitting in on a chase pack saving their legs, will they have enough to hold off the chasers? I know it doesn’t seem very fair compared to non-drafting races. It is just a different form of triathon. It’s very strategic and quite often actually makes the bike leg of a draft legal race more interesting to the participants, IMO. -hug
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Simply because there are periods of drafting does not mean that one is working less hard in total. Maybe some people are. Maybe some people are working even harder than they normally would cycling at their own pace.
So true. Stronger cyclists may lose a bit of their advantage in draft legal events but if they are punishing others with a blistering pace it could actually give them an advantage on the run over those who are stronger runners but who are suffering on the bike. I’ve done maybe ten triathlons. In those races I’ve never suffered like I’ve suffered in criteriums when I’m in "over my head". In a draft-free triathlon, if you feel yourself going over the brink, you can simply back off a little to recover. There is no particular penalty.
Absolutely true. And this is one reason I prefer non-drafting races, you control your own pace without worrying about others as much. In a criterium, you sometimes have no choice but to push beyond the brink or risk losing the pack and its efficiency–and therefore your chances of a decent finish.
Very true in crits but there is a twist in draft legal tris since you need to run after cycling. If you do decide to redline to stay with a pack then you may be sacrificing your run. There is much more strategy as the weaker cyclist needs to decide whether it is worth trying to hang with the pack and having no legs on which to run. Or is it better to drop off the back, recover a bit and maybe go with the next pack and, hopefully, come off with fresher legs. Dropping off the back is simultaneously both a demoralizing bummer and huge relief. Very depressing to see the group disappearing into the distance. Then one has to decide whether to continue riding hard or spin and wait for the next pack. Meanwhile the leaders have to decide just how hard they need to push the pace to keep enough distance between them and possible top runners in chase packs. IF the leaders go all out, while a few top runners may be sitting in on a chase pack saving their legs, will they have enough to hold off the chasers? I know it doesn’t seem very fair compared to non-drafting races. It is just a different form of triathon. It’s very strategic and quite often actually makes the bike leg of a draft legal race more interesting to the participants, IMO. -hug
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<<As for draft legal tris being easier than non-drafting (AND sprints being easier than long distance) I will say that without a doubt the most painful race I have ever done was a draft legal super sprint. It was three rounds of a 250m swim/4k bike/1.2k(?) run with about a 10 minute break between rounds. It hurt FAR more than Wildflower Half Ironman which many consider to be one of the toughest half ironman races. This is a really excellent point. Simply because there are periods of drafting does not mean that one is working less hard in total. Maybe some people are. Maybe some people are working even harder than they normally would cycling at their own pace. I’ve done maybe ten triathlons. In those races I’ve never suffered like I’ve suffered in criteriums when I’m in "over my head". In a draft-free triathlon, if you feel yourself going over the brink, you can simply back off a little to recover. There is no particular penalty. In a criterium, you sometimes have no choice but to push beyond the brink or risk losing the pack and its efficiency–and therefore your chances of a decent finish. -Kevin
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I will ask, is the time trial the only acceptable version of cycling or are road races & crits also accepted as part of the sport?
At the risk of stepping in where angels (but not Brian W.) fear to tread: road races & crits (with drafting) are perfectly reasonable forms of bike racing. That format becomes more questionable when the start time is seeded by swim performance, and more so yet when the subsequent run dampens the incentive for a breakaway. Brian’s riff on the "original intent" of tri doesn’t carry much water with me though. Andrew
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I will ask, is the time trial the only acceptable version of cycling or are road races & crits also accepted as part of the sport? At the risk of stepping in where angels (but not Brian W.) fear to tread: road races & crits (with drafting) are perfectly reasonable forms of bike racing. That format becomes more questionable when the start time is seeded by swim performance, and more so yet when the subsequent run dampens the incentive for a breakaway. Brian’s riff on the "original intent" of tri doesn’t carry much water with me though. I will ask, is the time trial the only acceptable version of cycling or are road races & crits also accepted as part of the sport? At the risk of stepping in where angels (but not Brian W.) fear to tread: road races & crits (with drafting) are perfectly reasonable forms of bike racing. That format becomes more questionable when the start time is seeded by swim performance, and more so yet when the subsequent run dampens the incentive for a breakaway. Brian’s riff on the "original intent" of tri doesn’t carry much water with me though.
