Question:

You’re schedule could look like: Mon: run 1 Tues: swim 1 (morning) Bike 1 afternoon/evening Wed: Run 2 (interval run) Thurs: Bike 2 Fri: Swim 2 (virtual day off) Sat: Bike 3 (long bike) Sun: Run 3 (long run)

This makes me wonder about strength training – with weights in the gym.  Where does that get fit in?  I know at my last race, it really bothered me when we were riding into a stiff head-wind and I was getting passed by others my size and age.  The only way they could pass me was because they were stronger.  At that time I vowed to add time on the weight machines to my schedule. t

Response:

gym.  Where does that get fit in?  I know at my last race, it really bothered me when we were riding into a stiff head-wind and I was getting passed by others my size and age.  The only way they could pass me was because they were stronger.  At that time I vowed to add time on the weight machines to my schedule.

The schedule was, off course, just as an example. If you want to do weight-training, put in in your schedule. It is all about time, available time for training. If you feel you are not strong enough on the bike, ask yourself what is my problem. You asume it is strenght, or is it mileage?? If you have to choose between skipping a bike workout for a weight training session! I would defenetley not skip the bike. Going to the weightroom once a week is not enough to get enough advantage (you need at least two session a week). Remember the training principles (over – supercompensation). Train specific, if the bike portion needs more work, work on your bike. Do specific power, endurance, aerobic and or strenght sets on your bike. Buy a good trainer (with power output like the Tacx or the Computrainer). And maybe if you know that the bike is your weakest discipline and running is your strongest. Work even harder on the run and get faster there. Every triathlon ends with the run. You will pass those guys with "huge" quats easy on the run (let them pass you on he bike). Get strong for next season! Train smart

Response:

I have been reading this book with a view to planning a training schedule for next year.  However in the base training schedule the training is seven days a week.  I thought that current perceived wisdom was to have one day off a week.  Has theory moved on since this bool was written or does the training plan still stand. Please let me have your thoughts. Alan Hockey

Response:

I’m in the process of reading the same book.  However, I just purchased Mike Pigg’s software for PC Coach and it has me with on a 6 day a week training schedule. Curious what everyone else has found. Shelley

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been reading this book with a view to planning a training schedule for next year.  However in the base training schedule the training is seven days a week.  I thought that current perceived wisdom was to have one day off a week.  Has theory moved on since this bool was written or does the training plan still stand. Please let me have your thoughts. Alan Hockey

Response:

From everything Ive read, and the training Im doing now (for IM distance in March next year), always have 1 day a week off.  You will come to cherish that day.  Ive been doing tris now for nearly 20 years, and its always worked for me, having that day in my pocket.  Also, if you miss a workout, let it go, dont make the mistake of trying to catch up by squeezing it in on another day.

Response:

I am still new to the sport, so I don’t have the experience that the others have.  But last year I trained either 5 or 6 days a week – depending on the schedule I had worked out for myself – and just got burned out after a while, and felt sore all the time.  This year I’ve been sticking with an every-other-day workout that seems more realistic and comfortable. I guess my point is this: I should have built a better physical/cardio base before trying to commit myself to so much training.  I wish that I had STARTED with the every-other-day routine so that now I could be doing the 6 day a week training.  Start out dreaming of an Ironman, but don’t start out training for an Ironman. t

Response:

Is training seven days a week wrong? Should you have one day completely off? Did the training principles change in the last years? All depends on you as in individual, training age; how many years are you into triathlon or any endurance sport. How many hours did you train last year, what is your body and mind capable of to adapt too! That is the big question and you only know if you are longer in this sport than one or two years. The longer you are into these kinds of endurance sports the more mileage you can do (adapt too). Tirthankara you did put it wonderful, dream of the IM in your first year don’t train for it! Next is the intensity of training, if intensity is low you can do seven days a week. Take into account that lactic acid moves out of our system twice as fast while we are running/cycling real slow than while we are doing nothing! So a recovery training, short low intensity workout is no problem at all, even on an off day. Also a swim workout won’t hurt you that much on an off day (no brutal interval). Or a 30-minute session on the track doing running drills. Sometimes it is even better to get that body going than doing nothing at all. There are athletes that will turn wild when they have a completely day off in the schedule, so they train but rest at the same time. That will put their mind to ease. Also I agree with triboynz; when a day is over he day is over. So if you did not have the time to do your workout it’s over. And look at what you have scheduled the next day. If that was a "day off" it can be ok to shift it (sure when you are still in Base training). If it’s not a day off, don’t mind skip it and do your thing that you have scheduled that next day. Forget about the lost training. I always tell my athletes that if they can do 80% of a scheduled week they are home free, you are too. Training seven days a week sometimes is the only option. When age groupers with not much time (actual training time besides family, work and friends) on their hands want to prepare themselves for a race. If you want to do 7 sessions a week (3 run – 3 bike – 1 swim) and your available time per day is low, it is an option to do it n seven days. The day that you swim can be he virtual off day. Or you want to do more sessions a week. Like 3 run – 3 bike and 2 swim sessions.  You’re schedule could look like: Mon: run 1 Tues: swim 1 (morning) Bike 1 afternoon/evening Wed: Run 2 (interval run) Thurs: Bike 2 Fri: Swim 2 (virtual day off) Sat: Bike 3 (long bike) Sun: Run 3 (long run) Top age groupers and pros in preparations of the long distance races 1/2 IM and full IM often don’t have the luxury of an entirely day off. So for them it is the same training and resting at the same time. Normal hey would train like 4 to 5 hours a day (in one or two sessions) and on the off day only 1 or hours (in one or two sessions). And yes that is rest for them. However they have not the luxury of a day off the have he luxury to rest more after training. Remember the training principles; it’s not the actual training that counts but the rest after the training (over- or super compensation curve). And this is an old one but a goodie: Train smart not hard!  Take care you all out there, Frank Senders.

Response:

Question:

This may be a little off topic but I am currently looking for a new car, and am looking for advice on what is a good bike carrying car. I want to be able to take 2 bikes to a triathlon, keep them inside the vehicle (out of the weather) and still have a back seat.  I’m currently in a Jeep Cherokee and not only can you not use the back seat with bikes inside, you can’t even lean the front seats back a little. I’ve looked at the suburban, which would be ideal, but it’s a little out of my price range for the features I want.  Anyone with a Yukon/Tahoe or an Excursion out there want to clue me in on how well bikes (and luggage) fit in the back with the 2nd row seat not folded down?  Any other cars people like for this?  I’m also considering a conversion van but it seems that to be usefull you’d have to remove the sofa in the back. James

Response:

Um, if your budget is a concern, why not a mini pickup with a cap?  You could even get an extended cab for a little more.  Depending on the make, this is probably your least expensive bet for what you want.  I still miss my little Mazda…Bought it new for $6995 in ‘89, put a cap on later for about $1K.  I could camp out in the back or put my bikes in, or carry bikes on my hitch rack and camp out.  The other good thing about a mini with a cap is less of your friends call you than if you had an open bed, as I do now.  Everybody’s always wanting to move something… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This may be a little off topic but I am currently looking for a new car, and am looking for advice on what is a good bike carrying car. I want to be able to take 2 bikes to a triathlon, keep them inside the vehicle (out of the weather) and still have a back seat.  I’m currently in a Jeep Cherokee and not only can you not use the back seat with bikes inside, you can’t even lean the front seats back a little. I’ve looked at the suburban, which would be ideal, but it’s a little out of my price range for the features I want.  Anyone with a Yukon/Tahoe or an Excursion out there want to clue me in on how well bikes (and luggage) fit in the back with the 2nd row seat not folded down?  Any other cars people like for this?  I’m also considering a conversion van but it seems that to be usefull you’d have to remove the sofa in the back. James

Response:

I have an expedition and can get two bikes in the back but I must recline all the seats.  I leave both wheels on my wifes bike (a 47cm) but must take my front wheel off (a 58 cm).

Response:

We have an 1999 Chev Astro Van, bought it for less than $20k. With second seat in can get two bikes in the back with both wheels on and three without the wheel on one. Plus luggage and coolers. 20-23 MPG. Does not ride great though. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have an expedition and can get two bikes in the back but I must recline all the seats.  I leave both wheels on my wifes bike (a 47cm) but must take my front wheel off (a 58 cm).

Response:

The Isuzu Trooper is one of the few, maybe the only, SUV that will allow a bike to stand up in the back on a front fork mount internal rack. This same thread happened here in 1995.  There were a thousand different responses and I bought a Trooper and a matching one for my wife as well. We’re both still happy with them. Ray

| This may be a little off topic but I am currently looking for a new car, and | am looking for advice on what is a good bike carrying car. | | I want to be able to take 2 bikes to a triathlon, keep them inside the | vehicle (out of the weather) and still have a back seat.  I’m currently in a | Jeep Cherokee and not only can you not use the back seat with bikes inside, | you can’t even lean the front seats back a little. | | I’ve looked at the suburban, which would be ideal, but it’s a little out of | my price range for the features I want.  Anyone with a Yukon/Tahoe or an | Excursion out there want to clue me in on how well bikes (and luggage) fit | in the back with the 2nd row seat not folded down?  Any other cars people | like for this?  I’m also considering a conversion van but it seems that to | be usefull you’d have to remove the sofa in the back. | | | James | |

Response:

I have an Expedition that configured the same way.  No problem with saddle height until the 6′2" and above riders put their bikes in.  I can easily carry three bikes and three people, all inside, by folding down the 2/3 split seat.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The Isuzu Trooper is one of the few, maybe the only, SUV that will allow a bike to stand up in the back on a front fork mount internal rack. This same thread happened here in 1995.  There were a thousand different responses and I bought a Trooper and a matching one for my wife as well. We’re both still happy with them. Ray | This may be a little off topic but I am currently looking for a new car, and | am looking for advice on what is a good bike carrying car. | | I want to be able to take 2 bikes to a triathlon, keep them inside the | vehicle (out of the weather) and still have a back seat.  I’m currently in a | Jeep Cherokee and not only can you not use the back seat with bikes inside, | you can’t even lean the front seats back a little. | | I’ve looked at the suburban, which would be ideal, but it’s a little out of | my price range for the features I want.  Anyone with a Yukon/Tahoe or an | Excursion out there want to clue me in on how well bikes (and luggage) fit | in the back with the 2nd row seat not folded down?  Any other cars people | like for this?  I’m also considering a conversion van but it seems that to | be usefull you’d have to remove the sofa in the back. | | | James | |

Response:

This may be a little off topic but I am currently looking for a new car, and am looking for advice on what is a good bike carrying car. I want to be able to take 2 bikes to a triathlon, keep them inside the vehicle (out of the weather) and still have a back seat.  I’m currently in a Jeep Cherokee and not only can you not use the back seat with bikes inside, you can’t even lean the front seats back a little.

Our Dodge Grand ES handles up to 6 inside on my home made fork mount rack.  It connects to the third seat  hold-downs.  I built racks for 1, 2 and 4 bikes.  Cost about 10 bucks each. Tom

Response:

We have an 1999 Chev Astro Van, bought it for less than $20k.

I think if I add up all 13 vehicles I’ve ever owned, it might come to about $20k, maybe a little more.   I like a pickup for bikes – I don’t worry about weather; it’s not a problem for a properly maintained bike.

