Question:

For years I used clip on Aero Bars with regular shifters and brakes.  The theory was that how often do you have to shift or break anyway?  I finally moved to the bar end shifters on the end of the aerobars when I got some Angel bars.  The result is that I tend to shift more since it is easier.  I don’t know if it is faster but it is sure a lot more convenient. By the way the Bar end shifters were a real bitch to put on the angel bars. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So much of this triathlon stuff is trial and error, and since I’ve now done 3 triathlons, I know a boatload more than I did when I started–for instance:   you can be the fastest swimmer of them all, but you won’t come out of the water first if you swim 400 meters off course–yep, learned that one the hard way. Of the 3 parts of the triathlon, the swim and the bike seem pretty much straightforward to me–there’s not much in the way of equipment to confuse me as to how the other athletes are beating me.   But, on the issue of the bike, I am not convinced it’s all about fitness.   So, with that background, I would greatly appreciate "veteran" advice on the advantages of the following biking parts: 1.  clip-on bike pedals/shoes vs. strapping tennis shoe to pedal 2.  gear shifters on aero-bar vs. bull horn 3.  HED vs. Spinnergy vs. "double-spoked technology"–does that stuff REALLY make a difference outside of the wind tunnel? 4.  tri- frame geometry vs. road bike I have done 2 sprint triathlons and 1 Olympic size triathlon–I do better the longer the race.   I rode my 600 dollar bike against the latest equipped bikes out there, and I was 2 minutes behind the fastest cyclist.   He did promptly get off his bike and run like a scared rabbit whilst I battlted thunder-thighs for 6 miles–was that the bike? You guys are always so helpful…I have money burning a hole in my pocket over a new bike, but I like to think I have common sense enough to recognize when I’m infatuated–please help me clear my thinking on this bike stuff. Thanks. David

Response:

1.  clip-on bike pedals/shoes vs. strapping tennis shoe to pedal

Definitely clipless pedals for all the reasons stated in the previous post. 2.  gear shifters on aero-bar vs. bull horn

I say go with STI (brake lever) shifters. This goes against what a lot of people feel. If you do all of your riding alone, on flat courses, maybe bar-end shifters are right for you. If you’re like the rest of us you sometimes do (or will) ride with others in a group or you ride hills. With STI shifters you can shift without changing position. I’ve used both and it’s much easier to shift with STI while you’re in the aero position than it is to take your hand off the bars and reach for the bar-end shifters while your struggling up a hill or riding with a group. STI gives you more control over your bike. I think most triathletes just think of bar-end shifters as going hand in hand with tri-bikes. If you can, ride a bike with each system and see which one you like. The best shifters are the ones you feel most comfortable with. 3.  HED vs. Spinnergy vs. "double-spoked technology"–does that stuff REALLY make a difference outside of the wind tunnel?

Race wheels do make a difference. The faster you are the bigger the advantage. Still, I would wait until you have a couple seasons under your belt before buying them. He did promptly get off his bike and run like a scared rabbit whilst I battlted thunder-thighs for 6 miles–was that the bike?

No, that was probably lack of brick training. You should periodically do a bike ride followed by a 3 or 4 mile run to get your legs accustomed to running while fatigued from biking. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Of the 3 parts of the triathlon, the swim and the bike seem pretty much straightforward to me–there’s not much in the way of equipment to confuse me as to how the other athletes are beating me.   But, on the issue of the bike, I am not convinced it’s all about fitness.   So, with that background, I would greatly appreciate "veteran" advice on the advantages of the following biking parts:

If your bicycle is adequate – which it seems to be – it’s unlikely that you’ll see much measurable improvement from a new one.  There’s nothing wrong with a new bike if you can afford it and will use it.  Just don’t expect a magic carpet. 1.  clip-on bike pedals/shoes vs. strapping tennis shoe to pedal

No contest here.  Clipless pedals (Look, Speedplay, etc.) are far better than soft soled shoes and toe straps.  The stiff soled shoes keep your feet from flexing and bending.  This causes less foot pain and better power transfer. Having your feet locked to the pedals makes for a more efficient stroke. Clipless pedals are much easier to manage than a strap that you have to tighten and loosen, especially during training. 2.  gear shifters on aero-bar vs. bull horn

My setup has evolved to bar end shifters on Syntace C2s and cowhorns.  I’m extremely pleased with it for a racing setup.  Many triathletes stick with their STI shifters even when they’re using cow horns.  My setup is easier to shift from the aero position. The other setup requires you to move your hands down to the drops in order to shift.  I prefer not to move my hands around when I’m on the aero bars. 3.  HED vs. Spinnergy vs. "double-spoked technology"–does that stuff REALLY make a difference outside of the wind tunnel?

Aero wheels are supposedly one of the most productive bike upgrades.  I settled on HED3s but I really can’t see a measurable improvement given the conditions where I’ve used them.  The only way to know for sure would be to  find a suitable stretch of road to do a few time trials where I could switch wheels and compare times.  Until I get the ambition to do that, it’s just another leap of faith. 4.  tri- frame geometry vs. road bike

Another tough question.  It’s accepted that aero bars provide a significant advantage, especially on a flat course.  Seat angle theories and preferences vary.  John Cobb’s recent "Big Slam" position returns to road bike geometry with shorter aero bars.  The most important aspect is to get the proper fit.  Aside from that it’s a matter of going through the evaluations and opinions to find the ones most agreeable to you. I have done 2 sprint triathlons and 1 Olympic size triathlon–I do better the longer the race.   I rode my 600 dollar bike against the latest equipped bikes out there, and I was 2 minutes behind the fastest cyclist.   He did promptly get off his bike and run like a scared rabbit whilst I battlted thunder-thighs for 6 miles–was that the bike? You guys are always so helpful…I have money burning a hole in my pocket over a new bike, but I like to think I have common sense enough to recognize when I’m infatuated–please help me clear my thinking on this bike stuff.

There are worse places to spend your money.  If having good equipment makes you feel good, then maybe you’ll train and race a little better. Larry

Response:

I’m infatuated–please help me clear my thinking on this bike stuff.

Can’t add much to what has already been said. It feels really cool to have a brand new bike but  remember that bicycles suffer from the law of diminishing returns – the more you spend, the less is the return. It’s mostly the engine that counts. I’ve seen people on old clunkers win their age group. In one race I passed  a brand new Cervelo P2K while riding my old 12 sp. road bike but at the same race was passed (blush) by a  mountain bike fitted with road tires.  IMO I would stick to a road bike until you start to think about half or IM distances. If you can afford only one bike right now stick with a road bike as it is far more versatile. Even the pros spend most of their training time on road bikes. Fit your current $600. road bike with a front aero wheel and a pair of "big slam" aero http://www.bicyclesports.com/accessories/aerobars/slambars.html  bars and you’ve got a bike that will do 98% what anything else will do.

Response:

Approx $120 for clip on aero bars and increase your avg speed by around 2 mph. Clipless pedals (I prefer Look), makes for more efficient transfer of power from your muscles to the bike. A more expensive frame (with a carbon fibre fork) will probably be lighter and that translates to speed. Good luck – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So much of this triathlon stuff is trial and error, and since I’ve now done 3 triathlons, I know a boatload more than I did when I started–for instance:   you can be the fastest swimmer of them all, but you won’t come out of the water first if you swim 400 meters off course–yep, learned that one the hard way. Of the 3 parts of the triathlon, the swim and the bike seem pretty much straightforward to me–there’s not much in the way of equipment to confuse me as to how the other athletes are beating me.   But, on the issue of the bike, I am not convinced it’s all about fitness.   So, with that background, I would greatly appreciate "veteran" advice on the advantages of the following biking parts: 1.  clip-on bike pedals/shoes vs. strapping tennis shoe to pedal 2.  gear shifters on aero-bar vs. bull horn 3.  HED vs. Spinnergy vs. "double-spoked technology"–does that stuff REALLY make a difference outside of the wind tunnel? 4.  tri- frame geometry vs. road bike I have done 2 sprint triathlons and 1 Olympic size triathlon–I do better the longer the race.   I rode my 600 dollar bike against the latest equipped bikes out there, and I was 2 minutes behind the fastest cyclist.   He did promptly get off his bike and run like a scared rabbit whilst I battlted thunder-thighs for 6 miles–was that the bike? You guys are always so helpful…I have money burning a hole in my pocket over a new bike, but I like to think I have common sense enough to recognize when I’m infatuated–please help me clear my thinking on this bike stuff. Thanks. David

Response:

If you don’t mind one more opinion… I’ve ridden a lot of road miles and it’s the engine not the chasis. With that being said, I believe clipless pedals are a necessity. Recently I went to a QR Tequila. This is the first time I’ve ridden with anything but Dura Ace and IMO, the Shimano 105 is VERY acceptable. Also, the aero bars were a new experience and now, like the clipless pedals, I believe they are a necessity. A couple of years ago, I did my first sprint tri and posted the question, "Why do triathletes use such big gears?". I got some smart and some smart ass answers but now I know. The body position allows greater leverage so it’s easier to push the big gears. You’ll have to decide for yourself if there’s a penalty for this on the run. I picked up a 2001 QR Tequila for $1,030 which included delivery. Works for me… but some people like Fords, some people like Chevy’s and some… well, you get the point. Enjoy! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So much of this triathlon stuff is trial and error, and since I’ve now done 3 triathlons, I know a boatload more than I did when I started–for instance:   you can be the fastest swimmer of them all, but you won’t come out of the water first if you swim 400 meters off course–yep, learned that one the hard way. Of the 3 parts of the triathlon, the swim and the bike seem pretty much straightforward to me–there’s not much in the way of equipment to confuse me as to how the other athletes are beating me.   But, on the issue of the bike, I am not convinced it’s all about fitness.   So, with that background, I would greatly appreciate "veteran" advice on the advantages of the following biking parts: 1.  clip-on bike pedals/shoes vs. strapping tennis shoe to pedal 2.  gear shifters on aero-bar vs. bull horn 3.  HED vs. Spinnergy vs. "double-spoked technology"–does that stuff REALLY make a difference outside of the wind tunnel? 4.  tri- frame geometry vs. road bike I have done 2 sprint triathlons and 1 Olympic size triathlon–I do better the longer the race.   I rode my 600 dollar bike against the latest equipped bikes out there, and I was 2 minutes behind the fastest cyclist.   He did promptly get off his bike and run like a scared rabbit whilst I battlted thunder-thighs for 6 miles–was that the bike? You guys are always so helpful…I have money burning a hole in my pocket over a new bike, but I like to think I have common sense enough to recognize when I’m infatuated–please help me clear my thinking on this bike stuff. Thanks. David

Response:

A more expensive frame (with a carbon fibre fork) will probably be lighter and that translates to speed.