My point was that just because the format is different doesn’t mean it isn’t still triathlon. There are different types of cycling races, so I don’t have a huge problem with different types of triathlon races. I CERTAINLY am not saying draft legal events are better or fairer than traditional non-drafting tris. I definitely prefer non-drafting races. Unlike traditional races, each draft legal race is different, so it is kind of exciting (often nerve-wracking) b/c you never know what is going to happen. You’d be surprised at just how hard the pace is on those swimmer breakaways. They are doing anything but relaxing and just waiting for the run. When the swim ends up being short (like at US elite Nationals in NYC) and everyone ends up in one big pack then you are right, the cycle portion is a joke with no incentive for a breakaway. As for draft legal tris being easier than non-drafting (AND sprints being easier than long distance) I will say that without a doubt the most painful race I have ever done was a draft legal super sprint. It was three rounds of a 250m swim/4k bike/1.2k(?) run with about a 10 minute break between rounds. It hurt FAR more than Wildflower Half Ironman which many consider to be one of the toughest half ironman races. -hug
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You probably wouldn’t say that if you’d ever seen Brian dance on a Festivus Pole. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And other holiday greetings, y’all. Bah! Humbug!
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Brian Wagner wrote And other holiday greetings, y’all.
And just to make you all smile, I went for my first sea swim this morning, balmy temps., no clouds, lovely morning, no wind, lovely…
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Who is first for the "Feats of Strength"!!??
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And other holiday greetings, y’all.
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Brian, Are you having the usual Hall of Grievances/Feats of Strength? If so, I have issues… Rick
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And other holiday greetings, y’all.
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I think he was on the wrong use group. Ken
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Brian, Are you having the usual Hall of Grievances/Feats of Strength? If so, I have issues… Rick And other holiday greetings, y’all.
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And other holiday greetings, y’all.
Hey, has anyone noticed Ben & Jerry’s has a Festivus ice cream out now? (Wonder if the slogan is "the ice cream for the rest of us"?) Happy holidays! -hug
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And other holiday greetings, y’all. Hey, has anyone noticed Ben & Jerry’s has a Festivus ice cream out now? (Wonder if the slogan is "the ice cream for the rest of us"?)
Laurie, I like the way you always get down to the important stuff! Happy etc all! Andrew
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Hey, has anyone noticed Ben & Jerry’s has a Festivus ice cream out now? (Wonder if the slogan is "the ice cream for the rest of us"?) Laurie, I like the way you always get down to the important stuff!
Gotta have your priorities straight! Actually I have ice cream on the brain since I have kept my New Year’s resolution of last year not to buy any ice cream. (When I was in Italy last month I DID buy gelato but that wasn’t *called* ice cream, so perhaps I bent the rules a bit!) -hug (who has calculated that ice cream can be bought in 3 days, 4 hours and 10 minutes…unless the same resolution is made again for next year.)
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey, has anyone noticed Ben & Jerry’s has a Festivus ice cream out now? (Wonder if the slogan is "the ice cream for the rest of us"?) Laurie, I like the way you always get down to the important stuff! Gotta have your priorities straight! Actually I have ice cream on the brain since I have kept my New Year’s resolution of last year not to buy any ice cream. (When I was in Italy last month I DID buy gelato but that wasn’t *called* ice cream, so perhaps I bent the rules a bit!) -hug (who has calculated that ice cream can be bought in 3 days, 4 hours and 10 minutes…unless the same resolution is made again for next year.)
My respect has grown even more. But don’t follow the same well-trodden path for this year. Perhaps a different resolution…chocolate for example. (That may be extreme…and we’d have to leave the decision over chocolate ice cream to the judges… 
Andrew "theobromines-r-us" Duncan
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey, has anyone noticed Ben & Jerry’s has a Festivus ice cream out now? (Wonder if the slogan is "the ice cream for the rest of us"?) Laurie, I like the way you always get down to the important stuff! Gotta have your priorities straight! Actually I have ice cream on the brain since I have kept my New Year’s resolution of last year not to buy any ice cream. (When I was in Italy last month I DID buy gelato but that wasn’t *called* ice cream, so perhaps I bent the rules a bit!) -hug (who has calculated that ice cream can be bought in 3 days, 4 hours and 10 minutes…unless the same resolution is made again for next year.)
I notice you resolved not to BUY ice cream for a year, but make no mention of enjoying the generosity of others. What is this year’s resolution, so we know what to treat you to? And what is in this Festivus ice cream? Enquiring minds want to know.