Response:

That was my problem.  I’m 6′3" on a good day. Ray | I have an Expedition that configured the same way.  No problem with saddle | height until the 6′2" and above riders put their bikes in.  I can easily | carry three bikes and three people, all inside, by folding down the 2/3 | split seat. | | The Isuzu Trooper is one of the few, maybe the only, SUV that will allow a | bike to stand up in the back on a front fork mount internal rack. | | This same thread happened here in 1995.  There were a thousand different | responses and I bought a Trooper and a matching one for my wife as well. | We’re both still happy with them. | | Ray | | | This may be a little off topic but I am currently looking for a new car, | and | | am looking for advice on what is a good bike carrying car. | | | | I want to be able to take 2 bikes to a triathlon, keep them inside the | | vehicle (out of the weather) and still have a back seat.  I’m currently | in | a | | Jeep Cherokee and not only can you not use the back seat with bikes | inside, | | you can’t even lean the front seats back a little. | | | | I’ve looked at the suburban, which would be ideal, but it’s a little out | of | | my price range for the features I want.  Anyone with a Yukon/Tahoe or an | | Excursion out there want to clue me in on how well bikes (and luggage) | fit | | in the back with the 2nd row seat not folded down?  Any other cars | people | | like for this?  I’m also considering a conversion van but it seems that | to | | be usefull you’d have to remove the sofa in the back. | | | | | | James | | | | | | | |

Response:

This may be a little off topic but I am currently looking for a new car, and am looking for advice on what is a good bike carrying car.

James, I have utilized a VW Eurovan since 1993 and just purchased a new one this year.  It holds two bikes inside and still has space for five people.  I have mounted topside racks for use when there are over two bikes.  MPG when bikes are inside is 20; when topside, MPG is 17.5. Bob

Response:

I have some friends who had a Pontiac Montana minivan.  They could fit 4 bikes, 4 passengers, and gear in there. Minivans are better bets that sport utes, because they have more height inside the vehicles. Carol

Response:

I have some friends who had a Pontiac Montana minivan.  They could fit 4 bikes, 4 passengers, and gear in there. Minivans are better bets that sport utes, because they have more height inside the vehicles.

Rock’n'Roll Tri, yesterday.  People arrriving at 5:30, downtown Cleveland.  CLosest parking lot, less than 1000 ft. from transition area, no attendant yet, no way in.  Lots of SUV’s and trucks driving over curb and around gate, free parking. Minivan attampted to emulate; high centered on curb, barely managed to back off, to drive up a couple blocks away and pay $10 to park. Ground clearance can be handy.  (At least the guy in the BMX Z3 was smart enough not to even attempt it.)

Response:

Check out the explorer sport trac (http://www.fordvehicles.com/suvs/explorersporttrac/) A friend has one and she can get 6 bikes in there without sacrificing the back seat (4 in the cab and 2 on the roof). Dan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This may be a little off topic but I am currently looking for a new car, and am looking for advice on what is a good bike carrying car. James, I have utilized a VW Eurovan since 1993 and just purchased a new one this year.  It holds two bikes inside and still has space for five people.  I have mounted topside racks for use when there are over two bikes.  MPG when bikes are inside is 20; when topside, MPG is 17.5. Bob

Response:

My parents are using a 2000 Dodge Grand Caravan.  2 hybrid comfort bikes (yes, they are my parents) fit behind the 3rd seat when it is slid forward.  They use a simple fork mount purchased from Nashbar for about $15 fastened to a piece of 2×4.  The bikes actually fit across the back of the van with the front wheels removed and the forks fastened to the mount. In a pinch I think you could still seat people in the third seat, and you could certainly put in a bunch of luggage if not using the third seat.

Response:

I understand that the Nissan XTerra is supposed to have a front fork rack inside that will hold at least two bikes upright.   I don’t have one, though, so I’m relying upon their ads for that info… — Aloha, -Ben- http://home.hawaii.rr.com/schorr **I apologize but I am unable to respond to direct requests for assistance. Please post questions and replies here in the newsgroup.  Mahalo!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The Isuzu Trooper is one of the few, maybe the only, SUV that will allow a bike to stand up in the back on a front fork mount internal rack. This same thread happened here in 1995.  There were a thousand different responses and I bought a Trooper and a matching one for my wife as well. We’re both still happy with them. Ray | This may be a little off topic but I am currently looking for a new car, and | am looking for advice on what is a good bike carrying car. | | I want to be able to take 2 bikes to a triathlon, keep them inside the | vehicle (out of the weather) and still have a back seat.  I’m currently in a | Jeep Cherokee and not only can you not use the back seat with bikes inside, | you can’t even lean the front seats back a little. | | I’ve looked at the suburban, which would be ideal, but it’s a little out of | my price range for the features I want.  Anyone with a Yukon/Tahoe or an | Excursion out there want to clue me in on how well bikes (and luggage) fit | in the back with the 2nd row seat not folded down?  Any other cars people | like for this?  I’m also considering a conversion van but it seems that to | be usefull you’d have to remove the sofa in the back. | | | James | |

Response:

HI We bought an Xterra in March……the inside rack will only take mountain bikes so we cant put our softrides with syntaces in their.  We bought 2 ankle biters from Yakima and roof mounted them instead, works great….. Ally whose goals and aspirations lead her to stupidly train for too much stuff entirely!!!

Response:

Have Used an Expedition for 4 yrs… can fit 3 bikes by dropping the long portion of the split rear seat and still fit 3 people and luggage (I’m 5′11 w/ a high seat never had to remove seat).  Or, 4 bike fit very snuggly (kind of a pain)in the back (positioned parallel to the seats) with plenty of room for 4 people that travel light. In each bike packing method, I removed the front wheel and locked them in a bike mount supported on a metal with a rubber coated bottom and ditched the third rear seat. FYI Joe – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This may be a little off topic but I am currently looking for a new car, and am looking for advice on what is a good bike carrying car. I want to be able to take 2 bikes to a triathlon, keep them inside the vehicle (out of the weather) and still have a back seat.  I’m currently in a Jeep Cherokee and not only can you not use the back seat with bikes inside, you can’t even lean the front seats back a little. I’ve looked at the suburban, which would be ideal, but it’s a little out of my price range for the features I want.  Anyone with a Yukon/Tahoe or an Excursion out there want to clue me in on how well bikes (and luggage) fit in the back with the 2nd row seat not folded down?  Any other cars people like for this?  I’m also considering a conversion van but it seems that to be usefull you’d have to remove the sofa in the back. James

Response:

A Hummer! Yea, now thats the ticket! B.Oliver – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -This may be a little off topic but I am currently looking for a new car, and am looking for advice on what is a good bike carrying car. I want to be able to take 2 bikes to a triathlon, keep them inside the vehicle (out of the weather) and still have a back seat.  I’m currently in a Jeep Cherokee and not only can you not use the back seat with bikes inside, you can’t even lean the front seats back a little.

Response:

Question:

I met my triathlon partner through this Site Why don’t you try your luck! — DREAM  MATES The Web’s Favorite Meeting Place! http://www.dreammates.com/index.cfm?aid=450539 Create Your FREE Profile & Mailbox

Response:

The guy and his ‘buddy’ are into kiddy porn and posting ‘male’ photos to ‘kids’ on newsgroups. and have a look at the nice stuff you get. LW

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I met my triathlon partner through this Site Why don’t you try your luck! — DREAM  MATES The Web’s Favorite Meeting Place! http://www.dreammates.com/index.cfm?aid=450539 Create Your FREE Profile & Mailbox

Response:

Question:

I have recently purchased some tri-bars for my road bike (Cannondale R500) and am looking for opinions on whether or not I should adjust my seat post angle. There is a lot of information out there most of which says that I should move my saddle forward and/or reverse my seat post to achieve a seat post angle of around 78 deg (it is currently 73-74). However I’ve just got back from my local bike shop and and the mechanic there (who’s a state champ time trialler) says that that’s old thinking and most people who do time trials or tris have gone back to conventional seat post angles of around 74 deg. He actually talked me out of buying a forward seat post from him so it seems a fairly honest opinion. I would be interested to hear how other’s have set there bikes up. If you do respond could you let me know your level of experience/knowledge. Although I would be greatful for all responses I would probably place a higher weighting on a more experienced person’s opinion. Thanks. David Perks.

Response:

what places around indiana can ppl suggest? thank.s -anu           "There’ll be plenty of time to rest in the grave." -Paul Erdos

Response:

to back up lloyd, when boardman broke the hour record (not the new old one, the one where you could use some mechanical edge…) the seat tube angle was 80 degres… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – From your posting you are in Australia?? I would take anything an Australian bike shop mechanic says about Triathlons and bike set-up and throw it in the bin! I’ve built TT bikes for the whole AIS TT squad and I seriously doubt they have done much, if any, testing with seattube angles etc to be able to much such a big judgement call about what some might perceive as simply a "steep" angled set-up. There are more than enough websites out there with handfuls of very useful advice for setting up a specific person in a good Triathlon TT position. That’s what it is all about fitting a specific person and getting an optimal seattube angle/bike design for that person not making blanket statements about "steep" angled designs simply because it didn’t work for one person. I have sponsored and designed bikes for athletes who have won at just about every major competition from Sprint distance to Ultraman and I have never though or recommended that any of the people I have designed bikes for would be better off on a "std" road bike set-up. My level of knowledge is about on par with my golf game. Lloyd I have recently purchased some tri-bars for my road bike (Cannondale R500) and am looking for opinions on whether or not I should adjust my seat post angle. There is a lot of information out there most of which says that I should move my saddle forward and/or reverse my seat post to achieve a seat post angle of around 78 deg (it is currently 73-74). However I’ve just got back from my local bike shop and and the mechanic there (who’s a state champ time trialler) says that that’s old thinking and most people who do time trials or tris have gone back to conventional seat post angles of around 74 deg. He actually talked me out of buying a forward seat post from him so it seems a fairly honest opinion. I would be interested to hear how other’s have set there bikes up. If you do respond could you let me know your level of experience/knowledge. Although I would be greatful for all responses I would probably place a higher weighting on a more experienced person’s opinion. Thanks. David Perks.

Response:

Check out John Cobb’s website.  He has done extensive work in the wind tunnels at Texas A&M with Lance Armstrong, USPS and a number of high profile time trial champions and elite triahletes. http://www.bicyclesports.com/ I have recently purchased some tri-bars for my road bike (Cannondale R500)

and am looking for opinions on whether or not I should adjust my seat post angle. There is a lot of information out there most of which says that I should move

my saddle forward and/or reverse my seat post to achieve a seat post angle of around 78 deg (it is currently 73-74). However I’ve just got back from my local bike shop and and the mechanic there (who’s a state champ time trialler) says that that’s old thinking and most people who do time trials or tris have gone back to conventional seat post angles of around 74 deg. He actually talked me out of buying a forward seat post from him so it seems a fairly honest opinion. I would be interested to hear how other’s have set there bikes up. If you do

respond could you let me know your level of experience/knowledge.Although I would be greatful for all responses I would probably place a higher weighting on a more experienced person’s opinion.