Actually, aerodynamics is much more important. Studies have demonstrated that bike weight is relatively unimportant accept upon ascending hills, such as if running the Alps section in the Tour de France, etc. . On a two to one ratio in importance the weight of drive train/wheels is is more significant than the non rotating bike parts such as the frame and even that isn’t all that big a deal. Also, it’s the combined weight of the rider and bike. Generally it’s easier to lose a few lbs. off the rider than the bike!! Spending an extra grand for a frame that is a lb. or two lighter is a very expensive purchase for what is really gained.

Response:

I do better the longer the race.   I rode my 600 dollar bike against the latest equipped bikes out there, and I was 2 minutes behind the fastest cyclist.   He did promptly get off his bike and run like a scared rabbit whilst I battlted thunder-thighs for 6 miles–was that the bike?

See if you can test ride a Tri bike and use it in a brick.  I find a forward position helps me feel more ready for a run.  Sound like you are competitive and an aero frame and aero wheels combined with some more bricks could close that "2 minutes" pretty quickly.  You got money burning a hole, what better way to spend it then on bike stuff IMO.  And yes on clipless and bar end shifters. I don’t think bullhorns will make much of a diffence though. Tim buaidh no bas

Response:

I am considering spending a lot of money to buy some Zipp wheels.   After your comment I am wondering if this is wise.  Do you think the benefit from upgrading wheels is worth the cash? Thanks in advance…

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A more expensive frame (with a carbon fibre fork) will probably be lighter and that translates to speed. Actually, aerodynamics is much more important. Studies have demonstrated that bike weight is relatively unimportant accept upon ascending hills, such as if running the Alps section in the Tour de France, etc. . On a two to one ratio in importance the weight of drive train/wheels is is more significant than the non rotating bike parts such as the frame and even that isn’t all that big a deal. Also, it’s the combined weight of the rider and bike. Generally it’s easier to lose a few lbs. off the rider than the bike!! Spending an extra grand for a frame that is a lb. or two lighter is a very expensive purchase for what is really gained.

Response:

I am considering spending a lot of money to buy some Zipp wheels.   After your comment I am wondering if this is wise.  Do you think the benefit from upgrading wheels is worth the cash?

Everything I have read indicates that aerobars and aerowheels are the two biggest improvements that can be made to a bike and are highly recommended. Zipp wheels are considered very good. I picked up a decent set of aero wheels off ebay second hand for a very low price, but I’m one of those cheapo types that hardly ever buys anything new because of the depreciation factor. I even bought my aerobars secondhand! As I mentioned previously, bikes suffer from the law of diminishing returns. That last tiny little bit costs a lot of extra money.  It really boils down to how much money you want to spend.

Response:

I’m not a veteran, but I’ve done a lot of reading and I can pass along what I’ve learned. =) 1.  clip-on bike pedals/shoes vs. strapping tennis shoe to pedal

Clipless pedals and cycling shoes allow you to transfer more energy to the cranks (well, actually it stops you from wasting energy… but anyways.) Cycling shoes have a stiff sole and transfers all the weight in your foot to the pedal (this is where the clipless pedal comes in), thus eliminating the wasted energy from when your heel sinks downward. Even if you use toe straps, your sole still flexes when you pedal down (especially when you stand) and you tend to lose some energy that would otherwise go to moving you forward. 2.  gear shifters on aero-bar vs. bull horn

You bought aerobars to become more aerodynamic and to waste less energy against drag, right? Well, unless you live/race in a rather hilly area, you stay in the aero position more often by putting your shifters on the aerobars. The bull horns are less aerodynamic, so for the moments that you move out of the aerobars to shift, you use more energy to overcome the extra drag. 3.  HED vs. Spinnergy vs. "double-spoked technology"–does that stuff REALLY make a difference outside of the wind tunnel?

I possess no knowledge of this. =) 4.  tri- frame geometry vs. road bike

A tri bike has a steeper seat tube angle, thus positioning you over the cranks. This forces you to use your quads to pedal more than you use your hams. Also, the steeper angle allows you to get a more aerodynamic position on the aerobars. However, some people prefer a road bike over a tri bike. Hope I helped. –Vincent

Response:

So much of this triathlon stuff is trial and error, and since I’ve now done 3 triathlons, I know a boatload more than I did when I started–for instance:   you can be the fastest swimmer of them all, but you won’t come out of the water first if you swim 400 meters off course–yep, learned that one the hard way. Of the 3 parts of the triathlon, the swim and the bike seem pretty much straightforward to me–there’s not much in the way of equipment to confuse me as to how the other athletes are beating me.   But, on the issue of the bike, I am not convinced it’s all about fitness.   So, with that background, I would greatly appreciate "veteran" advice on the advantages of the following biking parts: 1.  clip-on bike pedals/shoes vs. strapping tennis shoe to pedal 2.  gear shifters on aero-bar vs. bull horn 3.  HED vs. Spinnergy vs. "double-spoked technology"–does that stuff REALLY make a difference outside of the wind tunnel? 4.  tri- frame geometry vs. road bike I have done 2 sprint triathlons and 1 Olympic size triathlon–I do better the longer the race.   I rode my 600 dollar bike against the latest equipped bikes out there, and I was 2 minutes behind the fastest cyclist.   He did promptly get off his bike and run like a scared rabbit whilst I battlted thunder-thighs for 6 miles–was that the bike? You guys are always so helpful…I have money burning a hole in my pocket over a new bike, but I like to think I have common sense enough to recognize when I’m infatuated–please help me clear my thinking on this bike stuff. Thanks. David

Response:

Question:

And there you have it – her performance ultimately suffered because of the swimming deficiency of HER OPPONENTS. What kind of sport is it when the failure of one’s opponents to perform works against one? The Tour de France kind of sport, where Lance Armstrong waited for his arch rival to gather himself from a severe fall and catch up because Armstrong needed the cooperation of his equal – his opponent – to support his winning race.

If you thought Lance was waiting for him because he needed his help, you weren’t watching the same race I was. Lance waited for him: (a) To make sure his victory wasn’t "tainted" by picking a bunch of time while Ulrich was in the ditch. (b) To psychologically crush him. They were in the mountains when it happened. I don’t think Lance needs *ANYONE’S* help in the mountains. -Harold

Response:

And there you have it – her performance ultimately suffered because of the swimming deficiency of HER OPPONENTS. What kind of sport is it when the failure of one’s opponents to perform works against one?

The Tour de France kind of sport, where Lance Armstrong waited for his arch rival to gather himself from a severe fall and catch up because Armstrong needed the cooperation of his equal – his opponent – to support his winning race. The TdF, like Olympic triathlon, is a team sport.  There are other types of triathlon, including relay, and there will be many more, no doubt.  I enjoy one type, but I’m not going to be so reactionary that I can’t appreciate any other. Ruth Kazez

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Now, however, the swim really COUNTS.  It isn’t definitive, but it does provide real opportunity . . . and if you and a couple of other fast swimmers can learn to really haul on the bike, you actually have a chance to hit the podium.  Success is not guaranteed – but at least it is now a reasonable possibility.  Pre-draft-legal, it wasn’t. I agree. But I think it’s the fact that your success depends on other people, not on your own abilities, that offends the sensibilities of a lot of people. For example, maybe I win the race provided there are 3 other good swimmers in the race who I can use to draft with in the bike portion, but I lose the race if they don’t show up because I’m biking alone until the peloton catches me. If I’m the fastest person in a set of 30 people, shouldn’t I be the fastest person in any proper subset of those people that includes me? It seems that if you favor draft-legal triathlon, your answer is "No, you shouldn’t be." But in *most* other racing sports (cycling being an obvious exception), the answer is yes. I think that’s what people have a problenm with.