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path for this year. Perhaps a different resolution…chocolate for example. (That may be extreme…and we’d have to leave the decision over chocolate ice cream to the judges… Andrew "theobromines-r-us" Duncan
Chocolate? CHOCOLATE?! Have you gone mad? Well it is already too late anyhow. Yesterday, New Year’s Day, I had chocolate-dipped cookies with tea for breakfast, an assortment of chocolate candies (Guylian, Milka & some surprisingly tasty domestic chocolates called Smidgens by Gertrude & Hawk) for dessert after lunch, chocolate cake after dinner and then chocolate pudding and more candy as an evening snack! No lie, just a typical day. As Brian noted, I was allowed to have ice cream – IFF someone else bought it for me! Didn’t bother to check what was in Festivus since I figured none of the strangers in line at B&Js was gonna treat me. I think I will continue with the ice cream resolution as it really helped me keep my weight down this summer when all the premium pints went on those nearly irresistable "buy one, get one free" sales. Perhaps I could ALSO try to give up chocolate for just one day a week (she says as she munches on chocolate-dipped graham cookies). To get this back to being somewhat triathlon rated, here is something to ponder. If you had to give up either your favorite food (in my case chocolate) or triathlon for a year, which would it be? -hug
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To get this back to being somewhat triathlon rated, here is something to ponder. If you had to give up either your favorite food (in my case chocolate) or triathlon for a year, which would it be? -hug
Triathlon has become a big part of me. I love the variety in the workouts, the thrill of a race, and meeting the interesting people who are attracted to the sport. I really love traithlon. I’d really miss it. I guess I’d think about that while I was eating that steak. Tom
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Chocolate? CHOCOLATE?! Have you gone mad? Well it is already too late anyhow. Yesterday, New Year’s Day, I had chocolate-dipped cookies with tea for breakfast, an assortment of chocolate candies (Guylian, Milka & some surprisingly tasty domestic chocolates called Smidgens by Gertrude & Hawk) for dessert after lunch, chocolate cake after dinner and then chocolate pudding and more candy as an evening snack! No lie, just a typical day.
Note to self: For new aftershave, mix equal parts Clorox and Hershey’s cocoa. As Brian noted, I was allowed to have ice cream – IFF someone else bought it for me!
And you thought no one would catch that. Didn’t bother to check what was in Festivus since I figured none of the strangers in line at B&Js was gonna treat me.
With your charm? Pshaw! I think I will continue with the ice cream resolution as it really helped me keep my weight down this summer when all the premium pints went on those nearly irresistable "buy one, get one free" sales.
You mean you couldn’t find anyone who just wanted one pint? It’s easier if you drop the interval to something smaller than a year. My simple formula for weight control – weekdays, eat like Vulcan; weekends, eat like Klingon. Perhaps I could ALSO try to give up chocolate for just one day a week (she says as she munches on chocolate-dipped graham cookies).
Lent will be soon upon us. To get this back to being somewhat triathlon rated, here is something to ponder. If you had to give up either your favorite food (in my case chocolate) or triathlon for a year, which would it be?
Easy – the one food, because there are so many others to enjoy. I’ll pretty much eat anything that doesn’t eat me first.
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As Brian noted, I was allowed to have ice cream – IFF someone else bought it for me! And you thought no one would catch that.
Well practically the only time I had ice cream was when I went to my parents house and they usually have the crappy fat free and or sugar free stuff which isn’t even worth eating. One of my masters swimmers who knew of my resolution gave me two pints of Godiva chocolate ice cream about a month ago as an early Christmas present though! To get this back to being somewhat triathlon rated, here is something to ponder. If you had to give up either your favorite food (in my case chocolate) or triathlon for a year, which would it be? Easy – the one food, because there are so many others to enjoy.
The same can be said about sports. If I stopped doing triathlon for a year I could still do masters swim meets (and/or running races, cycling races, mountain biking, etc.) AND continue to enjoy my chocolate. Now if the stipulation was that you’d have to stop all tri related activities THAT would make the decision harder. -hug (there’s always golf I guess – ha!)
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To get this back to being somewhat triathlon rated, here is something to ponder. If you had to give up either your favorite food (in my case chocolate) or triathlon for a year, which would it be? Easy – the one food, because there are so many others to enjoy. I’ll pretty much eat anything that doesn’t eat me first.
Agreed, I could give up any one food and replace it with a host of others. Libations are another issue entirely. If the choice were wine or triathlon, I’d be saying see you next year…
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Well practically the only time I had ice cream was when I went to my parents house and they usually have the crappy fat free and or sugar free stuff which isn’t even worth eating.
Every time I’m at my parents’ there’s nothing but vanilla, and nothing to put on it. What’s with parents anyway? One of my masters swimmers who knew of my resolution gave me two pints of Godiva chocolate ice cream about a month ago as an early Christmas present though!
We should start an ice cream relief campaign for you. Please supply a list of favorites, with seasonal preferences. The same can be said about sports. If I stopped doing triathlon for a year I could still do masters swim meets
In the winter I typically only swim, but it’s still triathlon training. (and/or running races, cycling races, mountain biking, etc.) AND continue to enjoy my chocolate. Now if the stipulation was that you’d have to stop all tri related activities THAT would make the decision harder.