Response:

Thanks for the advise and web site. Now to the problem at hand. I want to experiment with seat angles on my road   bike (Cannondale R500). The seat angle is around 74 deg now (based on the measuring method at www.slowtwitch.com) and I’d like to increase it to around 77 deg to start experimenting. I can’t get my seat forward enough to give me this angle and my seat post is not reversible. Is it as simple as getting one of those Profile forward seat posts and go from there? If that is the answer then how does that sit with conventional wisdom that says knee (or dimple behind the knee) should be over the peddle spindle when the peddles are in the ‘quarter to three position’? Most bike fitting articles say that the saddle should be positioned to achieve this result not to get a particular seat tube angle. Is it a case of making a sacrifice in power to achieve more of an aerodynamic gain?. Or does this position help to preserve ‘running muscles’ for when the bike leg has finished? Slowtwitch say it is to preserve the 90 deg angle between trunk and seat post that is the most powerful postion. If this is the case then they are saying that the ‘knee of spindle’ rule does not apply in the aero position. I know some of you will think ‘Just go out and buy a new tri bike from a reputable dealer and have them set it up for you’ but unfortunately that’s not an option right now. Lloyd, I’d be interested to hear your ideas. Thanks, Dave.

Response:

I don’t set people up with much thought to the position of the knee joint, in fact I don’t remember ever checking. Moving your seat forward does change a lot of the dynamics of cycling and how the power is applied to the pedal and what muscle groups bare the brunt of the load, as Dan rightly says in his articles the angle of your thigh/torso is important more so than moving your seat back to get a theoreticaly perfect knee position. As you move forward your seat height will change you will raise the seat and you will also find your ability to spin is decreased. My recomendation would be to play around but remember to get your saddle height correct then give it some time not just a quick squirt around the block. LW – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks for the advise and web site. Now to the problem at hand. I want to experiment with seat angles on my road bike (Cannondale R500). The seat angle is around 74 deg now (based on the measuring method at www.slowtwitch.com) and I’d like to increase it to around 77 deg to start experimenting. I can’t get my seat forward enough to give me this angle and my seat post is not reversible. Is it as simple as getting one of those Profile forward seat posts and go from there? If that is the answer then how does that sit with conventional wisdom that says knee (or dimple behind the knee) should be over the peddle spindle when the peddles are in the ‘quarter to three position’? Most bike fitting articles say that the saddle should be positioned to achieve this result not to get a particular seat tube angle. Is it a case of making a sacrifice in power to achieve more of an aerodynamic gain?. Or does this position help to preserve ‘running muscles’ for when the bike leg has finished? Slowtwitch say it is to preserve the 90 deg angle between trunk and seat post that is the most powerful postion. If this is the case then they are saying that the ‘knee of spindle’ rule does not apply in the aero position. I know some of you will think ‘Just go out and buy a new tri bike from a reputable dealer and have them set it up for you’ but unfortunately that’s not an option right now. Lloyd, I’d be interested to hear your ideas. Thanks, Dave.

Response:

From your posting you are in Australia?? I would take anything an Australian bike shop mechanic says about Triathlons and bike set-up and throw it in the bin! I’ve built TT bikes for the whole AIS TT squad and I seriously doubt they have done much, if any, testing with seattube angles etc to be able to much such a big judgement call about what some might perceive as simply a "steep" angled set-up. There are more than enough websites out there with handfuls of very useful advice for setting up a specific person in a good Triathlon TT position. That’s what it is all about fitting a specific person and getting an optimal seattube angle/bike design for that person not making blanket statements about "steep" angled designs simply because it didn’t work for one person. I have sponsored and designed bikes for athletes who have won at just about every major competition from Sprint distance to Ultraman and I have never though or recommended that any of the people I have designed bikes for would be better off on a "std" road bike set-up. My level of knowledge is about on par with my golf game. Lloyd – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have recently purchased some tri-bars for my road bike (Cannondale R500) and am looking for opinions on whether or not I should adjust my seat post angle. There is a lot of information out there most of which says that I should move my saddle forward and/or reverse my seat post to achieve a seat post angle of around 78 deg (it is currently 73-74). However I’ve just got back from my local bike shop and and the mechanic there (who’s a state champ time trialler) says that that’s old thinking and most people who do time trials or tris have gone back to conventional seat post angles of around 74 deg. He actually talked me out of buying a forward seat post from him so it seems a fairly honest opinion. I would be interested to hear how other’s have set there bikes up. If you do respond could you let me know your level of experience/knowledge. Although I would be greatful for all responses I would probably place a higher weighting on a more experienced person’s opinion. Thanks. David Perks.

Response:

Question:

(Wade Blomgren) writes:

| …  And, not the same thing as tossing a tube to a peer by the side of | the road… My god, if someone needs a tube in order to pee at the side of the road, I don’t think they should be participating in triathlons!                                         rich

Response:

(Wade Blomgren) writes: | …  And, not the same thing as tossing a tube to a peer by the side of | the road… My god, if someone needs a tube in order to pee at the side of the road, I don’t think they should be participating in triathlons!                                    rich

Good one. But I think you got it wrong. I think Wade was talking about some nobleman. And nobility dont pee. They relieve themselves. Aaah…

Response:

The proper thing for the person who flated at Wildflower , would be ( as he did) to thank the person for the help, then report to the Head Ref and DQ himself. I have had several people over the years come up to me and turn in their numbers and explain why they though they should be DQed, very honorable.

Did you DQ them?  Must you DQ them?  I was in a Tri-Fed race a few years ago, and the leading four men in my swim wave turned prior to the last buoy.  I even stopped swimming to ask the marshal in the canoe if they missed it (they did).  I then lodged a complaint (I think I can’t protest such a thing).  The RD told me by snail mail that (at least some of) these guys had turned themselves in after the race.  They were commended for their honesty and the results stood (including the overall winner). Ken Lehner

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Whew!  I guess I’m off the hook.  If one of my fellow competitors crashes into a ditch, I don’t have to stop and render assistance.  I can just say, "Good luck with your problem, but it’s against the rules for me to try and stop your bleeding…" You know, I think I will continue with my random acts of good sportsmanship and altruism just to see who has enough brass ones to penalize me. Ray Plotecia Male Amateur, 50-54 Ruxton, MD

Ray Just as a clarification, the rule does not preclude you from lending assistance, it is the other way around , it is meant to keep someone from receiving outside assistance. And then continuing on with the rest of the race. The proper thing for the person who flated at Wildflower , would be ( as he did) to thank the person for the help, then report to the Head Ref and DQ himself. I have had several people over the years come up to me and turn in their numbers and explain why they though they should be DQed, very honorable. See everyone at Columbia, just 3 weeks away! Bruce Platt Chairman, USAT Safety and Rules Committee

Response:

I was just trying to thank a kind fellow competitor, not create a Tri-Fed rules debate. This was my 8th Wildflower long course and anyone who has done the coures knows they would rather be able to finish the race and be DQed rather than be stuck in no-mans land waiting for a sag wagon. Anyway by the time something like this is completed, you are well out of the top 25 in your age group. By the way I did crash badly in the 97 race and rest assured no one stopped to help with a broken collar bone,puctured lung and lots of road rash.

Don’t feel bad because you prompted a meaningful discussion.  The issue is important, and your situation prompted a lot of good exchange and some of us got to learn somtehing about how the rules work.  That’s nothing to disclaim responsility for.

Response:

I know that you were not trying to create a hassle, but this is r.s.t. and the most benign things (like, "Hey, I love my shades!") can cause a world class brouhaha.  It’s OK. I also know the rules and offered my post(s) in the hope that people would not be so tight-sphinctered about regulations that they would not help a fellow competitor who needed it. I also expect that officials would also unpucker their butts enough to see the difference between cheating and sportsmanship. I hope all the discussion in this thread helped to bring the rules into perspective. Ray Plotecia Male Amateur, 50-54 Ruxton, MD – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was just trying to thank a kind fellow competitor, not create a Tri-Fed rules debate. This was my 8th Wildflower long course and anyone who has done the coures knows they would rather be able to finish the race and be DQed rather than be stuck in no-mans land waiting for a sag wagon. Anyway by the time something like this is completed, you are well out of the top 25 in your age group. By the way I did crash badly in the 97 race and rest assured no one stopped to help with a broken collar bone,puctured lung and lots of road rash. Ray, Steve’s explanation was (IMHO) well-stated and I think you missed the point (re-read the part about "context"). -Tom Bonigut (Anti-spam: Replace .ORG with .COM to reply directly) Whew!  I guess I’m off the hook.  If one of my fellow competitors crashes into a ditch, I don’t have to stop and render assistance.  I can just say, "Good luck with your problem, but it’s against the rules for me to try and stop your bleeding…" You know, I think I will continue with my random acts of good sportsmanship and altruism just to see who has enough brass ones to penalize me. Ray Plotecia Male Amateur, 50-54 Ruxton, MD Its not outside assistance for another racer to pitch in.  The only thing we can’t give someone else is our wheel to suck. Actually, the rules say otherwise.  The way it’s written (section 3.4d, Unauthorized Assistance), it precludes help from a fellow participant as well as spectators: "No participant shall accept from any person (other than a race official) assistance in any form…" The only exception is information — you can get info on splits, competitor position and such from bystanders.  The term "race official" includes any volunteer working the race.  The basic rule of thumb I’ve been given is that whatever help is accepted by an athlete has to be available, in theory at least, to everyone.  The cardinal sin under this section would be team tactics, of course.  Things like a team support van out on the course. It might be argued (and no doubt will) that a random act of good sportsmanship by a random participant for another random participant would, in theory, be available to anyone, should circumstances permit.  Under the letter of the rule, it would still be illegal.  If an official were to witness such an event, he or she would be justified in writing it up and presenting it to the head referee for review.  However, a trained official would also be trying to view it in the context of the competition, and would factor that information into his or her own assessment, as well as providing it to the head ref during the review process.  The objective is a fair competition, not a longer (or shorter) penalty list. Tellus Venture Associates "Certainly the game is rigged. Don’t let that stop you; if you don’t bet, you can’t win."  R.A.H.

Response:

Bruce, read Charlie’s post, please. Also, try to decide if a person IN the race is considered OUTSIDE assistance. Ray Plotecia Male Amateur, 50-54 Ruxton, MD – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I agree that if the person who received the outside assistance placed in the race (or was up in the USAT rankings) then DQ is appropriate. No one can argue with that, since an advantage was gained and it had an effect on competition. Folks, outside assistance is only a time penalty, not a DQ. Lighten up everyone. -Charlie

Response:

Ray I am usually a pretty light hearted guy with a huge touch of sarcasm thrown in (which BTW is usually what gets me in trouble) The following is a description of the Assistance rule, FOR EDUCATIONAL PURPOSES ONLY! Rule 3.4d states: "Unauthorized Assistance. No participant shall accept from any person (other than a race official) assistance in any form, including food, drink, equipment, support, pacing, a replacement bicycle or bicycle parts, unless an express exception has been granted and approved, in writing, by USA Triathlon. The receipt of information regarding the progress, split times, or location of other participants on the racecourse shall not be considered the acceptance of unauthorized assistance. Any violation of this section shall result in a variable time penalty." Now Rule 9.1 Defines a "Race Official": "The Race Officials at all events shall consist of a Head Referee, Marshals, Judges, and a Head Timer….." So to answer your question, first it is "unauthorized" assistance not "outside " and the only people from whom you can accept assistance from without penalty are those as described in rule 9.1. So you cannot  accept assistance from a fellow competitor. The examples sited on RST are pretty innocous and dont seem to deserve a rule with this much teeth. But in the past there have been some pretty blatant violations of this rule, which leads to the reason it is in the book. Bruce Platt Chairman, USAT Safety & Rules Committee USAT CAT 1 Official Really lousy triathlete… 2 time finisher 24 Hours of Canaan! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bruce, read Charlie’s post, please. Also, try to decide if a person IN the race is considered OUTSIDE assistance. Ray Plotecia Male Amateur, 50-54 Ruxton, MD I agree that if the person who received the outside assistance placed in the race (or was up in the USAT rankings) then DQ is appropriate. No one can argue with that, since an advantage was gained and it had an effect on competition. Folks, outside assistance is only a time penalty, not a DQ. Lighten up everyone. -Charlie

Response:

An interesting thread.  Just to add an interesting side note: At St. Croix a few years back, a couple of pros (I believe it was Riccitello and Hobson) were racing head to head.  One of them flatted, and the other tossed him his spare tire.  This was pointed out in the TV broadcast as a sterling example of good sportsmanship, and I don’t believe any penalties were assigned either way.