I believe you have correctly identified the root cause of discontent hereabouts . . . but the issue isn’t nearly as cut and dried as one might expect.  You identify bike racing as an exception to a world of primarily "individual sports" – but what about Olympic team sports like basketball and soccer?  Team competition in gymnastics?  The 4 x 100 relay in athletics – or in swimming?  The pairs competition in figure skating?  Almost all of the rowing and kayaking events?  Fact is that "others-dependent" sports are a thriving part of our universe, and we find much to appreciate in each genre. Two other notes.  First, there are all sorts of compelling practical considerations for making ITU-style triathlon into a draft-legal sport. Most people forget that the ITU tried the no-draft format for the first six years of its existence – problem was, it just didn’t work (in large part because every big race had 75 men who could swim the 1500 meters within 90 seconds of each other).  The ITU didn’t change the rules because it favored the format in some abstract way – remember, the no-draft rule is still in effect for the world age group championships.  It changed because it had no real alternative. Secondly, the "pure" version of triathlon, so ardently defended on this site, is not really all that "pure".  For example, in all mass start races (which comprise 99 and 44/100’s % of the triathlons on planet earth), we allow drafting in the swim.  Is drafting in the swim somehow a "pure" form of drafting, while drafting on the bike is not?  Nah.  The reason is pure expediency – absent going to a time trial start, there is no real way to ENFORCE the no-drafting rule during the swim.  Most contributors to rst accept this anomaly with a shrug . . . but seem totally unable to understand that the no-drafting-on-the-bike rule has similar enforcement problems in events involving international elite fields.  The level of competition is just too darn close.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In the women’s race, I was surprised to see that the swim was the deciding factor despite (or because of) the race being draft-legal. A pack of four swimmers got a healthy lead in the swim and then worked together on the bike. The breakaway group of 4 was able to extend their lead on the peloton of 7, and the top 3 finishers (and 4 of the top 5) were from that lead group of swimmers. I still don’t like draft legal, but at least it doesn’t completely de-value the swim. Actually, draft legal (as it is currently raced) for the most part negates the bike.  Triathletes in general have no idea about how to ride in a pack. For instance in the coverage of the Goodwill Games I saw an American (sorry didn’t catch her name) pulling most of the time, while two other Americans sat in behind her.  Now if one of those other Americans had been a super strong runner then it would have made sense for her teamates to protect her, but as it turns out the one doing the pulling was the strongest runner of the bunch and actually caught 4th place. "Negates the bike", eh?  Let’s see:  the four leaders had 22 seconds at the end of the swim and 3:50 after the bike.  Boy, I’ll bet the seven women in the first chase pack are glad the bike doesn’t mean anything in ITU-style racing. Why was Siri Lindley doing much of the pulling in the first chase pack? Well, maybe because she saw the medals disappearing up the road, hoped to limit the time gap, and found that no one else in the chase pack was strong enough to help.  Someone should have told her that the bike doesn’t matter. Lew

It’s entirely possible that Siri Lindley had a much better chance of catching the bikes in front of her IF they were riding independently and not drafting.  No matter how strong she was, the bike did not matter because catching a drafting group is tough enough without having to run afterwards. Her race was over and she new it.  Being a competitor she chased in vain, unfortunately, in the end it simply did not matter.  The bike portion of a draft legal race is not a likely prospect where one can make up time on a moving train and still have descent legs to run afterwards. Rick

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And there you have it – her performance ultimately suffered because of the swimming deficiency of HER OPPONENTS. What kind of sport is it when the failure of one’s opponents to perform works against one? The Tour de France kind of sport, where Lance Armstrong waited for his arch rival to gather himself from a severe fall and catch up because Armstrong needed the cooperation of his equal – his opponent – to support his winning race. The TdF, like Olympic triathlon, is a team sport.  There are other types of triathlon, including relay, and there will be many more, no doubt.  I enjoy one type, but I’m not going to be so reactionary that I can’t appreciate any other. Ruth Kazez

And of course, there are others.  Short track speed skating.  All but a couple cycling events.  Any form of motor car racing.

Response:

I agree. But I think it’s the fact that your success depends on other people, not on your own abilities, that offends the sensibilities of a lot of people.

Harold gets it, while Lew sits scratching his head. For example, maybe I win the race provided there are 3 other good swimmers in the race who I can use to draft with in the bike portion, but I lose the race if they don’t show up because I’m biking alone until the peloton catches me. If I’m the fastest person in a set of 30 people, shouldn’t I be the fastest person in any proper subset of those people that includes me?

And he illustrates it so well. Who else shows up should not be a factor.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It’s entirely possible that Siri Lindley had a much better chance of catching the bikes in front of her IF they were riding independently and not drafting.  No matter how strong she was, the bike did not matter because catching a drafting group is tough enough without having to run afterwards. Her race was over and she new it.  Being a competitor she chased in vain, unfortunately, in the end it simply did not matter.  The bike portion of a draft legal race is not a likely prospect where one can make up time on a moving train and still have descent legs to run afterwards. Rick There were seven in Siri’s pack, to four in the lead group.  Tell me again why it is drafting only works for the lead group?

    Those seven were either not cooperating or strong enough to catch the group of four.  Pace lines take a group effort which is one of the biggest arguments against drafting.  And if that is so, how did Siri win 2001 worlds?  She sure didn’t start out in the lead pack in the latter race.

    Exceptions can certainly happen, however, the draft legal concept prevents a really fast biker from taking the initiative to lead or catch-up, unless they are in a desperate situation.  Hence, the bike does not matter as much because you must rely on cooperating competitors, kind of an oxymoron.  Siri just happened to find herself among some cooperating cyclist that enabled her to best use her talents.   Hence, the bike does not matter as much.  Even a fast swimmer does not want to be too fast, remember the Women’s Olympic race? Rick

Response:

  Even a fast swimmer does not want to be too fast, remember the Women’s Olympic race? Rick

Actually, Sheila did not need to slow down in the Olympic swim.  She just needed one or two others who could have held her toes.  If they had, the result might have been much different (but then again, if I’d have drawn the fifth heart, I might have been rich).

Response:

 Even a fast swimmer does not want to be too fast, remember the Women’s Olympic race? Rick Actually, Sheila did not need to slow down in the Olympic swim.  She just needed one or two others who could have held her toes.  If they had, the result might have been much different (but then again, if I’d have drawn the fifth heart, I might have been rich).

If you can’t win any money doing triathlons with four hearts, when most of us have to get by with one, then I don’t think the fifth heart is going to make much difference. -Harold

Response:

I didn’t catch most of these races so I am not going to comment too much, but it appears to me that with the current state of pack riding abilities the swim has become more important at the expense of the bike.

The swim HAS become important, which is interesting from two standpoints. First, it is contrary to the expressed point of view from the majority of contributors to this site, who maintain (in the face of all evidence) that draft-legal racing is nothing more than a run after taking a shower and doing a leisurely warmup on the bike.  The flat-earth society again. Second, it is a definitive change from the state of the sport before draft-legal racing, where the swim meant almost nothing at all.  Quick: name more than two big non-drafting races (in the history of the sport) that were won by the best swimmer in the race.  Or even the second-best swimmer. Joanne Ritchie qualifies with her win at worlds in 1991 (second out of the water, killed the field on the bike) and Richard Wells came close a couple of times . . . but it was pretty darn rare. Now, however, the swim really COUNTS.  It isn’t definitive, but it does provide real opportunity . . . and if you and a couple of other fast swimmers can learn to really haul on the bike, you actually have a chance to hit the podium.  Success is not guaranteed – but at least it is now a reasonable possibility.  Pre-draft-legal, it wasn’t.

Response:

Let’s see.  If Siri’s pack catches the four leaders, Brian hates the format because it is "nothing but a run".  If Siri’s pack gets hammered on the bike, Brian hates the format because it really ISN’T just a run.

No. either way, Brian hates it because it’s not an individual sport.  The four leaders are aided by each other, and Siri is limited by those around her, rather than by her own ability.

Response:

  Even a fast swimmer does not want to be too fast, remember the Women’s Olympic race? Rick Actually, Sheila did not need to slow down in the Olympic swim.  She just needed one or two others who could have held her toes.

And there you have it – her performance ultimately suffered because of the swimming deficiency of HER OPPONENTS. What kind of sport is it when the failure of one’s opponents to perform works against one?

Response:

The swim HAS become important, which is interesting from two standpoints. First, it is contrary to the expressed point of view from the majority of contributors to this site, who maintain (in the face of all evidence)

Evidence of equal weight to yours has been posted to the contrary, Lew.  The post included at least four major ITU pro races where it clearly was nothing more than a run after taking a shower and doing a leisurely warmup on the bike.

including several quotes from the participants, including a winner, to that effect. Then there was the established hiring of ‘domestiques’ in the US Olympic trials. Add to this that no one has EVER offered any reason for it other than pathos for the TV cameras.

Response:

Talk about a subject that has been beat to death. I think we sometimes confuse our understandable distaste for drafting  in a non-draft race with the concept of draft legal racing.

No confusion involved.  Given that triathlon was conceived as a race of truth, changing the rules doesn’t sanitize it.

Response:

Now, however, the swim really COUNTS.  It isn’t definitive, but it does provide real opportunity . . . and if you and a couple of other fast swimmers can learn to really haul on the bike, you actually have a chance to hit the podium.  Success is not guaranteed – but at least it is now a reasonable possibility.  Pre-draft-legal, it wasn’t.

I agree. But I think it’s the fact that your success depends on other people, not on your own abilities, that offends the sensibilities of a lot of people. For example, maybe I win the race provided there are 3 other good swimmers in the race who I can use to draft with in the bike portion, but I lose the race if they don’t show up because I’m biking alone until the peloton catches me. If I’m the fastest person in a set of 30 people, shouldn’t I be the fastest person in any proper subset of those people that includes me? It seems that if you favor draft-legal triathlon, your answer is "No, you shouldn’t be." But in *most* other racing sports (cycling being an obvious exception), the answer is yes. I think that’s what people have a problenm with. -Harold

Response:

There were seven in Siri’s pack, to four in the lead group.  Tell me again why it is drafting only works for the lead group? While SHE may have been fast enough to ride with the lead pack, her six pack-mates may not have been. To catch a pack, she needed a faster pack.  She might have been able to catch those four riders if they were each working alone, but with drafting, she was limted by the company she was in.

Let’s see.  If Siri’s pack catches the four leaders, Brian hates the format because it is "nothing but a run".  If Siri’s pack gets hammered on the bike, Brian hates the format because it really ISN’T just a run.  Don’t you just love logic?