Obviously, it would have to mean you give up all elements of triathlon, otherwise, one could simply limit oneself to ITU draft-legal races and technically be giving up triathlon.<G Mountain biking would be a gray area. Keep in mind, I wanted nothing to do with any competitive sport until I found this one. -hug (there’s always golf I guess – ha!)
just like there’s always carob.
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In the winter I typically only swim, but it’s still triathlon training.
I don’t look at it that way. I consider the winter to be masters swimming season, the summer to be triathlon season, there is a bit of a crossover in the spring and the fall is off-season for both. If I had to give up swimming or chocolate – well, I shudder to think. It would be easier to give up triathlon for a year for sure. I could happily go without running for a year! Since 1974 the longest I have ever gone without swimming is 4 months and it was pure hell! Obviously, it would have to mean you give up all elements of triathlon, otherwise, one could simply limit oneself to ITU draft-legal races and technically be giving up triathlon.<G
LOL…resist, must…resist…responding. Do we really want to have another rehash of the drafting issues??? Admittedly I have gone to the dark side and -gasp- have been doing some of those evil draft legal races but that is a whole other topic. You mean I CAN continue to do those races and keep my chocolate!? That would mean no trip to Cleveland then and we all know know what a sacrifice that would be. (Which city has a worse rap anyhow – Cleveland or Philly? I actually think both are quite nice, though Cleveland is far duller.) I will ask, is the time trial the only acceptable version of cycling or are road races & crits also accepted as part of the sport? -hug (there’s always golf I guess – ha!) just like there’s always carob.
Great analogy. I don’t care what others say about you, anyone who can both tick me off AND crack me up in the same post can’t be all that bad. -hug
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LOL…resist, must…resist…responding.
Luke, give in to your anger, come over to the dark side. Do we really want to have another rehash of the drafting issues???
Is a frog’s ass watertight? Admittedly I have gone to the dark side and -gasp- have been doing some of those evil draft legal races but that is a whole other topic.
You’re forgiven – we know the siren song of the loot is too strong to resist. I blame the system – you get to a certain point, and it’s your only option for greater competition. I think I’m safe in saying that even the most vehement among us envies the talent that places that dilemma on your plate, even if we dread facing it. You mean I CAN continue to do those races and keep my chocolate!?
If you hold to the sacrifice being only participation in real triathlons, as opposed to related and contributory activities. However, you can have both anyway, since this is only a hypothetical. That would mean no trip to Cleveland then and we all know know what a sacrifice that would be.
Yeah, no racing without cold drinking water, no getting to the finish line to discover no food, no poorly organized, goat rope of a race. I plan to find another race that weekend, but one that will still allow me to be at the finish line downtown with a pint of Pierre’s ice cream in hand. Jack Caress is worse than Les McDonald. (Which city has a worse rap anyhow – Cleveland or Philly? I actually think both are quite nice, though Cleveland is far duller.)
Cleveland is a nice place to live, but I can’t think of a reason to visit. Good to live and good to visit are typically mutually exclusive. Tourism and travel are largely based on the idea of crapping where someone else lives, rather than where you live. Hence, living in a tourism mecca means you are the someone else whose living space fills up with other people’s crap. I will ask, is the time trial the only acceptable version of cycling or are road races & crits also accepted as part of the sport?
No, cycling has already established itself as a team sport, with no pretense of being individual. However, just because hurdles and javelins are a legitimate part of track and field doesn’t mean they belong in the run segment of triathlon (the LAST thing you want to do is put a sharp object in the hands of most people here, yours truly included.) Great analogy. I don’t care what others say about you, anyone who can both tick me off AND crack me up in the same post can’t be all that bad.
You shouldn’t say things like that. A guy could become hopelessly smitten.
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And other holiday greetings, y’all.
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And other holiday greetings, y’all.
Bah! Humbug!
arrin : : :2.4 miles is just over 4200 yards, or 3800m. Why don’t you just do a :1900m pool swim, double the time, and that’s your estimate? It’s also :good training. It would be hard to estimate from a 500m time, since you :can usually really crank it up for this short a distance. You could also :do 3×600m with 30 sec rest and use the total time as your (half-) :estimate. The 1:30 rest makes up for the missing 100m. If you swim 3×600 with 30 sec rest, the total rest is only 1 minute, don’t you think? — Ulrich Porsch Wer spricht vom Siegen, "Ubersteh’n ist alles 
Good luck – I’ll be doing the Great Floridian as well!