        Just a hypothetical for illustration here, but…  Say you were in second place overall in a race during the bike segment, and the leader got a flat, and his pump had some bizarre failure.  In those circumstances, I would toss my pump and make a first class stink if they DQ’d him.  If I beat him, I’d want it to be a "race of truth" as people so often cite, where I beat him because I was in better shape, NOT because Zefal had a bad day in quality control.  In fact, if he subsequently pulled ahead of me and was DQ’d I’d refuse to accept the award (it’s easy to say when there’s precious little chance of ever having to face the choice, of course.)  It really doesn’t serve competitiveness to place people at the mercy of a third party equipment manufacturer’s mistakes – even the most expensive products fail unexpectedly.  While the counterexample of using another rider as a pack mule is obviously a problem, is that any less competitive than one person’s checkbook allowing them to cut their bike’s weight by more than the weight of the spares needed?  It seems the real problem is not assistance, but favoritism in giving it out. As with the drafting issue, there is a paradox. There is the dilemma for officials to distinguish between random acts of good sportsmanship and premeditated "pack mule" style collusion.  Perhaps what we need is a post race polygraph test for all questionable incidents.

Response:

I agree that if the person who received the outside assistance placed in the race (or was up in the USAT rankings) then DQ is appropriate. No one can argue with that, since an advantage was gained and it had an effect on competition.

Folks, outside assistance is only a time penalty, not a DQ. Lighten up everyone. -Charlie

Response:

But for me,  the difference between last in my AG and DQ is relatively minor. <g Mike Tennent

Hey, Mike, no way, what difference could be greater?  There is more difference between last in AG and DQ (or DNF, or DNS) than between winning an IMH slot and missing the slot by one place… — Eric Pederson

Response:

An interesting thread.  Just to add an interesting side note: At St. Croix a few years back, a couple of pros (I believe it was Riccitello and Hobson) were racing head to head.  One of them flatted, and the other tossed him his spare tire.  This was pointed out in the TV broadcast as a sterling example of good sportsmanship, and I don’t believe any penalties were assigned either way. Just 2 more cents.

I remember watching the Ironman telecast several years ago ( my mind is slipping so I might have this completley screwed up) As much as I can remember, Greg Welch flatted  and was standing by the side of the road when Sian Welch came by and gave him her wheel, while a marshal stood by and did nothing , I was incensed. Also… just so everyone knows the Head Ref assigns the penalty on reports from his marshals and has discretion , and most of us use good judgement. And Although I wont be carrying any bar end plugs, I once did give a pro a chain tool  so he could fix his bike and finish, he was already in last place and atleast he got to finish. As for those who feel they broke the rules and voluntarily DQ themselves, I always try to comply with their wishes. Bruce Platt

Response:

Ray, Steve’s explanation was (IMHO) well-stated and I think you missed the point (re-read the part about "context"). -Tom Bonigut (Anti-spam: Replace .ORG with .COM to reply directly) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Whew!  I guess I’m off the hook.  If one of my fellow competitors crashes into a ditch, I don’t have to stop and render assistance.  I can just say, "Good luck with your problem, but it’s against the rules for me to try and stop your bleeding…" You know, I think I will continue with my random acts of good sportsmanship and altruism just to see who has enough brass ones to penalize me. Ray Plotecia Male Amateur, 50-54 Ruxton, MD

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Its not outside assistance for another racer to pitch in.  The only thing we can’t give someone else is our wheel to suck. Actually, the rules say otherwise.  The way it’s written (section 3.4d, Unauthorized Assistance), it precludes help from a fellow participant as well as spectators: "No participant shall accept from any person (other than a race official) assistance in any form…" The only exception is information — you can get info on splits, competitor position and such from bystanders.  The term "race official" includes any volunteer working the race.  The basic rule of thumb I’ve been given is that whatever help is accepted by an athlete has to be available, in theory at least, to everyone.  The cardinal sin under this section would be team tactics, of course.  Things like a team support van out on the course. It might be argued (and no doubt will) that a random act of good sportsmanship by a random participant for another random participant would, in theory, be available to anyone, should circumstances permit.  Under the letter of the rule, it would still be illegal.  If an official were to witness such an event, he or she would be justified in writing it up and presenting it to the head referee for review.  However, a trained official would also be trying to view it in the context of the competition, and would factor that information into his or her own assessment, as well as providing it to the head ref during the review process.  The objective is a fair competition, not a longer (or shorter) penalty list. Tellus Venture Associates "Certainly the game is rigged. Don’t let that stop you; if you don’t bet, you can’t win."  R.A.H.

Response:

Didn’t miss it.  Please re-read my post and stop being so uptight about everything on this ng. Ray – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ray, Steve’s explanation was (IMHO) well-stated and I think you missed the point (re-read the part about "context"). -Tom Bonigut (Anti-spam: Replace .ORG with .COM to reply directly) Whew!  I guess I’m off the hook.  If one of my fellow competitors crashes into a ditch, I don’t have to stop and render assistance.  I can just say, "Good luck with your problem, but it’s against the rules for me to try and stop your bleeding…" You know, I think I will continue with my random acts of good sportsmanship and altruism just to see who has enough brass ones to penalize me. Ray Plotecia Male Amateur, 50-54 Ruxton, MD Its not outside assistance for another racer to pitch in.  The only thing we can’t give someone else is our wheel to suck. Actually, the rules say otherwise.  The way it’s written (section 3.4d, Unauthorized Assistance), it precludes help from a fellow participant as well as spectators: "No participant shall accept from any person (other than a race official) assistance in any form…" The only exception is information — you can get info on splits, competitor position and such from bystanders.  The term "race official" includes any volunteer working the race.  The basic rule of thumb I’ve been given is that whatever help is accepted by an athlete has to be available, in theory at least, to everyone.  The cardinal sin under this section would be team tactics, of course.  Things like a team support van out on the course. It might be argued (and no doubt will) that a random act of good sportsmanship by a random participant for another random participant would, in theory, be available to anyone, should circumstances permit.  Under the letter of the rule, it would still be illegal.  If an official were to witness such an event, he or she would be justified in writing it up and presenting it to the head referee for review.  However, a trained official would also be trying to view it in the context of the competition, and would factor that information into his or her own assessment, as well as providing it to the head ref during the review process.  The objective is a fair competition, not a longer (or shorter) penalty list. Tellus Venture Associates "Certainly the game is rigged. Don’t let that stop you; if you don’t bet, you can’t win."  R.A.H.

Response:

An interesting thread.  Just to add an interesting side note: At St. Croix a few years back, a couple of pros (I believe it was Riccitello and Hobson) were racing head to head.  One of them flatted, and the other tossed him his spare tire.  This was pointed out in the TV broadcast as a sterling example of good sportsmanship, and I don’t believe any penalties were assigned either way. Just 2 more cents. In article – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The proper thing for the person who flated at Wildflower , would be ( as he did) to thank the person for the help, then report to the Head Ref and DQ himself. I have had several people over the years come up to me and turn in their numbers and explain why they though they should be DQed, very honorable. See everyone at Columbia, just 3 weeks away! Bruce Platt This is a tough one. I agree that if the person who received the outside assistance placed in the race (or was up in the USAT rankings) then DQ is appropriate. No one can argue with that, since an advantage was gained and it had an effect on competition. But I think Ray is talking about the rest of us.  In the back of the pack,  it’s "no harm, no foul,"  so what’s the big deal? But how do you know there’s no harm?  What if the guy you throw a pump to is actually an age group contender? With wave starts, who knows where anyone is in relation to their competition?  And what if they catch a person in their AG who got no assistance?  Then it is a big deal. But as Bruce points out, it’s the person receiving the aid that is DQ’d, not the giver.  And it is encumbent upon the racer to DQ themselves if it matters.  But for me,  the difference between last in my AG and DQ is relatively minor. <g Mike Tennent "IronPenguin" Ironman Canada ‘98 16:17:03

– Tri-Baby                                      _                                   –    o      ’             –  __o       –    </_  `     ‘         –    <         – __/    /o_         – (()) (())        -  / "Real triathletes don’t draft." http://www.stanford.edu/~brooksie *New to triathlon?  Check out Hulaman’s Simple TriTips:  http://www.hulaman.com/triathlon/tritips.html    

Response:

The proper thing for the person who flated at Wildflower , would be ( as he did) to thank the person for the help, then report to the Head Ref and DQ himself. I have had several people over the years come up to me and turn in their numbers and explain why they though they should be DQed, very honorable. See everyone at Columbia, just 3 weeks away! Bruce Platt

This is a tough one. I agree that if the person who received the outside assistance placed in the race (or was up in the USAT rankings) then DQ is appropriate. No one can argue with that, since an advantage was gained and it had an effect on competition. But I think Ray is talking about the rest of us.  In the back of the pack,  it’s "no harm, no foul,"  so what’s the big deal? But how do you know there’s no harm?  What if the guy you throw a pump to is actually an age group contender? With wave starts, who knows where anyone is in relation to their competition?  And what if they catch a person in their AG who got no assistance?  Then it is a big deal. But as Bruce points out, it’s the person receiving the aid that is DQ’d, not the giver.  And it is encumbent upon the racer to DQ themselves if it matters.  But for me,  the difference between last in my AG and DQ is relatively minor. <g Mike Tennent "IronPenguin" Ironman Canada ‘98 16:17:03

Response:

I was just trying to thank a kind fellow competitor, not create a Tri-Fed rules debate. This was my 8th Wildflower long course and anyone who has done the coures knows they would rather be able to finish the race and be DQed rather than be stuck in no-mans land waiting for a sag wagon. Anyway by the time something like this is completed, you are well out of the top 25 in your age group. By the way I did crash badly in the 97 race and rest assured no one stopped to help with a broken collar bone,puctured lung and lots of road rash. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ray, Steve’s explanation was (IMHO) well-stated and I think you missed the point (re-read the part about "context"). -Tom Bonigut (Anti-spam: Replace .ORG with .COM to reply directly) Whew!  I guess I’m off the hook.  If one of my fellow competitors crashes into a ditch, I don’t have to stop and render assistance.  I can just say, "Good luck with your problem, but it’s against the rules for me to try and stop your bleeding…" You know, I think I will continue with my random acts of good sportsmanship and altruism just to see who has enough brass ones to penalize me. Ray Plotecia Male Amateur, 50-54 Ruxton, MD Its not outside assistance for another racer to pitch in.  The only thing we can’t give someone else is our wheel to suck. Actually, the rules say otherwise.  The way it’s written (section 3.4d, Unauthorized Assistance), it precludes help from a fellow participant as well as spectators: "No participant shall accept from any person (other than a race official) assistance in any form…" The only exception is information — you can get info on splits, competitor position and such from bystanders.  The term "race official" includes any volunteer working the race.  The basic rule of thumb I’ve been given is that whatever help is accepted by an athlete has to be available, in theory at least, to everyone.  The cardinal sin under this section would be team tactics, of course.  Things like a team support van out on the course. It might be argued (and no doubt will) that a random act of good sportsmanship by a random participant for another random participant would, in theory, be available to anyone, should circumstances permit.  Under the letter of the rule, it would still be illegal.  If an official were to witness such an event, he or she would be justified in writing it up and presenting it to the head referee for review.  However, a trained official would also be trying to view it in the context of the competition, and would factor that information into his or her own assessment, as well as providing it to the head ref during the review process.  The objective is a fair competition, not a longer (or shorter) penalty list. Tellus Venture Associates "Certainly the game is rigged. Don’t let that stop you; if you don’t bet, you can’t win."  R.A.H.