Response:

It’s entirely possible that Siri Lindley had a much better chance of catching the bikes in front of her IF they were riding independently and not drafting.  No matter how strong she was, the bike did not matter because catching a drafting group is tough enough without having to run afterwards. Her race was over and she new it.  Being a competitor she chased in vain, unfortunately, in the end it simply did not matter.  The bike portion of a draft legal race is not a likely prospect where one can make up time on a moving train and still have descent legs to run afterwards. Rick

There were seven in Siri’s pack, to four in the lead group.  Tell me again why it is drafting only works for the lead group?  And if that is so, how did Siri win 2001 worlds?  She sure didn’t start out in the lead pack in the latter race.

Response:

There were seven in Siri’s pack, to four in the lead group.  Tell me again why it is drafting only works for the lead group?  

While SHE may have been fast enough to ride with the lead pack, her six pack-mates may not have been. To catch a pack, she needed a faster pack.  She might have been able to catch those four riders if they were each working alone, but with drafting, she was limted by the company she was in.

Response:

In the women’s race, I was surprised to see that the swim was the deciding factor despite (or because of) the race being draft-legal. A pack of four swimmers got a healthy lead in the swim and then worked together on the bike. The breakaway group of 4 was able to extend their lead on the peloton of 7, and the top 3 finishers (and 4 of the top 5) were from that lead group of swimmers. I still don’t like draft legal, but at least it doesn’t completely de-value the swim.

Actually, draft legal (as it is currently raced) for the most part negates the bike.  Triathletes in general have no idea about how to ride in a pack. For instance in the coverage of the Goodwill Games I saw an American (sorry didn’t catch her name) pulling most of the time, while two other Americans sat in behind her.  Now if one of those other Americans had been a super strong runner then it would have made sense for her teamates to protect her, but as it turns out the one doing the pulling was the strongest runner of the bunch and actually caught 4th place.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In the women’s race, I was surprised to see that the swim was the deciding factor despite (or because of) the race being draft-legal. A pack of four swimmers got a healthy lead in the swim and then worked together on the bike. The breakaway group of 4 was able to extend their lead on the peloton of 7, and the top 3 finishers (and 4 of the top 5) were from that lead group of swimmers. I still don’t like draft legal, but at least it doesn’t completely de-value the swim. Actually, draft legal (as it is currently raced) for the most part negates the bike.  Triathletes in general have no idea about how to ride in a pack. For instance in the coverage of the Goodwill Games I saw an American (sorry didn’t catch her name) pulling most of the time, while two other Americans sat in behind her.  Now if one of those other Americans had been a super strong runner then it would have made sense for her teamates to protect her, but as it turns out the one doing the pulling was the strongest runner of the bunch and actually caught 4th place.

"Negates the bike", eh?  Let’s see:  the four leaders had 22 seconds at the end of the swim and 3:50 after the bike.  Boy, I’ll bet the seven women in the first chase pack are glad the bike doesn’t mean anything in ITU-style racing. Why was Siri Lindley doing much of the pulling in the first chase pack? Well, maybe because she saw the medals disappearing up the road, hoped to limit the time gap, and found that no one else in the chase pack was strong enough to help.  Someone should have told her that the bike doesn’t matter. Lew

Response:

—– Original Message —– Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 4:18 PM "Negates the bike", eh?  Let’s see:  the four leaders had 22 seconds at the end of the swim and 3:50 after the bike.  Boy, I’ll bet the seven women in the first chase pack are glad the bike doesn’t mean anything in ITU-style racing.

If you are going to quote me at least be honest.  I said, "Actually, draft legal (as it is currently raced) for the most part negates the bike."  That "for the most part" is important because I didn’t say that the bike didn’t mean anything, but that rather it reduces the importance.  For example at the Goodwill Games the same top four places did not change from the swim to the run. Why was Siri Lindley doing much of the pulling in the first chase pack? Well, maybe because she saw the medals disappearing up the road, hoped to limit the time gap, and found that no one else in the chase pack was strong enough to help.  Someone should have told her that the bike doesn’t

matter. I will concede that you probably have seen more draft legal tris than I.  I didn’t even know the names of the individuals involved, so I can’t really evaluate whether the above statement is true.  I will assume that it is true which really only provides evidence for my initial point that triathletes don’t know how to ride in a pack.  I suppose it is possible that five athletes are that much stronger than the rest of the competitors that they can’t be caught drafting or no drafting (which says something about the sorry state of triathlon).  I’ll give you the last word here Lew since you so obviously have much more invested in this than I do.  I only make one request that rather than falling back on sarcasm (which is after all a weak man’s defense) please educate me as to how 1) triathletes are adept at riding in a pack and 2) that the importance of the bike is not greatly reduced or, for the most part negated in a draft legal triathlon as they are currently run.  One final request, since this began in a public forum, let’s please keep it there so that others may be included if they wish. Jeremy

Response:

so obviously have much more invested in this than I do.  I only make one request that rather than falling back on sarcasm (which is after all a weak man’s defense) please educate me as to how 1) triathletes are adept at riding in a pack and 2) that the importance of the bike is not greatly reduced or

Qualify it further – the importance of an *individual’s* bike ability is reduced – and you have it right.

Response:

—– Original Message —– Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 4:18 PM

  I only make one request that rather than falling back on sarcasm (which is after all a weak man’s defense)

My apologies – though I do have a couple of defenses.  Defense #1:  Since sarcasm seems the cultural sine qua non of this newsgroup, I could not help myself.  In other words, Brian made me do it.  Defense #2:  The topic is one of our recurring themes.  "The ITU is ruining the sport because (pick one)(or more):  A draft-legal triathlon is not a real triathlon because the swim is meaningless;  a draft-legal triathlon is not a real triathlon because the bike is meaningless;  if we allow drafting at the ITU level, there is no way to keep it out of our local races (our very-own slippery slope!);  draft-legal triathlons are a major cause of declining moral values (Gary Condit is a known supporter of drafting)."  And that doesn’t even include the most erudite of the bunch:  "Drafting sucks".  When you responded to this thread, I assumed it was just another member of the local flat earth society and reacted accordingly.  1) triathletes are [not] adept at riding in a pack

You are definitely right:  not all elite triathletes are adept at riding in a pack.  USAT has actually recognized the problem and is requiring candidates for its gold, silver, and resident teams to become licensed with USA Cycling and compete in at least two sanctioned draft-legal races each year.  And while that is not going to be a complete answer, it is a start. But, just because there are SOME elite triathletes with less than perfect pack skills, don’t assume that ALL fall into this category.  Take Sheila Taormina for example.  In the three years since she began her triathlon career, she has invested a great deal of time and effort into becoming an accomplished cyclist.  The first two winters, she moved to Tucson and learned with/from that city’s infamously tough morning rides.  Back home, in the warm weather months, she became a regular in the Wednesday Dearborn ride that often includes eight-time Tour de France finisher Frankie Andrieu and often competes in the Thursday night 50-mile criterium across the river in Windsor. The effort is beginning to show, both in pack conditions and in the "race of truth".  She now can hang on Frankie’s wheel, even when most of the others (all men) get dropped.  At the Toronto World Cup in early July, she missed making the lead pack of eight (her hands and feet were so cold from the 53-degree water that she couldn’t get her feet into her shoes for nearly the entire first lap), so she basically time-trialed the entire 40k and still lost only 40 seconds to the lead pack.  And though you couldn’t really tell from the Goodwill Games telecast, I suspect she was a major driving force in creating the nearly four-minute gap at the end of the bike. and 2) that the importance of the bike is not greatly reduced or, for the most part negated in a draft legal triathlon as they are currently run.

I don’t agree.  The bike still matters, perhaps even more than it does under the non-drafting rules.  It isn’t critical in EVERY race . . . but, more often than not, it is downright determinative.  Example:  the women’s race at the recent Goodwill Games, where the importance of the bike was obvious. Example:  the men’s race at the same Goodwill Games, where Chris McCormack and Hamish Carter got a 2:45 margin by T2 and ended up an easy one-two. Example:  US Olympic Trials in Dallas, where Sheila T. and Barb Lindquist destroyed the field on the bike and got Sheila a surprise win.  Example: the men’s race at the 2001 Worlds, where four cyclists got away near the end of the bike, wedged a 30-second margin, and then one of the four – Peter Robertson – held that margin to the finish.  Example:  Women’s race at 1999 Worlds in Montreal – six women got a 20-second lead in the swim, expanded that to 1:10 by the end of the bike, and then Loretta Harrop held off Jackie Gallagher, Emma Carney, and Michellie Jones (all faster runners) to win the gold.  Example:  both the men’s and women’s race at 2000 Worlds in Perth. In the women’s race, Taormina, Lindquist, and Hackett got a 20 second margin in the swim, then built it to 2:10 at the end of the bike and ended up going one-four-six.  And in the men’s race, Olivier Marceau got a break on the bike and made it stand up over the faster runners in the final leg. One final request, since this began in a public forum, let’s please keep it there so that others may be included if they wish.

I initially pushed the "reply" button by mistake, rather than the one marked "reply to newsgroup".  When I realized the error, I posted the identical reply to the newsgroup. Lew – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

 The topic is one of our recurring themes.  "The ITU is ruining the sport because (pick one)(or more):  A draft-legal triathlon is not a real triathlon because the swim is meaningless;  a draft-legal triathlon is not a real triathlon because the bike is meaningless;  if we allow drafting at the ITU level, there is no way to keep it out of our local races (our very-own slippery slope!);  draft-legal triathlons are a major cause of declining moral values (Gary Condit is a known supporter of drafting)."  And that doesn’t even include the most erudite of the bunch:  "Drafting sucks".  When you responded to this thread, I assumed it was just another member of the local flat earth society and reacted accordingly.