Response:

She rode by and threw me her pump ( at mile 8 !!) it is nice that you want to return the pump, but you meant that it fell off her bike, not that you received outside assistance right   Bruce Platt Is it OUTSIDE assistance if it came from someone else IN the race? That sounds a bit fishy to me. You mean I can’t give someone a drink of water either? Or a Gu?   myke

What about the people, on the course, I hear saying  "PLEASE HELP ME, GOD!!!!"     DQ??????     D.J. " we need an official to fill in for the one hit by lightning" (IRONKID)

Response:

Outside assistance?  That was inside assistance.  Bruce, you of all people don’t want to keep us from helping our fellow competitor in a race.  Its not outside assistance for another racer to pitch in.  The only thing we can’t give someone else is our wheel to suck. Ray Plotecia Male Amateur, 50-54 Ruxton, MD – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anyone know the Woman at mile 8 in the long course who gave me her pump. I was stranded for  more than 25 minutes becase a flat and a broken CO2 inflator . She rode by and threw me her pump ( at mile 8 !!). She yelled her race # by I did not catch it all ( 1634? 1622?..16?4 ). I did not want to leave the pump at the  wrong bike rack so I gave it to the race announcer. I hope she got it back. I would like to thank her somehow. ….a thankful # 804 it is nice that you want to return the pump, but you meant that it fell off her bike, not that you received outside assistance right   Bruce Platt

Response:

Its not outside assistance for another racer to pitch in.  The only thing we can’t give someone else is our wheel to suck.

Actually, the rules say otherwise.  The way it’s written (section 3.4d, Unauthorized Assistance), it precludes help from a fellow participant as well as spectators: "No participant shall accept from any person (other than a race official) assistance in any form…" The only exception is information — you can get info on splits, competitor position and such from bystanders.  The term "race official" includes any volunteer working the race.  The basic rule of thumb I’ve been given is that whatever help is accepted by an athlete has to be available, in theory at least, to everyone.  The cardinal sin under this section would be team tactics, of course.  Things like a team support van out on the course. It might be argued (and no doubt will) that a random act of good sportsmanship by a random participant for another random participant would, in theory, be available to anyone, should circumstances permit.  Under the letter of the rule, it would still be illegal.  If an official were to witness such an event, he or she would be justified in writing it up and presenting it to the head referee for review.  However, a trained official would also be trying to view it in the context of the competition, and would factor that information into his or her own assessment, as well as providing it to the head ref during the review process.  The objective is a fair competition, not a longer (or shorter) penalty list. Tellus Venture Associates "Certainly the game is rigged. Don’t let that stop you; if you don’t bet, you can’t win."  R.A.H.

Response:

Whew!  I guess I’m off the hook.  If one of my fellow competitors crashes into a ditch, I don’t have to stop and render assistance.  I can just say, "Good luck with your problem, but it’s against the rules for me to try and stop your bleeding…" You know, I think I will continue with my random acts of good sportsmanship and altruism just to see who has enough brass ones to penalize me. Ray Plotecia Male Amateur, 50-54 Ruxton, MD – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Its not outside assistance for another racer to pitch in.  The only thing we can’t give someone else is our wheel to suck. Actually, the rules say otherwise.  The way it’s written (section 3.4d, Unauthorized Assistance), it precludes help from a fellow participant as well as spectators: "No participant shall accept from any person (other than a race official) assistance in any form…" The only exception is information — you can get info on splits, competitor position and such from bystanders.  The term "race official" includes any volunteer working the race.  The basic rule of thumb I’ve been given is that whatever help is accepted by an athlete has to be available, in theory at least, to everyone.  The cardinal sin under this section would be team tactics, of course.  Things like a team support van out on the course. It might be argued (and no doubt will) that a random act of good sportsmanship by a random participant for another random participant would, in theory, be available to anyone, should circumstances permit.  Under the letter of the rule, it would still be illegal.  If an official were to witness such an event, he or she would be justified in writing it up and presenting it to the head referee for review.  However, a trained official would also be trying to view it in the context of the competition, and would factor that information into his or her own assessment, as well as providing it to the head ref during the review process.  The objective is a fair competition, not a longer (or shorter) penalty list. Tellus Venture Associates "Certainly the game is rigged. Don’t let that stop you; if you don’t bet, you can’t win."  R.A.H.

Response:

: Its not : outside assistance for another racer to pitch in.  The only thing we can’t : give someone else is our wheel to suck. : Actually, the rules say otherwise.  The way it’s written (section 3.4d, : Unauthorized Assistance), it precludes help from a fellow participant as well : as spectators: : "No participant shall accept from any person (other than a race official) : It might be argued (and no doubt will) that a random act of good sportsmanship : by a random participant for another random participant would, in theory, be : available to anyone, should circumstances permit.  Under the letter of the : rule, it would still be illegal.   The underlying problem being, if unchecked assistance from "fellow competitors" were allowed, then, for example, a top age 60-64 male age grouper could arrange with a speedy 25 year old female cyclist for her to ride (position-legal) nearby, carrying all his spare tire paraphernalia, water bottles, food, and miscellaneous clothing items, to be provided as needed.  Hey, let’s even swap his aero wheels for her stupidlight climbing wheels at the base of that last climb!!  Similarly for the run – here, run ahead and fill that bottle you are carrying for me so I never have to stop.  Not exactly fair.  And, not the same thing as tossing a tube to a peer by the side of the road, or handing water or a sponge to someone who was caught on the outside at an aid station (of course they should have their own parts, and should plan ahead for aid stations etc., but human nature being what it sometimes is or used to be, people might actually make a friendly gesture from time to time). My understanding has been that as long as the assistance passes through a race official or volunteer, it would then be allowed. For example you could give a tube or a pump to a course marshal who could give it to a person with a flat.  A spectator could even give a wheel to an official to give to a racer (assuming there was neutral wheel support that just wasn’t around at that time).  Or, you could hand a gel packet to an aid station volunteer to give to a bonking runner. An extreme case is the table of discarded special needs goodies at the run turnaround at IMC, there for the taking as they have nominally been transmitted through race staff. Of course, there’s not always an official around to facilitate the casual, sportsmanship-like exchange, and there is the grey area. : However, a trained official would also be trying to view : it in the context of the competition, and would factor that information into : his or her own assessment, as well as providing it to the head ref during the : review process.  The objective is a fair competition, not a longer (or shorter) : penalty list. As it should be. Wade

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anyone know the Woman at mile 8 in the long course who gave me her pump. I was stranded for  more than 25 minutes becase a flat and a broken CO2 inflator . She rode by and threw me her pump ( at mile 8 !!). She yelled her race # by I did not catch it all ( 1634? 1622?..16?4 ). I did not want to leave the pump at the  wrong bike rack so I gave it to the race announcer. I hope she got it back. I would like to thank her somehow. ….a thankful # 804 it is nice that you want to return the pump, but you meant that it fell off her bike, not that you received outside assistance right   Bruce Platt

Is it OUTSIDE assistance if it came from someone else IN the race? That sounds a bit fishy to me. You mean I can’t give someone a drink of water either? Or a Gu? myke — Write Once, Debug Everywhere

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Anyone know the Woman at mile 8 in the long course who gave me her pump. I was stranded for  more than 25 minutes becase a flat and a broken CO2 inflator . She rode by and threw me her pump ( at mile 8 !!). She yelled her race # by I did not catch it all ( 1634? 1622?..16?4 ). I did not want to leave the pump at the  wrong bike rack so I gave it to the race announcer. I hope she got it back. I would like to thank her somehow. ….a thankful # 804

Response:

Anyone know the Woman at mile 8 in the long course who gave me her pump. I was stranded for  more than 25 minutes becase a flat and a broken CO2 inflator . She rode by and threw me her pump ( at mile 8 !!). She yelled her race # by I did not catch it all ( 1634? 1622?..16?4 ). I did not want to leave the pump at the  wrong bike rack so I gave it to the race announcer. I hope she got it back. I would like to thank her somehow. ….a thankful # 804

it is nice that you want to return the pump, but you meant that it fell off her bike, not that you received outside assistance right   Bruce Platt

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Question:

To put it bluntly: should I enter a short-ish race (5k, 10k) when I am entirely sure that I will be last?  … for the sake of argument, lets say I’m last, of the runners, by a long way.  Is it still fun?

I think it must be. I’m around the bottom of the top third in these races; after I’m through stretching and having something to drink and eat, I’ll go back to the chute to offer some encouragement to the bottom third who are just finishing. (I don’t do it because I’m such a charitable soul; I really just like to cheer for people who deserve it, and I’m not fast enough to cheer on the fast people!) Those back-of-the-pack folks are working hard, maybe they’re red-faced and out of breath (just like I was a few minutes ago!) but they seem very pleased with their accomplishment once they make it past the finish line. Do any of those slow people look happy to you as you guys speed past them?  I would like to try racing.  I think it would definetly be fun if I wasn’t so slow.  I wouldn’t feel so bad (I think) about being slow in a very long race, but the idea of a 5k disturbs me.  I could find easier ways to publicly embarrass myself I’m sure.

Don’t be disturbed. I think you know by now, based on these messages, that you won’t be "publicly embarassing" yourself if you run a race and come in dead last. We’re looking forward to reading your next race report. –Dirk

Response:

To put it bluntly: should I enter a short-ish race (5k, 10k) when I am entirely sure that I will be last?  (Of non-disabled people who are actually running.  I suppose I might be a smidge faster than some walkers…)

Laurel: You need to get yourself acquainted with the Penguin Brigade at www.waddle-on.com/ It’s for everyone, but mostly for slower runners. It was started by John Bingham, who’s recent book "The Courage To Start" is very inspirational. There’s a very supportive email list and at most major races you’ll find Penguins to join you at the back of the pack. Our track club has a Penguin group and they have fun together. Their motto is "No Penguin runs alone." If one of the group is feeling bad and has to stop and walk, at least one other Penguin stops with them.  They all run together at races and support each other. If you don’t have a Penguin group near you, start one! Anyway, for the sake of argument, lets say I’m last, of the runners, by a long way.  Is it still fun?  Do any of those slow people look happy to you as you guys speed past them?  I would like to try racing.  I think it would definetly be fun if I wasn’t so slow.  I wouldn’t feel so bad (I think) about being slow in a very long race, but the idea of a 5k disturbs me.  I could find easier ways to publicly embarrass myself I’m sure.

I recently did Jacksonville Marathon (a baaad mistake since I was not recovered from IMC) but I did it as a Penguin. It was a blast! Lots of people to chat with and run/walk with. Very relaxed and fun. Don’t get hung up on where you finish. I finished next to last at a Half-Ironman and I’m routinely last in my age group at anything longer than a sprint triathlon.  But I’m out there. 99.99% of the population isn’t. Mike Tennent "IronPenguin" ‘98 Ironman Canada, 16:17:03

Response:

(meaning, thoughts about racing, and, oddly, the thoughts are also racing themselves…) To put it bluntly: should I enter a short-ish race (5k, 10k) when I am entirely sure that I will be last?  (Of non-disabled people who are actually running.  I suppose I might be a smidge faster than some walkers…) Now don’t even try telling me that I can’t be *that* slow, and I won’t be last, cause I know I will.  Just trust me on this.  I have devised a confirmation procedure, detailed below, if you don’t believe me.

The only reason I have to trust that you’ll be last is because *I* won’t be running in the same race. If I were, you’d come in *next* to last! I ran a very short course triathlon once. I was seeded pretty high because they went by swim times and I’m a fast swimmer. I’m just slow at everything else. Anyway, I had no idea how I was doing. It hurt like it was an Ironman, and I threw up at the end. Um…you know…it was fun. heh. I got the results a week or so later and discovered that I was something like 396 out of a 400-person field! And I think the other 4 racers were the sponsor’s cats or something. But I finished. It was a personal thing. So yeah, it can be fun. Every runner, walker, crawler gets support, no matter how they finish. And next time, maybe you’ll race with me and you won’t be dead last! — Beverly Brandt bevbrandt at mindspring dot com

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To put it bluntly: should I enter a short-ish race (5k, 10k) when I am entirely sure that I will be last?  (Of non-disabled people who are actually running.  I suppose I might be a smidge faster than some walkers…) Hey Laurel!

 I understand completely.   I am a VERY slow runner, married to a very fast runner/triathelete guy.  I ran my first 5K last year, and yes, a walker or two beat me. I was not dead last, but pretty darn close.   It was very hard to watch all those people take off, and then to lose sight of them, knowing I’d never catch up. Heck, they were opening up the street to traffic before I finished. But I finished, to cheers and the smiling faces of strangers as well as a few friends/family. It was worth it. I ran a 10K a month later and DID manage to beat the walkers, but in a race of 700 people, only 18 finished after me. But it was worth it. I have found out that fast or slow, young or old, experienced or inexperienced, runners are a supportive and welcoming group.  And there is no better way to experience that then to run a race. You’d really be missing out if you didn’t try it—if you are very competitive it may be a bit tough on the old ego, but if you go into it for the fun, health, and sheer comraderie of the whole thing you’ll probably enjoy yourself. And you never know, it just might help you get faster. +++ Julie (just another snail on the trail)

Response:

To put it bluntly: should I enter a short-ish race (5k, 10k) when I am entirely sure that I will be last?  (Of non-disabled people who are actually running.  I suppose I might be a smidge faster than some walkers…)

  Sure, why not?  Someone has to be last, but regardless of where you finish you can enjoy the scenery and the race atmosphere.  The year I ran track, I finished last in some of our 2 mile races.  Still a good experience. Anyway, for the sake of argument, lets say I’m last, of the runners, by a long way.  Is it still fun?  Do any of those slow people look happy to you as you guys speed past them?  

  The guy, in the 10 mile race I did last year, who finished last was quite possibly the person who had the most fun.  Attitude is all.  If you enter with the notion of enjoying the run, the atmosphere, waving at the greyhounds who flash past (if there’s an out and back to the course), and seeing what you can do one a race, you should do fine.  Besides, you might discover that you don’t finish last anyhow.   — Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links. Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences

Response:

(meaning, thoughts about racing, and, oddly, the thoughts are also racing themselves…) To put it bluntly: should I enter a short-ish race (5k, 10k) when I am entirely sure that I will be last?  (Of non-disabled people who are actually running.  I suppose I might be a smidge faster than some walkers…) Now don’t even try telling me that I can’t be *that* slow, and I won’t be last, cause I know I will.  Just trust me on this.  I have devised a confirmation procedure, detailed below, if you don’t believe me. Anyway, for the sake of argument, lets say I’m last, of the runners, by a long way.  Is it still fun?  Do any of those slow people look happy to you as you guys speed past them?  I would like to try racing.  I think it would definetly be fun if I wasn’t so slow.  I wouldn’t feel so bad (I think) about being slow in a very long race, but the idea of a 5k disturbs me.  I could find easier ways to publicly embarrass myself I’m sure. [Confirmation Procedure:  First, we agree upon a trusted party "X" here, who you don't believe would lie.  Second, I hire a private investigator, to go dig up dirt on "X".  (If nothing can be found, I'll have to fabricate some. A time consuming process!)  Once I have embarrasing information, I can then tell "X" how long it actually takes me to run 3 miles.  "X" can then post "Yep, she'll sure be last." and you will know it's true.  And I can safely blackmail "X" with the evidence, ensuring my horrible secret will remain secret.  Now, you see this is long and complicated, and it would be a lot easier if you'd just believe me!] Laurel Amberdine

Response:

Laurel, If you want to try racing, go for it!  I just ran a 10K on Saturday, and overall the folks running a fairly regular pace and coming in toward the end looked like they were enjoying themselves a lot more than the folks farther up who were pushing themselves to the brink of exhaustion. In fact, I think the folks coming in toward the end got more support and cheering than those coming in earlier.  I think people who race realize that anyone out there is pushing themselves and deserves support. Remember, you’re still faster than the 90-some percent of people who aren’t out running at all. Racing has a number of positive effects for me, though I’ll probably never get a medal either overall or in my age group.  I enjoy the social aspect – seeing and getting a chance to talk to fellow runners, including some acquaintances who I didn’t know were runners and who are now closer friends because of our shared races.  Running my first race was confirmation to me that I was part of a larger community of runners, beyond the folks I usually run with.  It’s also given me another way to measure my improvement – my biggest competition is myself, and part of racing is to find ways to keep building on what I’ve done in the past. If you’re concerned about your time, you might want to choose a 5K – the times are generally less spread out in a shorter race.  You may also want to find a race that advertises that walkers are welcome – I really doubt you’d be last then.  But, it really doesn’t matter where you come in – the important thing is doing it. Go for it, and have fun! Paul — To put it bluntly: should I enter a short-ish race (5k, 10k) when I am entirely sure that I will be last?  (Of non-disabled people who are actually running.  I suppose I might be a smidge faster than some walkers…) … Anyway, for the sake of argument, lets say I’m last, of the runners, by a long way.  Is it still fun?  Do any of those slow people look happy to you as you guys speed past them?  I would like to try racing.  I think it would definetly be fun if I wasn’t so slow.  I wouldn’t feel so bad (I think) about being slow in a very long race, but the idea of a 5k disturbs me.  I could find easier ways to publicly embarrass myself I’m sure.

– *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *    * * University of Minnesota                                                  * *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Darn it…  Oh well, now that my secret is out I might as well cash in. * The Internet Usenet group alt.even.blue-green.bucks.are.good.con I just heard a rumor (found it on a.e.b-g.b.a.g.c.) that Dr. Chuck’s Pycomagic Seavegetable Extract (D.C.P.S.E.) has NOT been approved by the Canadian government for use in Canada.  Can anyone else confirm or deny this rumor?  I want to bring a few bottles with me to IMC, and I’m not sure if I can get it across the border without those, you know, "suspecting looks" from those evil Cannuckian border guards.  A friend of mine, the guy who supplies me with my extra-sticky tubular glue for use on hilly courses, has used DCPSE, and swears that it’s the BEST!  Anyway, any 4th hand info that you might have on those tough Canadian supplement laws would be appriaciated. Greg Pressler

I researched the import into Canada thing and found out that it has not been registered for sale in Canada. This means that you can’t import it to sell to others but you can import it yourself. Occasionally Canada Customs delays the shipment in order to get documentation from Dr. Chuck. As for me, I travel to the states frequently and just stock up when I am there. Dr. Chuck’s will UPS the stuff to hotels. I declare it to Customs and they never ask any questions. They want to see is the receipt so they can charge the tax. David Aggett

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Get real.  The internet and newsgroups are meant for anything goes.  Stop trying to establish arbitrary rules.  Have you ever heard of take what you want and leave the rest? trijunkie "Pain is temporary…Pride is permanent"

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Darn it…  Oh well, now that my secret is out I might as well cash in. Announcing: DR CHUCK’S PHYCOMAGIC SEAVEGETABLE EXTRACT!    Want faster swim splits?  Dr Chuck’s has been formulated by a world famous* professor of marine botany, triathlete, and swimmer.  Extracted from a secret mix of seaweeds collected in the cold, nutrient-rich waters of Antarctica and the warm, crystal-clear waters of the Gulf of Mexico, this magical potion will get you to T1 many minutes faster than before.  Just put two drops (three for ironman distance) on the top of your swim cap before the start.  Phycomagic (TM) slowly ablates off during the race and keeps you covered in a thin coating of hydrophobic molecules. Only US$49.95 per ml, this wonder extract can be purchased by Dr. Chuck suggests that his secret is now available to all, but, as he notes above, Phycomagic is a _mix_ of seaweeds collected from cold and warm locations, making it only an _average_ Hydrophobic Solution (TM). I have it on good authority* that he extracts and employs seaweed and algal material from _all_ of the bodies of water in which he competes, enjoying a highly specific advantage over all of us relegated to being no more than average swimmers. It’s high time for us to demand either that he make these available to all competitors or that USAT include them among the list of banned substances. * The Internet Usenet group alt.even.blue-green.bucks.are.good.con

I just heard a rumor (found it on a.e.b-g.b.a.g.c.) that Dr. Chuck’s Pycomagic Seavegetable Extract (D.C.P.S.E.) has NOT been approved by the Canadian government for use in Canada.  Can anyone else confirm or deny this rumor?  I want to bring a few bottles with me to IMC, and I’m not sure if I can get it across the border without those, you know, "suspecting looks" from those evil Cannuckian border guards.  A friend of mine, the guy who supplies me with my extra-sticky tubular glue for use on hilly courses, has used DCPSE, and swears that it’s the BEST!  Anyway, any 4th hand info that you might have on those tough Canadian supplement laws would be appriaciated. Greg Pressler

Response:

Wouldn’t it be easier to start a new group for advertisments from this section called rec.sport.triathlon.adds or something similar. I for one would much rather be able to just sift through subjects on triathlon not adds. Look at the percentage of adds V meaningful discussions. It has become a mini trading post!!! Just my 2 cents worth.

Response:

If we took out the ads for triathlon related items there would be nothing left in this newsgroup that had much to do at all with swimming, biking, or running.  I propose we rename this NG alt.bitch.moan.complain.worthlessdrivel – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Look at the percentage of adds V meaningful discussions. It has become a mini trading post!!! Just my 2 cents worth.