Nope, I don’t have problems with drafting per se, my issue is that as a whole triathletes don’t know how to do it and therefore I think that draft legal racing on the detracts from the sport.  I think that triathlon at all levels is in trouble.  I realize that some might disagree by pointing to it’s growth, but in my opinion that is the problem.  The bike courses in many triathlons has become too crowded, just read some of the posts here regarding IMC and Mrs. T’s.  Allowing drafting has been one answer, but at the age group level it won’t work.  Go watch a Cat V crit on the road, now imagine it with more participants than the course could handle and that would be a best case scenario for a draft legal age group tris.  1) triathletes are [not] adept at riding in a pack You are definitely right:  not all elite triathletes are adept at riding in a pack.  USAT has actually recognized the problem and is requiring candidates for its gold, silver, and resident teams to become licensed with USA Cycling and compete in at least two sanctioned draft-legal races each year.  And while that is not going to be a complete answer, it is a start.

You are right, it is a start.  I think that all elite triathletes (who are going to be doing ITU racing) should probably be a USA Cycling Cat II.   But, just because there are SOME elite triathletes with less than perfect pack skills, don’t assume that ALL fall into this category.  Take Sheila Taormina for example.  In the three years since she began her triathlon career, she has invested a great deal of time and effort into becoming an accomplished cyclist.  The first two winters, she moved to Tucson and learned with/from that city’s infamously tough morning rides.  Back home, in the warm weather months, she became a regular in the Wednesday Dearborn ride that often includes eight-time Tour de France finisher Frankie Andrieu and often competes in the Thursday night 50-mile criterium across the river in Windsor.

You are right, I was aware of here riding abilities and was remiss in painting her with the same brush.  My apologies to Sheila Taorimina. Michelle Jones is also a good pack rider as she demonstrated in the Oly tri when she got the group organized and calmed down in the rainy conditions. If USA Triathlon got all of their riders as capable of riding in a pack as Ms. Taorimina then they would dominate the ITU circuit. and 2) that the importance of the bike is not greatly reduced or, for the most part negated in a draft legal triathlon as they are currently run. I don’t agree.  The bike still matters, perhaps even more than it does under the non-drafting rules.  It isn’t critical in EVERY race . . . but, more often than not, it is downright determinative.  Example:  the women’s race at the recent Goodwill Games, where the importance of the bike was

obvious. I think that here is where our views differ.  Prior to draft legal tris, the bike was critical in every race.   What I saw in the Goodwill Games was that the top four women out of the water occupied four of the top five spots on the podium.  How often does that happen in tris without drafting. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Example:  the men’s race at the same Goodwill Games, where Chris McCormack and Hamish Carter got a 2:45 margin by T2 and ended up an easy one-two. Example:  US Olympic Trials in Dallas, where Sheila T. and Barb Lindquist destroyed the field on the bike and got Sheila a surprise win.  Example: the men’s race at the 2001 Worlds, where four cyclists got away near the end of the bike, wedged a 30-second margin, and then one of the four – Peter Robertson – held that margin to the finish.  Example:  Women’s race at 1999 Worlds in Montreal – six women got a 20-second lead in the swim, expanded that to 1:10 by the end of the bike, and then Loretta Harrop held off Jackie Gallagher, Emma Carney, and Michellie Jones (all faster runners) to win the gold.  Example:  both the men’s and women’s race at 2000 Worlds in Perth. In the women’s race, Taormina, Lindquist, and Hackett got a 20 second margin in the swim, then built it to 2:10 at the end of the bike and ended up going one-four-six.  And in the men’s race, Olivier Marceau got a break on the bike and made it stand up over the faster runners in the final leg.

I didn’t catch most of these races so I am not going to comment too much, but it appears to me that with the current state of pack riding abilities the swim has become more important at the expense of the bike. One final request, since this began in a public forum, let’s please keep it there so that others may be included if they wish. I initially pushed the "reply" button by mistake, rather than the one marked "reply to newsgroup".  When I realized the error, I posted the identical reply to the newsgroup.

I have made the same mistake. Jeremy

Response:

The Goodwill Games men’s triathlon will be covered on TNT tonight (Wednesday) in prime time. The women’s coverage was good, I thought. Of course, the event has been over for a while and they’ll be doing a time-compressed version of the event, but if you’re starved for coverage. . . . In the women’s race, I was surprised to see that the swim was the deciding factor despite (or because of) the race being draft-legal. A pack of four swimmers got a healthy lead in the swim and then worked together on the bike. The breakaway group of 4 was able to extend their lead on the peloton of 7, and the top 3 finishers (and 4 of the top 5) were from that lead group of swimmers. I still don’t like draft legal, but at least it doesn’t completely de-value the swim. -Harold

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Question:

Check out the Triathlete.com Race Calendar at: http://www.triathlete.com/races.asp

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve tried and tried and tried… but I can’t find a listings page ANYWHERE on the web for triathlons in South Florida for the year 2001.  I and other RST members will crown you "Master RST Web Surfer" if you can find a listings page for Miami, Fort Lauderdale, South Florida, or Florida, that shows *local* races.  Google?  No.  Excite?  Nope. Snap!/NBCI?  Don’t think so.  Arrrrggghhh! I’ve found Ironman Florida, the Florida Ironman, St. Pete’s, and the Gulf Coast Tri- but no local listings! Thanks in advance for your finely honed surfing skills! David

www.florida sports.com www.sbr-multisport.com www.trifind.com/fl.html www.greatfloridian.com (follow links for other races www.championsp.com (mostly Du’s) http://208.133.53.51/handler.cfm?Action=Main (esm sports, the main Tri series in South Florida) There’s lots more…what do I win? Also non-web, check the Herald on Thursday’s for local Tri,running, biking listings in the sports page.  Florida Sports is my favorite source for listings, reviews, articles ect…First local tri of the year coming up soon, the FAU Tri is usually first couple days of April.  Motorola Du in early March.  EMS starts in April.  Key Biscayne will host several Tri’s starting soon. Lot’s of off-road stuff already.  Don’t bother with St. Petes, crowded, horrible course, expensive, draft-fest, silly ITU style pro race.  Clermont is well worth the trip for 7 great races each year. Tim buaidh no bas

Response:

Yeah i did some searching, go to www.floridasports.com and go to calendar–then triathlon, and they have some stuff. jeremy b

Response:

I’ve tried and tried and tried… but I can’t find a listings page ANYWHERE on the web for triathlons in South Florida for the year 2001.  I and other RST members will crown you "Master RST Web Surfer" if you can find a listings page for Miami, Fort Lauderdale, South Florida, or Florida, that shows *local* races.  Google?  No.  Excite?  Nope. Snap!/NBCI?  Don’t think so.  Arrrrggghhh! I’ve found Ironman Florida, the Florida Ironman, St. Pete’s, and the Gulf Coast Tri- but no local listings! Thanks in advance for your finely honed surfing skills! David

Response:

Question:

In last month’s issue of Triathlete magazine, there was a short spread on Lori Bowden’s attempt to correct her eyesight with laser eye surgery.  Has anyone out there had this surgery done? Is this surgery covered by insurance?  (UHIP in my case) I think this procedure would make any training session (and any triathlon for that matter) much more enjoyable. However this is an expensive surgery.  There’s a girl that lives down the hall from me that is getting it done via a new clinic in Quebec for $1000 CDN for both eyes.  Normally it’s around $1000/eye, I’ve heard. Thanks, Matt

Response:

Matt, I had laser  surgery to both eyes just over 1 year ago.  The cost for the procedure (LASIK) was $5200 for both eyes, and it was the best money I ever spent.  After needing glasses or contacts since the 3rd grade, its great to able to awake in the morning and see the alarm clock.  No more having to put in contacts before going for a run or swim.  And my vision test out at 20/20. The procedure is elective, and consequently is not covered by insurance.  But you can pay for it with pre-tax dollars from a medical spending account. The surgery is expensive, but something as important as your eyes deserves the best. Good luck, Bob

Response:

Hi Matt: In the Canadian context, I remember an article in the Globe and Mail on LASIK. I think it was a Saturday, three or four weeks back (probably 27/2). The writer was down on the procedure, and warned against going with the cheap alternative where the lasers might be sub-standard and the technicians poorly trained. It might be worth a look. Regards – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -In last month’s issue of Triathlete magazine, there was a short spread on Lori Bowden’s attempt to correct her eyesight with laser eye surgery.  Has anyone out there had this surgery done? Is this surgery covered by insurance?  (UHIP in my case) I think this procedure would make any training session (and any triathlon for that matter) much more enjoyable. However this is an expensive surgery.  There’s a girl that lives down the hall from me that is getting it done via a new clinic in Quebec for $1000 CDN for both eyes.  Normally it’s around $1000/eye, I’ve heard. Thanks, Matt

Response:

I had laser surgey in 1996 in Canada.  I went from 20/400 to 20/20.  It’s great! I’m American, and No, insurance, unfortunately, does not cover the procedure. At least none I’ve heard of.  It is either "experimental" (even though it’s FDA approved), or "cosmetic." You might be able to persuade your insurance co. to pay if you need it for health reasons: ie, you’ll go blind otherwise.  If you can’t, though, try your employer’s Cafeteria Plan (aka a 125 plan) if available  - it lets you set aside pre-tax dollars for payment of medical services.  It’s either that or sell your favorite bike. Scott

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Does anyone have experience with corrective surgery for far-sightedness?

Response:

Its being done in  Canada. The FDA has only approved lasik for nearsightedness in the US

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does anyone have experience with corrective surgery for far-sightedness?

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Question:

This is the only race that I have actually won outright 3 years ago. Wow.  Congratulations!  I hope you do as well your next time out.

This is the first year I didn’t do it. I couldn’t make it because I did the Great Chesapeake Bay Swim that same day. I hope to win there again although the race is now attracting some stiff competition these days. Point taken.  Is there some place to stash an old pair of sneakers for the run to T1, or is this going a little overboard?

Yes, They do allow footwear at the swim finish. Sandals in this area would do just fine. I’ve heard scary stories around the campfire about this hill.  I guess a few hill repeats in the park should help me out here, though 50mph down seems to be incredible!

Yep, the first time I did this race many years I was going so fast I had to miss the turn. With the speed I was going, by the time I stopped I was almost on the Palisades Parkway before I can turn my bike around and get back on that course! There will be ample warning in the form of signs and a person at  the turn guiding you the right way. Again, good luck in the race.                           |26      | IMC’96: 10:36:37          |   Fe   |   ‘98 IMC, GCT, BSLT IMC’97: 10:42:53          |        |                  "THE BEST ELEMENT OF RACING"

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Hi, I’m wondering if anyone here competed in the Harriman State Park/Powerbar Triathlon in June (on the 14th I believe).  There is another race in August, billed as the second in a series of 2.  The location is the same, and the distances are the same (.5m/16m/3m), so I’m assuming the course is the same.  Anyway, can anyone shed some light on the course.  I’m considering doing the one in August as my second race ever.  Any advice regarding the course is appreciated! Lance — | Lance Ball | Anima Sana in Corpore Sano

Response:

Hi, I’m wondering if anyone here competed in the Harriman State Park/Powerbar Triathlon in June (on the 14th I believe).  There is another race in August, billed as the second in a series of 2.  The location is the same, and the distances are the same (.5m/16m/3m), so I’m assuming the course is the same.  Anyway, can anyone shed some light on the course.  I’m considering doing the one in August as my second race ever.  Any advice regarding the course is appreciated! Lance

This is the only race that I have actually won outright 3 years ago. It’s an excellent race; I plan to go back there next year. Oh, and the distances are accurate also. The swim is an easy out and back, and you can’t get lost. Since you are doing the second race, there is a slight problem concerning getting tangled in a little seaweed, but it is minor. Once you’re out of the beach you run up a hill to the transition area. Be careful of the gravelled road with bare feet. It can get nasty sometimes. The bike starts with an uphill climb out of the beach area. At around mile 4 or 5 you encounter a very steep 50MPH downhill. It’s very important to know where you have to brake and shift down, because when you get to the bottom there is a sharp turn (almost like a "u") where you must brake. If you do not shift to your smaller chainring before the turn, you will fall, because right at that moment, you begin a 3 mile climb which might feel like forever to do. Once up on the top, the rest of the course is slightly downhill and fast. The run is an out and back course, going slightly uphill going out, but slightly downhill going back. One concern…since this is the second race, the park is open. That means some traffic will be with you on the course. Be careful, especially at the traffic circles. Good luck in the race.                           |26      | IMC’96: 10:36:37          |   Fe   |   ‘98 IMC, GCT, BSLT IMC’97: 10:42:53          |        |                  "THE BEST ELEMENT OF RACING"

Response:

This is the only race that I have actually won outright 3 years ago.

Wow.  Congratulations!  I hope you do as well your next time out. Once you’re out of the beach you run up a hill to the transition area. Be careful of the gravelled road with bare feet. It can get nasty sometimes.

Point taken.  Is there some place to stash an old pair of sneakers for the run to T1, or is this going a little overboard? The bike starts with an uphill climb out of the beach area. At around mile 4 or 5 you encounter a very steep 50MPH downhill. It’s very important to know where you have to brake and shift down, because when you get to the bottom there is a sharp turn (almost like a "u") where you must brake. If you do not shift to your smaller chainring before the turn, you will fall, because right at that moment, you begin a 3 mile climb which might feel like forever to do. Once up on the top, the rest of the course is slightly downhill and fast.

I’ve heard scary stories around the campfire about this hill.  I guess a few hill repeats in the park should help me out here, though 50mph down seems to be incredible! The run is an out and back course, going slightly uphill going out, but slightly downhill going back. One concern…since this is the second race, the park is open. That means some traffic will be with you on the course. Be careful, especially at the traffic circles.

Thanks for the advice. Lance — | Lance Ball | Anima Sana in Corpore Sano

Response:

Lance     Harriman, was once billed as a "no frills" triathlon.  It’s a good race but interesting in many ways.  The swim is a A shape keeping the bouys on the right.  Its held in Lake Sebago along 7 lake drive in Harriman State park. Usually there are 2-3 waves and the water is usually warm, wetsuits are permitted.  The tranistion area is in a parking lot that is not paved, has some glass and is full holes.  The bike is 16 miles including some fairly steep hills and one very long ( an frighting) 50mph downhill.  The run is only 3 miles, out and back.  If you do this as your 2nd race I would criuse the swim, go hard on the second part of the bike and hard on the run.  Traditonally the August race is HOT..  New York Tri Club has put on this race twice ayear for at least 5 years  so it is well organized.                               Hope this helps                                       Kevin McKim                                       Franklin Lakes NJ

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Question:

The easiest way to stop sliding forward on your seat whilst on the indoor trainer would be to place something under your front wheel. A phone book is the right thickness here in Canberra. This will effectively reduce the angle of the seat. If you have rear-triangle trainer than the bike will be angled down – you will need to raise the fornt wheel as much as you have raised the back. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve been putting some hours in on my trainer this winter, due more to the fact that I’m doing it with my new bike and trying to get used to it.  I went from a regular old road bike to a QR Kilo.  My problem is this:  I keep (slowly) sliding forward on the saddle to where I’m really just sitting on the nose and always finding myself having to push my butt back to get comfortable.  What should I adjust to compensate for this?  Should I slide my seat forward or rearward?  Or change the height of the saddle or front bars?

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I keep (slowly) sliding forward on the saddle to where I’m really just sitting on the nose and always finding myself having to push my butt back to get comfortable. If this only occurs when your bike is on the wind trainer

What if this occurs NOT on the windtrainer but when your riding?  I too find myself having to scoot back constantly.  However, when I was reading the December Triathlete on page 22 and 23 i noticed that Hellriegel is also sitting real far forward on his seat.  So is this normal to keep slipping forward?  Should i not be fighting it?  I am comfortable up on the nose, but wonder if i can generate more power sitting back? Rob Atlanta

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I’ve been putting some hours in on my trainer this winter, due more to the fact that I’m doing it with my new bike and trying to get used to it.  I went from a regular old road bike to a QR Kilo.  My problem is this:  I keep (slowly) sliding forward on the saddle to where I’m really just sitting on the nose and always finding myself having to push my butt back to get comfortable.  What should I adjust to compensate for this?  Should I slide my seat forward or rearward?  Or change the height of the saddle or front bars?

Sounds like a question for QRman!  I find myself moving forward on my QR sometimes when I’m out on the road.  Sliding back on the saddle makes me more comfortable.  However, I wonder what effect this forward and back movement (even though its only a couple of inches)is having on my pedaling efficiency. Am I defeating the purpose of the forward seat position by moving back in the saddle? I intend to try and find out the answer to these and other bike fitting questions at the QR Road Show in Baltimore.  You might want to check QR’s website at //www.rooworld.com/roadshow.html to see if there’s a show in your area. Yakabo

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 I keep (slowly) sliding forward on the saddle to where I’m really just sitting on the nose and always finding myself having to push my butt back to get comfortable.  What should I adjust to compensate for I had the same problem. I had the seat tilted too far down in front in a vain attempt to improve comfort. I tilted it back, and voila, no more sliding and an actual improvement in comfort. Be sure that you adjust the seat height immediately afterward to avoid knee problems.

Question is, is there a change in results? Changing the seat doesn’t change your comfort level, but also the muscles you are using. I’m having the same problem, but I’d rather have better result than comfort. Btw, when talking results, I mean better tri results, not bikes. If I’d use the same running muscles, and get a better bycicle results but slower run.. what’s the use?? thinker

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sounds like a question for QRman!  I find myself moving forward on my QR sometimes when I’m out on the road.  Sliding back on the saddle makes me more comfortable.  However, I wonder what effect this forward and back movement (even though its only a couple of inches)is having on my pedaling efficiency. Am I defeating the purpose of the forward seat position by moving back in the saddle? I intend to try and find out the answer to these and other bike fitting questions at the QR Road Show in Baltimore.  You might want to check QR’s website at //www.rooworld.com/roadshow.html to see if there’s a show in your area. Yakabo

The QR Show is coming to my town on Valentines Day Weekend.  As to the front wheel, I use a Computrainer and use the wood block under my front wheel that comes with the trainer.  Thanks for all the responses, I’m going to spend a day trying some different seat positions. — Tri Your Hardest!   /O     ___o      o    ~~~~   _ <,_    <|        (*)/ (*)      /           Darrin Bartlett

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Not an uncommon problem with trainers.  I assume your using a device attached to the rear wheel.  I’ve spoken to a coach about this and he has two suggestions (assuming your seat is flat).  Either raise the front wheel of the bike up slightly to avoid the problem, or get some rollers.  You can’t creep forward easily on rollers without getting off balance and meeting the floor. Byro

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I keep (slowly) sliding forward on the saddle to where I’m really just sitting on the nose and always finding myself having to push my butt back to get comfortable.