Response:

Keep the ads. I find them interesting. Indirectly it is a good way of telling what is "out" and what is "in". Also, it’s a good way to check up on the pros who are involving themselves in the "bad karma" business of selling old sponsors gear. Anyone for some used In Sport cycling shorts!! Steve Fleck

Response:

I’d suggest using your newsgroup filter to filter out all of the FS: messages, then you’ll never even see them again. Personally, I like reading them, and you don’t have to sift through all of the mountain bike messages like you do in rec.bicycles.marketplace to find tri stuff. I’m sure between all of us here we can show you how to use your newsgroup reader to do this. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wouldn’t it be easier to start a new group for advertisments from this section called rec.sport.triathlon.adds or something similar. I for one would much rather be able to just sift through subjects on triathlon not adds. Look at the percentage of adds V meaningful discussions. It has become a mini trading post!!! Just my 2 cents worth.

Response:

I have no problem with advertisements, as long as the header includes: "FS" or "AD" in its descriptor. I have picked up a couple good deals on ("Honey I really needed that..) stuff over the years. Augie Calabrese – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wouldn’t it be easier to start a new group for advertisments from this section called rec.sport.triathlon.adds or something similar. I for one would much rather be able to just sift through subjects on triathlon not adds. Look at the percentage of adds V meaningful discussions. It has become a mini trading post!!! Just my 2 cents worth.

Response:

I have gotten soem great deals on stuff I have bought or bartered in this newgroup.  Keep the FS! Emilio De Soto II Triathlete/President and Designer De Soto Sport Triathlon Clothing Email me for a free catalog

Response:

I have no problem with FS ads.  In fact, I kind of appreciate them.  I just sent Emilio an e-mail asking for his catalog. I’ve bought stuff posted on this and other newsgroups, and I got some really good deals.  I bought my last two bikes and lots of assorted parts and accessories off the newsgroups. I only read posts I’m interested in, and that goes for FS ads.  If I’m not interested in an ad, I skip over it.  It’s so simple, anyone could do it. –Jeff

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I have gotten soem great deals on stuff I have bought or bartered in this newgroup.  Keep the FS! Emilio De Soto II Triathlete/President and Designer De Soto Sport Triathlon Clothing Email me for a free catalog

Response:

Wouldn’t it be easier to start a new group for advertisments from this section called rec.sport.triathlon.adds or something similar. I for one would much rather be able to just sift through subjects on triathlon not adds. Look at the percentage of adds V meaningful discussions. It has become a mini trading post!!!

Personally I like the way it is handled on RST. It is sensible, well organized, and neat. Unlike many newsgroups. Long live RST, and long live our buddies the commercial supporters of RST. Death to the grazers of email addresses from RST. Rob — Rob Blomquist aka TriDog Seattle, WA http://www2.jps.net/~robbo

Response:

No problem here either…I think it adds a certain functionality to this newsgroup along with the discussion. As long as they prefix it with FS or AD.                           |26      | IMC’96: 10:36:37          |   Fe   |   ‘98 IMC, GCT, BSLT IMC’97: 10:42:53          |        |                  "THE BEST ELEMENT OF RACING"

Response:

Wouldn’t it be easier to start a new group for advertisments from this section called rec.sport.triathlon.adds or something similar.

No, it wouldn’t. Keep the ads.                Steve Fredericks                Oceanside, CA

Response:

Wouldn’t it be easier to start a new group for advertisments from this section called rec.sport.triathlon.adds or something similar.

obviously you see that you are in the minority.  but in your defense, this was widely and thoroughly discussed some years ago, maybe before your entry to this NG.   we did have a problem, and many people raised the point you now raise. the solution, everyone decided, was to have people who are selling things clearly state so in the thread title with AD or FS.  Then, anyone who didn’t want to read further would know not to proceed. qrman

Response:

I have gotten soem great deals on stuff I have bought or bartered in this newgroup.  Keep the FS! Emilio De Soto II

I dito this response, and add that it’s nice that most of the FS adds are always Tri-specific. Dan Herrema (Tri-buyer,seller and trader)

Response:

Wouldn’t it be easier to start a new group for advertisments from this section called rec.sport.triathlon.adds or something similar. obviously you see that you are in the minority.  but in your defense, this was widely and thoroughly discussed some years ago, maybe before your entry to this NG.   we did have a problem, and many people raised the point you now raise. the solution, everyone decided, was to have people who are selling things clearly state so in the thread title with AD or FS.  Then, anyone who didn’t want to read further would know not to proceed.

maybe Paul’s grouse is that he is being subjected to ads which should never have been circulated in his part of the world. It’s easy to ask someone to delete such posts, but an irrelevant post is annoying all the same, be it a call for ticklish guys or a FS : dumbbells.

Response:

I have gotten soem great deals on stuff I have bought or bartered in this newgroup.  Keep the FS! Emilio De Soto II I dito this response, and add that it’s nice that most of the FS adds are always Tri-specific. Dan Herrema (Tri-buyer,seller and trader)

Keep the FS. Militantly ban the sales of algae on RST! Or,  err…give it all to Jason, who lately sounds like he’s been ingesting quite a lot of it… Chaz

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maybe Paul’s grouse is that he is being subjected to ads which should never have been circulated in his part of the world. It’s easy to ask someone to delete such posts, but an irrelevant post is annoying all the same, be it a call for ticklish guys or a FS : dumbbells.

Yeah, but the calls for ticklish guys (I’m not) don’t get posted on the group very often, and then they are posted automatically, and having a rule agreed to by all of us would have no effect. The FS: Dumbbells is also extremely rare. Most posts are tri-specific, at least they appear to be from their headers. I don’t read them unless they identify something I might be interested in. I hope the original poster is not complaining about spam, which is a whole separate subject and which is universally reviled around here. Rick Denney Take what you want and leave the rest.

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Keep the FS. Militantly ban the sales of algae on RST! Or,  err…give it all to Jason, who lately sounds like he’s been ingesting quite a lot of it… Chaz

Ban the sales of algae? No way man! Didn’t you guys hear of this new secret weapon? Just smear the stuff over your wetsuit and zoom, you’re gone. The stuff is hydrophobic as hell! It’s also a woman attracter. Just smear the stuff on at night before a date, and she’ll find the green tinge irresistable. Not to mention the smell. That’s why Jason is a ladies man.  ;-)                           |26      | IMC’96: 10:36:37          |   Fe   |   ‘98 IMC, GCT, BSLT IMC’97: 10:42:53          |        |                  "THE BEST ELEMENT OF RACING"

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Maybe a vote.  Gentleman Dan and Studly Role Model ‘Milio certainly get Outstanding role models as businessmen (speaking strictly from a posture of businesswoman, of course) <wink  Lynne Sales in Dollars constitute vote

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Dammit, I knew I was doing something wrong… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Keep the FS. Militantly ban the sales of algae on RST! Or,  err…give it all to Jason, who lately sounds like he’s been ingesting quite a lot of it… Chaz Ban the sales of algae? No way man! Didn’t you guys hear of this new secret weapon? Just smear the stuff over your wetsuit and zoom, you’re gone. The stuff is hydrophobic as hell! It’s also a woman attracter. Just smear the stuff on at night before a date, and she’ll find the green tinge irresistable. Not to mention the smell. That’s why Jason is a ladies man.  ;-)                          |26      | IMC’96: 10:36:37          |   Fe   |   ‘98 IMC, GCT, BSLT IMC’97: 10:42:53          |        |                 "THE BEST ELEMENT OF RACING"

Rick Denney Take what you want and leave the rest.

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Keep the adds coming,   without them I might have to subscribe to "Triathlete Mag" and I seldom got a copy when I did. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wouldn’t it be easier to start a new group for advertisments from this section called rec.sport.triathlon.adds or something similar. I for one would much rather be able to just sift through subjects on triathlon not adds. Look at the percentage of adds V meaningful discussions. It has become a mini trading post!!! Just my 2 cents worth.

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Ban the sales of algae? No way man! Didn’t you guys hear of this new secret weapon? Just smear the stuff over your wetsuit and zoom, you’re gone. The stuff is hydrophobic as hell!

Darn it…  Oh well, now that my secret is out I might as well cash in. Announcing: DR CHUCK’S PHYCOMAGIC SEAVEGETABLE EXTRACT!    Want faster swim splits?  Dr Chuck’s has been formulated by a world famous* professor of marine botany, triathlete, and swimmer.  Extracted from a secret mix of seaweeds collected in the cold, nutrient-rich waters of Antarctica and the warm, crystal-clear waters of the Gulf of Mexico, this magical potion will get you to T1 many minutes faster than before.  Just put two drops (three for ironman distance) on the top of your swim cap before the start.  Phycomagic (TM) slowly ablates off during the race and keeps you covered in a thin coating of hydrophobic molecules. Only US$49.95 per ml, this wonder extract can be purchased by   * he knows people who live on several different continents It’s also a woman attracter. Just smear the stuff on at night before a date, and she’ll find the green tinge irresistable. Not to mention the smell. That’s why Jason is a ladies man.  ;-)

Announcing: DR CHUCK’S PHYCOMAGIC… well, maybe not…   — Chuck 8^) 8^)    Department of Biology,  University of Alabama at Birmingham             http://www.uab.edu/uabbio/amsler.htm

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ban the sales of algae? No way man! Didn’t you guys hear of this new secret weapon? Just smear the stuff over your wetsuit and zoom, you’re gone. The stuff is hydrophobic as hell! Darn it…  Oh well, now that my secret is out I might as well cash in. Announcing: DR CHUCK’S PHYCOMAGIC SEAVEGETABLE EXTRACT!    Want faster swim splits?  Dr Chuck’s has been formulated by a world famous* professor of marine botany, triathlete, and swimmer.  Extracted from a secret mix of seaweeds collected in the cold, nutrient-rich waters of Antarctica and the warm, crystal-clear waters of the Gulf of Mexico, this magical potion will get you to T1 many minutes faster than before.  Just put two drops (three for ironman distance) on the top of your swim cap before the start.  Phycomagic (TM) slowly ablates off during the race and keeps you covered in a thin coating of hydrophobic molecules. Only US$49.95 per ml, this wonder extract can be purchased by

Dr. Chuck suggests that his secret is now available to all, but, as he notes above, Phycomagic is a _mix_ of seaweeds collected from cold and warm locations, making it only an _average_ Hydrophobic Solution (TM). I have it on good authority* that he extracts and employs seaweed and algal material from _all_ of the bodies of water in which he competes, enjoying a highly specific advantage over all of us relegated to being no more than average swimmers. It’s high time for us to demand either that he make these available to all competitors or that USAT include them among the list of banned substances. * The Internet Usenet group alt.even.blue-green.bucks.are.good.con David

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Dr. Chuck suggests that his secret is now available to all, but, as he notes above, Phycomagic is a _mix_ of seaweeds collected from cold and warm locations, making it only an _average_ Hydrophobic Solution (TM). I have it on good authority* that he extracts and employs seaweed and algal material from _all_ of the bodies of water in which he competes, enjoying a highly specific advantage over all of us relegated to being no more than average swimmers.

Now, now, here.  Dr Chuck’s is constantly doing research to improve the quality of their Phycomagic (TM) extract products. True, we have been experimenting with a secret blend of extracted phytoplankton and periphyton from a variety of select lakes around the southeastern US. This must be where the info posted on a.e.b-g.b.a.g.c. came from but I assure you that this is all in the R&D field testing stage. David, surely you know that science takes time. We’ll release our line of DR CHUCK’S SUPERDUPER PHYCOMAGIC EXTRACTS for only US$79.95 per half-ml as soon as we have started field tests of something even better. It’s high time for us to demand either that he make these available to all competitors or that USAT include them among the list of banned substances.