If this only occurs when your bike is on the wind trainer and the rear wheel is raised, then try putting some books under the front wheel.  This will prevent you from modifying your seat back and forth when you take the bike around the block.  I had the same problem and put some books from college that I hated.  I never used them for class so I figured I would get my monies worth.  (Physics and Chemistry) Very thick and costly. Stay aero Brian

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I’ve been putting some hours in on my trainer this winter, due more to the fact that I’m doing it with my new bike and trying to get used to it.  I went from a regular old road bike to a QR Kilo.  My problem is this:  I keep (slowly) sliding forward on the saddle to where I’m really just sitting on the nose and always finding myself having to push my butt back to get comfortable.  What should I adjust to compensate for this?  Should I slide my seat forward or rearward?  Or change the height of the saddle or front bars? — Tri Your Hardest!   /O     ___o      o    ~~~~   _ <,_    <|        (*)/ (*)      /           Darrin Bartlett

Response:

I’ve been putting some hours in on my trainer this winter, due more to the fact that I’m doing it with my new bike and trying to get used to it.  I went from a regular old road bike to a QR Kilo.  My problem is this:  I keep (slowly) sliding forward on the saddle to where I’m really just sitting on the nose and always finding myself having to push my butt back to get comfortable.  What should I adjust to compensate for this?  Should I slide my seat forward or rearward?  Or change the height of the saddle or front bars? — Tri Your Hardest!

I had the same problem. I had the seat tilted too far down in front in a vain attempt to improve comfort. I tilted it back, and voila, no more sliding and an actual improvement in comfort. Be sure that you adjust the seat height immediately afterward to avoid knee problems. David Aggett  /O     ___o      o   ~~~~  

_ <,_    <|       (*)/ (*)      /           – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Darrin Bartlett

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Question:

Triathlon great Brad Beven has recovered from a virus and is busy preparing for the World Championships later this year. Brad has brought in an expert to assist, find out who. Get the full story at http://www.sportingicons.com.au/ Sporting Icons Official Host of Australia’s Sporting Elite http://www.sportingicons.com.au/

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Triathlon great Brad Beven has recovered from a virus and is busy preparing for the World Championships later this year. Brad has brought in an expert to assist, find out who. Get the full story at http://www.sportingicons.com.au/ Sporting Icons Official Host of Australia’s Sporting Elite http://www.sportingicons.com.au/

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brad beven? he’s that guy who’s really good at that new sport i’ve been seeing where a bunch of guys huddle together in a big group in the water and then huddle agian with bikes and then have a 10k road race, right? a strange looking sport,  as a triathlete it’s not really something i’m interested in since i’d like to see better use of all those really cool bikes, but whatever floats your boat. <minor,insignificant snip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -great Brad Beven has recovered from a virus and is busy preparing for the World Championships later this year. Brad has brought in an expert to assist, find out who. Get the full story at http://www.sportingicons.com.au/ Sporting Icons Official Host of Australia’s Sporting Elite http://www.sportingicons.com.au/

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Question:

I’ll go way out on a limb here, and say that if the original poster really wants something with no sugar, but wants calories he’s got a few choices. One is to mix up a drink using maltodextrin — which is not technically a sugar.  It’s a chain of sugar molecules, I think the term is a starch. Another possibility is to buy a product called Fat Free Gainers Fuel by Twinlab.  This comes in various flavors and contains starchers, protein, a little fat (MCTs I think), and aspertame (Nutrasweet). It’s made to be mixed up thick, like a shake as a meal replacement or supplement, but I’ve used it thinner (around 10% in water in winter) on long bike rides as a liquid food (instead of powerbars) and it works well. I hate aspertame though, so now I buy regular (not sugar free) Gainers Fuel which has sugar. JT

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Hi Patty I’m starting to think Terry’s drink may be good for you. I found a great source on information about sports drink rehydration. http://chico.rice.edu/~jenkins/sports/dehydration.html Let me summarize: Sweat contains more than two grams of sweat per liter. Gatorade

to the triathlon group and his home page is thorough. I sent some info to him at Rice Univ. on behalf of Bill Gookin and don’t know if other "G" word and that is one thing that triggered his inventiveness back in the late 60s. If you decide to contact Bill (or me for that matter) a freebie ’semi-tech’ report on sports activity drinks is diabetes question? I wondered about that. Gookinaid E.R.G. packaging bears the admonition to check with physician in case one is diabetic to ascertain if 5% glucose (max) is tolerable.   2470 Stearns, ste.274             Simi Valley, CA. 93063

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The only type of sugar that would be ok for me to use would be fructose. that is why i was interested in using the orange juice.  And no I am not looking for a "diet" sport drink. I am talking about during my longer runs 15 miles and over. I could be wrong but wouldn’t water alone be considered inadequate for the distance. Well any help and/or advice would be appreciated.

Hi Patty I’m starting to think Terry’s drink may be good for you. I found a great source on information about sports drink rehydration. http://chico.rice.edu/~jenkins/sports/dehydration.html Let me summarize: Sweat contains more than two grams of sweat per liter. Gatorade contains just a little more than one. Potassium and sodium are excreted with the sweat and are more crucial to rehydration than electrolytes. The source also suggests not bothering with a sugar sports drink for runs under 1 hour. Just use water. I personally have good results with drinks using Maltodextrin as the sugar. People in the industry say it burns slower. I have found this sugar dominant in some drinks OTHER than Gatorade. You just have to read the label. Oh, and yes I ran 10k this evening. I had two big glasses of water and a chocolate chip cookie. Bye for now,         J Jay Jewitt Gulf Coast Internet Mall http://www.gcnetmall.com

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The only type of sugar that would be ok for me to use would be fructose. that is why i was interested in using the orange juice.  And no I am not looking for a "diet" sport drink. I am talking about during my longer runs 15 miles and over. I could be wrong but wouldn’t water alone be considered inadequate for the distance. Well any help and/or advice would be appreciated.

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        water and orange juice mixed together?         andrew         (sorry, couldn’t resist Sorry, maybe I wasn’t clear enough……. I am looking for recipes for a sports drink, using orange juice instead of sugar.  I would like to use something on my longer runs, but I can’t really use sugar.  Any help would be appreciated! Thanks!

–            work phone/fax: 0131 668 8356, office: 0131 668 8357     institute for astronomy, royal observatory, blackford hill, edinburgh                      http://www.roe.ac.uk/ajcwww

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i know we’ve been through this before, but i need a recipe for a sports drink without sugar in it.  I can’t use sugar.  Thanks again!

Since glucose, sucrose, fructose, etc are all sugars, I’m not sure there is an energy drink without "sugars". Perhaps you can better define chemically what it is you don’t (can’t ) use? TriBop WebRunner Running Page — Southeast USA Race Calendar 200+ listings. Beginner’s FAQ, Software Download the WebRunner Racing Utilities   http://www.webrunner.com/webrun/running/running.html

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Sorry, maybe I wasn’t clear enough……. I am looking for recipes for a sports drink, using orange juice instead of sugar.  I would like to use something on my longer runs, but I can’t really use sugar.  Any help would be appreciated! Thanks!

Perhaps you need to be a bit more articulate.  Last time I checked orange juice had sugar in it (fructose).  Are you trying to say that you can’t "use" sucrose? Are you diabetic? The overriding purpose of a "sports" drink is 1) fluid replacement 2) energy replacement, and to a much smaller extent 3) electrolite replacement.  So, if you don’t have some form of sugar (glucose, sucrose, fructose, dextrose…) in the drink you might as well be drinking water.  I have yet to see a DIET sportsdrink.  Makes as much sense as dehydrated water. Thom Trimble East Bay Striders

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Gookinaid E.R.G. (Energy Replacement Glucose) Competition flavor……5% Glucose Lemonade and Fruit Punch flavors ….<1% Fructose, 4%+ Glucose Orange Flavor…..<2% Fructose, 3%+ Glucose I sell it or I can put you in touch with Bill Gookin, the biochemist marathoner who invented it 27 years ago. I wouldn’t back pack or play Respectfully, Terry V. Waggoner                  

I don’t want to sound like Mr Wizard or something but now I’m curious about why no sugar. Fruit, milk, bread and candy all has different kinds of sugar. If you want a fluid replacement drink without sugar, you’re a candidate for a trip to the drinking fountain. If taste is what you want, get ANY recipe and substitute an enjoyable quantity of nutrasweet for sugar. I think the sugar is valuable to keep you from depleting. A chewable vitamin C before running would take care of any remaining advantage of a sports drink over water. J Jay Jewitt Gulf Coast Internet Mall http://www.gcnetmall.com

Jay, sorry to take additional bandwidth, but my original late-night posting on Gookinaid E.R.G. had an error. The "E" is for "Electrolyte" and not "Energy". I cancelled the article and rewrote it immediately but it must not have hit all the services. The correction is important because Gookinaid E.R.G. makes your water WORK better by eliminating lower G.I. involvement. Water gets into your system much quicker and cramping is virtually eliminated. No full feeling. My experience is over three years in the high Sierra where proper hydration is vital. The glucose is an important distinction because the common sports activity drinks use glucose *polymers* and digestion is involved. The idea that Gookin had was to replace what the body loses (electrolytes) during exercise and in the proportion lost. My ’selling’ of Gookinaid E.R.G. is a hobby and my motive is to get the best drink possible into tummies. My kids are athletes so I’ve provided the product to soccer teams, softballers, tennis teams and have given it to cramping, dehydrated hikers. There’s no real ‘big buck’ opportunity involved for me here. It’s just fun because so few people have ever heard of this product and I had the opportunity to meet Bill Gookin and thank him for his work. Soooo, if anybody wants to contact him (he’s the biochemist, not me) and get more info, call him in San Diego at 619.689.1959. Try Gookinaid E.R.G. It sells for around a buck a quart or about $10.00 for container that makes 20 2470 Stearns, ste.274             Simi Valley, CA. 93063

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Water?