We will be happy to provide USAT with samples of Phycomagic (TM) to test. I personally guarantee that if they test it they will discover that it does not violate any rule that USAT has about gaining unfair advantage. ;^)   — Chuck 8^)    Department of Biology,  University of Alabama at Birmingham             http://www.uab.edu/uabbio/amsler.htm

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Question:

I have been designated as the new keeper of the Triathlon FAQ from Larry Chapman. I will continue with the monthly postings, and will shortly have it up on my web page, (which I also will need to get up). I will post the URL within the next couple of days. — Tom Roehr       "The Javanator"

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I have been designated as the new keeper of the Triathlon FAQ from Larry Chapman. I will continue with the monthly postings, and will shortly have it up on my web page, (which I also will need to get up). I will post the URL within the next couple of days. — Tom Roehr       "The Javanator"

Tom– Many thanks for taking on this job.  I certainly appreciate it, and I’m sure everyone else does too.   A sad "Farewell" to Larry, along with hearty thanks for his years of service to our sport and to RST.  I’ll certainly miss his even-handed, cool-headed approach to issues discussed here.  Thanks for everything, Larry, and do check back in with us every now and again.  Good luck in all your future pursuits! Cheers– Tri-Baby                                      _                                   –    o      ’             –  __o       –    </_  `     ‘         –    <         – __/    /o_         – (()) (())        -  / "REAL Triathletes don’t draft!" http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~brooksie        

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I have been designated as the new keeper of the Triathlon FAQ from Larry Chapman. I will continue with the monthly postings, and will shortly have it up on my web page, (which I also will need to get up). I will post the URL within the next couple of days.

You are my new hero. QRman

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Question:

You know I never really new how nice runners were until just recently when I ran the Chicago Marathon.  I have been running the last 10 years and I just completed Chicago and Marine Corps Marathons.  While I was running Chicago with my brother, my older sister was at the 17 mile mark with my Dad to cheer us on. (It was my brother’s 1st).   Anyway, my sister came out to run with us on the road for about 1/4 of a mile and while she was doing so, her wallet which had her checkbook and $40.00 cash inside fell out on the road.  She didn’t notice it until she went back to her car.  Anyway, after the run we met at our parents home and she told us the story.  We had told her that it would be returned because it was probably be a runner who picked it up.  I knew runners were good people but I really didn’t expect to see her cash returned, ecspecially after dropping it in Chicago.  About 7 days go by and she gets a phone call from a runner who had picked it up, carried it to the finish line, and then tracked her down by the address on the checkbook to return everything. I am a believer know and thanks.. RSRC/Dave

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To add my $.02 worth, this page has got a nicer group of people because: 1.  For the most part, the majority of distance runners don’t have an ego except when they’re out in the heat of battle.  And even then, I’ve seen them urge on compatriots to do their best, keep it up, etc.–a unique attitude in today’s sporting world.   While the sport of running causes a lot of natural chemical changes in a runner, most runners typically come with a more open mind to things than most others do.  There have been numerous studies on this in athletic journals, studies on runners, etc.  Dr. Sheehan quoted studies on physical makeup that pointed towards these tendencies in his books.   And most of us probably experience this at work–we’re more relaxed and mellow than our non-endurance counterparts. 2.  The rec.weights pages is probably the most brutal exercise group out there compared to this page, for several reasons.  In my opinion, too many people get into lifting to fill some perceived personal void–height, money, being "too skinny", etc.!   Take that group and give it an open forum–whew!  And thats not to say all lifters  bring that attitude.  But there seem to be a large number that do.  Steroids and naturally increased levels of male hormone via weight lifting also lead to that tendency.  I never used any of those drugs, but I do know I became much more agressive when I used to lift seriously because of the body increasing the output of male hormone. Even the triathlete page seems to be have a few more flamers out there than expected, but what the heck–8 hours of swimming, biking, and running would make me grumpy, too!  Probably worse since I don’t swim very well!   Parker

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Of course we are nicer.  It is all that good brain chemical stuff floating around up there…. Hey, why don’t you post your finished paper?  I’d like to read it.  Or email it to me.

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I would be interested to hear any comments as to WHY this is the case.  Is it that runners are nicer/more friendly people, or is there some other reason for it?

Well, in the case of misc.fitness.weights, I would say STEROIDS may have something to do with it!! Trish

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Hey,    I’d like to thank everyone that answered my question on why you run.  I had an overwhelming response.  Where else bu tin a runner’s forum can you find people that nice?  It all helped greatly.                                                  Joe C.

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Hey,   I’d like to thank everyone that answered my question on why you run.  I had an overwhelming response.  Where else bu tin a runner’s forum can you find people that nice?  It all helped greatly.

I have noticed that the people in this news group are much nicer and more civil than many other sports news groups.  I won’t name them because I don’t want to start a flame war; but, there are a couple of popular exercise/sports related groups that are absolutely brutal. I would be interested to hear any comments as to WHY this is the case.  Is it that runners are nicer/more friendly people, or is there some other reason for it? Actually, I think the other (brutal) news groups are that way mainly due to a small minority of particularly unfriendly/predjuced/hate filled people. This is one of my pet peeves so I could elaborate but I won’t … just curious what other people think. Doug Gilliam – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –                                                 Joe C.

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I have noticed that the people in this news group are much nicer and more civil than many other sports news groups.  I won’t name them because I don’t want to start a flame war; but, there are a couple of popular exercise/sports related groups that are absolutely brutal. I would be interested to hear any comments as to WHY this is the case.  Is it that runners are nicer/more friendly people, or is there some other reason for it?

Here’s my take on some of the groups I subscribe to. If anyone cares what I think… rec.scuba: lots of questions on destinations, some equipment and techniques, and ads often result in minor flaming. Sometimes humorous. rec.running: lots of questions on training, upcoming races, and some equipment, some unsolicited ads, few flame wars. Most people have reasonable knowledge of training methods. rec.bicycles.racing: few questions on training, some equipment, and lots of discussion about pro cycling races, some unsolicited ads, some flame wars. Most people have good knowledge of training methods. misc.fitness.weights: lots of questions on training schedules and techniques, lots on nutrition, supplements, and steroids. Every day there are unsolicited ads for products of questionable value, which are usually met with merciless flaming, and there are some heated flame wars. But, it’s a group that has intentially humerous posts on a regular basis. Some people are clueless about training methods, but some are extremely knowledgeable, and often site scientific references. YMMV. -Warren

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Question:

Living in a small town I don’t have easy access to stores with a zillion models of running watches (no, not watches that run, but watches to time runners).  I have heard that there are watches that can keep track of lap splits on two different runners to a total of 20 or 30 splits.  I have seen (on someone’s arm) a watch that will take 30 splits for one runner.  It would preferably be more than a little water resistant, be convenient to use (ie user-friendly, not requiring the transport of the manual to remember simple functions like how to turn off the alarm) and not be too bulky. Any suggestions?  Also, suggestions about where to order something like this? Don

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Living in a small town I don’t have easy access to stores with a zillion models of running watches (no, not watches that run, but watches to time runners).  I have heard that there are watches that can keep track of lap splits on two different runners to a total of 20 or 30 splits.  I have seen (on someone’s arm) a watch that will take 30 splits for one runner.  It would preferably be more than a little water resistant, be convenient to use (ie user-friendly, not requiring the transport of the manual to remember simple functions like how to turn off the alarm) and not be too bulky. Any suggestions?  Also, suggestions about where to order something like this?

Well, MY personal favorite is a Casio. It has a 30 lap memory (or 29 different runs), a countdown, alarm, etc. But one of the rather unique feature is its ability to be programmed to beep every time you hit a mile mark (or complete a lap, or whatever). Say you want to run five miles in 30:00, and you want to run consistently at 6:00 miles. You can have it beep at 6:00, 12:00, 18:00, etc. When you actually get to the mile mark, you hit one of the buttons, and you can see how close (or how far) you were to the prescribed pace. The nice thing is that you can program the first mile at 6:00, the second at 12:25, etc. They don’t have to be even splits. Here’s the catch…I am not 100% sure of the model number. I think, based on the back of the watch, it’s SDB-500W. By the way its water proff, too. You can swim with it on. By the looks of your address, you’re at Oregon State University? In that case you can get the watch at a Fred Meyer. I got mine at Best for $35.00 or so. I think it’s the only 30 lap watch Casio makes, so there shouldn’t be any confusion. I can’t give a very good rating of the manual because I’ve been using the watch, or it’s predecessor, for 6-7 years. I know how to work the thing, but that’s not real helpful to you Good Luck! John King

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Here’s another vote for the Casio SDB 500W (that is the model number).  I like it much better than the Timex Triathalon because you only have to hit the split button once per split and it keeps track of the date of each run you time.  I got a Lorus something with a 30 lap memory and hated the button placement and the method for keeping splits.  I don’t think it kept the date with each run either. I had a hell of a time finding one last fall, but it has since shown up at Bradlees and other stores.  Best price I saw for one was in San Diego CA at a place possibly called "The Price Club"?  or something.  It was a place you had to have a membership to go in – kinda’ like B.J. Wholesale in Syracuse NY.  I think it was around $30 or so and they had neon pink and bright orange!

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: Living in a small town I don’t have easy access to stores with a zillion : models of running watches (no, not watches that run, but watches to time : runners).  I have heard that there are watches that can keep track of lap : splits on two different runners to a total of 20 or 30 splits.  I have seen : (on someone’s arm) a watch that will take 30 splits for one runner.  It : would preferably be more than a little water resistant, be convenient to : use (ie user-friendly, not requiring the transport of the manual to remember : simple functions like how to turn off the alarm) and not be too bulky. Any : suggestions?  Also, suggestions about where to order something like this? : Don The wrist watch you’re looking for is probably the CASIO LAP MEMORY 30. It can store up to 30 lap/splits timing, and it is 100M water resistant. Beside these, it has 100 hour stop watch to 1/100 sec., 10 target times with alarm, lap counter, 100 hour countdown alarm, daily alarm and microlight. I own one myself for more than a year, and I am very happy with it. I make use of the programmable target time with alarm to do my speed training and tempo run. I also use it when I cross-train in the pool (swimming). The model I have is 863 SDB-500W. It comes in black and fluorescent color. To order it in USA, I have this piece of info:                 Check/M.O./VISA/MC to KIRE TIME                 P.O. Box 2428, Walla Walla                 WA 99362                 TEL: 509-522-0478                 FAX: 509-529-0804 The price I have here is US$36 plus US$2.50 shipping per watch. But please don’t quote me. (additional 7.8% tax for non Washington State resident.) Hope it helps Eng-Huat Ong

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I own a CITIZEN jogging watch which is very good. I’m not sure on the model number (it’s not written on the watch) but it’s one of their "Shock Sensor" models meaning to start the stop watch, get split times and stop the clock can all be done by slapping the watch. This is a lot easier than searching for the right button while running. It stores up to 100 split times, has lap features (I never use them so can’t remember the exact details), is water proof to 300m, has dual alarms, has a count down timer and comes in various colours. My model is about 3 years old and still working fine. I use it regularly for running and scuba diving! The cost in Australia was around $150. Wayne Network Manager                             Phone:      (08) 259 7051 Information Technology Division     __o       D E P A R T M E N T   O F   D E F E N C E  (*)/ (*)     DEFENCE SCIENCE & TECHNOLOGY ORGANISATION

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