: i know we’ve been through this before, but i need a recipe for a sports : drink without sugar in it.  I can’t use sugar.  Thanks again!

Response:

Sorry, maybe I wasn’t clear enough……. I am looking for recipes for a sports drink, using orange juice instead of sugar.  I would like to use something on my longer runs, but I can’t really use sugar.  Any help would be appreciated! Thanks!

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Waggoner) writes: i know we’ve been through this before, but i need a recipe for a sports drink without sugar in it.  I can’t use sugar.  Thanks again! Gookinaid E.R.G. (Energy Replacement Glucose) Competition flavor……5% Glucose Lemonade and Fruit Punch flavors ….<1% Fructose, 4%+ Glucose Orange Flavor…..<2% Fructose, 3%+ Glucose I sell it or I can put you in touch with Bill Gookin, the biochemist marathoner who invented it 27 years ago. I wouldn’t back pack or play Respectfully, Terry V. Waggoner, Financial Consultant-Western U.S.                   ‘A Mountain is Something You Don’t Wanta Mess With’ {Quote attributed to Frank Zappa – ’sanitized’ by me} Pardon me,  I thought glucose was sugar.  The original poster wants something without sugar. Nancy  

I don’t want to sound like Mr Wizard or something but now I’m curious about why no sugar. Fruit, milk, bread and candy all has different kinds of sugar. If you want a fluid replacement drink without sugar, you’re a candidate for a trip to the drinking fountain. If taste is what you want, get ANY recipe and substitute an enjoyable quantity of nutrasweet for sugar. I think the sugar is valuable to keep you from depleting. A chewable vitamin C before running would take care of any remaining advantage of a sports drink over water. J Jay Jewitt Gulf Coast Internet Mall http://www.gcnetmall.com

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Waggoner) writes: i know we’ve been through this before, but i need a recipe for a sports drink without sugar in it.  I can’t use sugar.  Thanks again! Gookinaid E.R.G. (Energy Replacement Glucose) Competition flavor……5% Glucose Lemonade and Fruit Punch flavors ….<1% Fructose, 4%+ Glucose Orange Flavor…..<2% Fructose, 3%+ Glucose I sell it or I can put you in touch with Bill Gookin, the biochemist marathoner who invented it 27 years ago. I wouldn’t back pack or play Respectfully, Terry V. Waggoner, Financial Consultant-Western U.S.                   ‘A Mountain is Something You Don’t Wanta Mess With’ {Quote attributed to Frank Zappa – ’sanitized’ by me}

Pardon me,  I thought glucose was sugar.  The original poster wants something without sugar. Nancy  

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i know we’ve been through this before, but i need a recipe for a sports drink without sugar in it.  I can’t use sugar.  Thanks again!

Gookinaid E.R.G. (Electrolyte Replacement Glucose) Competition flavor……5% Glucose Lemonade and Fruit Punch flavors ….<1% Fructose, 4%+ Glucose Orange Flavor…..<2% Fructose, 3%+ Glucose I sell it or I can put you in touch with Bill Gookin, the biochemist marathoner who invented it 27 years ago. I wouldn’t back pack or play Respectfully, Terry V. Waggoner, Financial Consultant-Western U.S.                                     ‘A Mountain is Something You Don’t Wanta Mess With’ {Quote attributed to Frank Zappa – ’sanitized’ by me}

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i know we’ve been through this before, but i need a recipe for a sports drink without sugar in it.  I can’t use sugar.  Thanks again!

Response:

i know we’ve been through this before, but i need a recipe for a sports drink without sugar in it.  I can’t use sugar.  Thanks again!

Gookinaid E.R.G. (Energy Replacement Glucose) Competition flavor……5% Glucose Lemonade and Fruit Punch flavors ….<1% Fructose, 4%+ Glucose Orange Flavor…..<2% Fructose, 3%+ Glucose I sell it or I can put you in touch with Bill Gookin, the biochemist marathoner who invented it 27 years ago. I wouldn’t back pack or play Respectfully, Terry V. Waggoner, Financial Consultant-Western U.S.                                     ‘A Mountain is Something You Don’t Wanta Mess With’ {Quote attributed to Frank Zappa – ’sanitized’ by me}

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Question:

        Lance Armstrong is one hell of a good "North American", eh?! David Barclay Triathlon: "Swim, Bike, Crawl"

Response:

Hahaa!  Yep, a heck of a North American.  Just like that Peter Ried guy. Love the post.  Love the sense of humor.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Lance Armstrong is one hell of a good "North American", eh?! David Barclay Triathlon: "Swim, Bike, Crawl"

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just make sure you don’t fly the flag upside down

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hahaa!  Yep, a heck of a North American.  Just like that Peter Ried guy. Love the post.  Love the sense of humor. Lance Armstrong is one hell of a good "North American", eh?! David Barclay Triathlon: "Swim, Bike, Crawl"

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Texas? Doesn’t that mean he’s almost Central American? Ol

Question:

Anyone know what the water temp has been lately down on the Lakefront ?

Response:

Anyone know what the water temp has been lately down on the Lakefront ?

This may not be accurate, so take it with a grain of salt, but….. A friend of mine (who swam in college so should notice these things) that lives along Lake Michigan about 2 mi from the start says she has seen nothing but wetsuits (primarily quickjohn types) amongst Lake Michigan swimmers. And if these Chicago Yankees need one, you can sho’ bet that a Suth’na from North Carolina like myself will need one. I’m planning to buy one at the expo – if Dan or Paul are willing to deal!!!

Response:

Anyone know what the water temp has been lately down on the Lakefront ?

I was at the lakefront last night.  One lifeguard stand said the water temp was 65 deg., the other said 64 deg.  I didn’t get in, though. A friend of mine (who swam in college so should notice these things) that lives along Lake Michigan about 2 mi from the start says she has seen nothing but wetsuits (primarily quickjohn types) amongst Lake Michigan swimmers. And if these Chicago Yankees need one, you can sho’ bet that a Suth’na from North Carolina like myself will need one.

Dose dere swimmers er jest tryin’ ta get dat exter lill edge.  It’s like Ditka allways sed: "If ya don’t do all ya can, don’t do it al all." — Dan Reiley, Ph.D.     Bell Labs       Naperville, IL

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The water temp was 66-70, depending on location, depth, etc…last Sunday 7-7-96, up at North Avenue beach.  We had very warm weather prior to that weekend.  This week the air temperatures have been much cooler overnight lows in the 50s, daily highs in the 70s.  I’d expect the lake to be colder for the race this weekend. If you’ve been here previously, keep in mind that we’ve had a cold spring this year.  In addition, Mrs. T’s is a month earlier. Come prepared. -rjh

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This may not be accurate, so take it with a grain of salt, but….. A friend of mine (who swam in college so should notice these things) that lives along Lake Michigan about 2 mi from the start says she has seen nothing but wetsuits (primarily quickjohn types) amongst Lake Michigan swimmers. And if these Chicago Yankees need one, you can sho’ bet that a Suth’na from North Carolina like myself will need one. I’m planning to buy one at the expo – if Dan or Paul are willing to deal!!!

Just a friendly word of warning: Go to Ohio Street Beach and swim with your new wetsuit before you race with it to be sure it feels comfortable. I have a friend who at a previous Chicago Triathlon did just as you plan to do, didn’t swim with his brand new wetsuit despite my observing that one should *never* try out new equipment for the first time in a race, and wound up stripping off the wetsuit while holding onto a boat at the side of the swim course during the race.  It was too tight and he felt as if he were going to drown due to lack of air! –Lee ("I like to make my foolish mistakes in private if possible!") Crumbaugh

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Anyone know what the water temp has been lately down on the Lakefront ?

Well, no.  Nobody seems to know exactly.   Local cable news network does a boaters forecast and they are listing the temp at 70 as of 7/11.  However the lifeguard trailer just up the way from Ohio St. beach said 64 at 9:30 this AM as I biked down to get my last swim in. Unless you’re some sort of water stud I wouldn’t even consider getting in without a wetsuit.  Three weeks ago I was a  hypothermia-ish at .5 mile WITH a wetsuit.  It aint *that* much warmer. td

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Anyone know what the water temp has been lately down on the Lakefront ?

As of 10:00 p.m. CST 070996 water temp was 71 degrees. Not too bad at all. Good Luck!

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Anyone know what the water temp has been lately down on the Lakefront ? As of 10:00 p.m. CST 070996 water temp was 71 degrees. Not too bad at all. Good Luck! But remember the water can turn over at a moments notice and churn the temperature greatly.  At Schu’s last year the Lake Michigan water temperature was 79-80F the day before and 58-60F the morning of the race. Todd Jensen

Thank you, Todd!  The Chicago lakefront (and most other lakes, for that matter) are pretty dependent on *surface water* temperature and wind direction.  If the wind has been relatively calm or onshore prior to the race, the temp. will be MUCH warmer than if you have a strong west wind pushing all that nice warm surface water toward Michigan.  If that happens, you get an upwelling of deeper water mixing with the near-shore water, and the temp. drops dramatically.   Rick Teichler                                             Louisville, Colorado) "Usual disclaimers: blame me, not the company that keeps me."

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Anyone know what the water temp has been lately down on the Lakefront ? As of 10:00 p.m. CST 070996 water temp was 71 degrees. Not too bad at all. Good Luck!

But remember the water can turn over at a moments notice and churn the temperature greatly.  At Schu’s last year the Lake Michigan water temperature was 79-80F the day before and 58-60F the morning of the race. Todd Jensen

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