Question:

cam i did the paddy’s day run here in texas ,,,i read in runners world that when your healing  from a injury like a tendon, ligamet , muscle substitute massage for stretching ,,, i will relook up the article =)) ,,, remmember ‘ it’s all about the beer ‘ ,,, We yelled thet the whole race =)) plodzilla – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey Plod, I saw my rolfer today and he virtually eliminated the knots, pain and tightness in my calves. Happy Cam (raring to go in Saturday’s St. Paddy’s Day 5K) cam i have two walnut size knot on right & left calf , the only  thing that finally help was a massage therapist,, btw tha massage also helpef with my knee plodzilla man, just as i’m raring up for race season (5K on the 16th), i get a major knot – really deep – in my right calf. i spent most of last night working on it, and ended up going to bed with it still feeling tight and sore. first i rode the stationary bike to warm up a bit, then i massaged it lightly, then rolled it, then got in there with the fingers and knuckles…. but it’s a stubborn one. this morning it still feels a bit tight and sore, but maybe a day of moving around (and a run) will help it after all of that prodding. i plan to soak in a hot bath tonight, then try all of the above again, in hopes of loosening it up releasing the tension in the calf. and i know that i’ve overstretched the darn thing…. must stop doing that. Ozzy, if you’re out there right now, i know we’ve talked about this stuff before but…. is rolling ALL you do/recommend for the calves? just wondering if there is something else i should or could be doing? thanks for any ideas! Cam (hurtin’ a bit)

Response:

Hey Plod, I saw my rolfer today and he virtually eliminated the knots, pain and tightness in my calves. Happy Cam (raring to go in Saturday’s St. Paddy’s Day 5K) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – cam i have two walnut size knot on right & left calf , the only  thing that finally help was a massage therapist,, btw tha massage also helpef with my knee plodzilla man, just as i’m raring up for race season (5K on the 16th), i get a major knot – really deep – in my right calf. i spent most of last night working on it, and ended up going to bed with it still feeling tight and sore. first i rode the stationary bike to warm up a bit, then i massaged it lightly, then rolled it, then got in there with the fingers and knuckles…. but it’s a stubborn one. this morning it still feels a bit tight and sore, but maybe a day of moving around (and a run) will help it after all of that prodding. i plan to soak in a hot bath tonight, then try all of the above again, in hopes of loosening it up releasing the tension in the calf. and i know that i’ve overstretched the darn thing…. must stop doing that. Ozzy, if you’re out there right now, i know we’ve talked about this stuff before but…. is rolling ALL you do/recommend for the calves? just wondering if there is something else i should or could be doing? thanks for any ideas! Cam (hurtin’ a bit)

Response:

cam i have two walnut size knot on right & left calf , the only  thing that finally help was a massage therapist,, btw tha massage also helpef with my knee plodzilla – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – man, just as i’m raring up for race season (5K on the 16th), i get a major knot – really deep – in my right calf. i spent most of last night working on it, and ended up going to bed with it still feeling tight and sore. first i rode the stationary bike to warm up a bit, then i massaged it lightly, then rolled it, then got in there with the fingers and knuckles…. but it’s a stubborn one. this morning it still feels a bit tight and sore, but maybe a day of moving around (and a run) will help it after all of that prodding. i plan to soak in a hot bath tonight, then try all of the above again, in hopes of loosening it up releasing the tension in the calf. and i know that i’ve overstretched the darn thing…. must stop doing that. Ozzy, if you’re out there right now, i know we’ve talked about this stuff before but…. is rolling ALL you do/recommend for the calves? just wondering if there is something else i should or could be doing? thanks for any ideas! Cam (hurtin’ a bit)

Response:

Ozzie, for me, toe fist means what I do when I kick in swimming but exageratedly so, curling up everything on the bottom of my foot and also pointing my toes.  I can see it working the gastrocnemius (sp?) and, if I concentrate, I can feel it working the soleus as well. Making a toe fist and also flexing my foot hard the other way seems to at least wake them up.  I also find working my foot one way hard seems to relax the muscles on the other side, e.g., I’ve sometimes found the toe fist helps with shin splints. One thing I do notice is that making the toe fist increases my awareness of my foot strike and pushoff when I run. Steve "I’m 47 years young today – whee!" Freides – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [[ This message was both posted and mailed: see    the "To," "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]] Steve, Not  certain that  the toe fist strengthens the calves.  I’d have to think about it more and play with it.   I think I know what you mean by toe fist.   I’m looking to have the calves elongated and strong.  If people don’t understand than they just work on contracting the muscles and don’t understand that we’re looking for strong…elongated muscles. As always, continuing to share folklore and learn. Ozzie If it’s of any consolation, Cam, I often find myself right at the edge of calf cramps and I train like a triathlete – I know you’re now swimming and biking, too.  I’ve never figured out what causes it except good old-fashioned dehydration.  I’ve gotten to the point where I can feel the little tugs that tell me I’ll have an all-out calf cramp in a few minutes if I don’t do something, and when I feel that, I just drink a ton and it usually passes without further trouble in five or ten minutes or so. Ozzie and I tend to come at this from opposite sides – my approach, and it’s been working for me, has been to make a toe fist periodically throughout the day in order to strengthen the muscles in question. -S- man, just as i’m raring up for race season (5K on the 16th), i get a major knot – really deep – in my right calf. i spent most of last night working on it, and ended up going to bed with it still feeling tight and sore. first i rode the stationary bike to warm up a bit, then i massaged it lightly, then rolled it, then got in there with the fingers and knuckles…. but it’s a stubborn one. this morning it still feels a bit tight and sore, but maybe a day of moving around (and a run) will help it after all of that prodding. i plan to soak in a hot bath tonight, then try all of the above again, in hopes of loosening it up releasing the tension in the calf. and i know that i’ve overstretched the darn thing…. must stop doing that. Ozzy, if you’re out there right now, i know we’ve talked about this stuff before but…. is rolling ALL you do/recommend for the calves? just wondering if there is something else i should or could be doing? thanks for any ideas! Cam (hurtin’ a bit)

Response:

I used the rolling pin at firstbut it doesn’t work well with me. I find that massage with my hands is better, if more tiring. This way I can do circles in both directions and up and down and side to side rubbing. But thanks anyway. Cam – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You might want to try using "The Stick" on your errant calf. I have had sucess with it for that kind of problem. You probably could use a rolling pin but you probably would be breaking several patents. man, just as i’m raring up for race season (5K on the 16th), i get a major knot – really deep – in my right calf. i spent most of last night working on it, and ended up going to bed with it still feeling tight and sore. first i rode the stationary bike to warm up a bit, then i massaged it lightly, then rolled it, then got in there with the fingers and knuckles…. but it’s a stubborn one. this morning it still feels a bit tight and sore, but maybe a day of moving around (and a run) will help it after all of that prodding. i plan to soak in a hot bath tonight, then try all of the above again, in hopes of loosening it up releasing the tension in the calf. and i know that i’ve overstretched the darn thing…. must stop doing that. Ozzy, if you’re out there right now, i know we’ve talked about this stuff before but…. is rolling ALL you do/recommend for the calves? just wondering if there is something else i should or could be doing? thanks for any ideas! Cam (hurtin’ a bit)

Response:

Happy birthday, Steve! Better do 47 toe fists now…..  <grin Cam – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ozzie, for me, toe fist means what I do when I kick in swimming but exageratedly so, curling up everything on the bottom of my foot and also pointing my toes.  I can see it working the gastrocnemius (sp?) and, if I concentrate, I can feel it working the soleus as well. Making a toe fist and also flexing my foot hard the other way seems to at least wake them up.  I also find working my foot one way hard seems to relax the muscles on the other side, e.g., I’ve sometimes found the toe fist helps with shin splints. One thing I do notice is that making the toe fist increases my awareness of my foot strike and pushoff when I run. Steve "I’m 47 years young today – whee!" Freides [[ This message was both posted and mailed: see    the "To," "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]] Steve, Not  certain that  the toe fist strengthens the calves.  I’d have to think about it more and play with it.   I think I know what you mean by toe fist.   I’m looking to have the calves elongated and strong.  If people don’t understand than they just work on contracting the muscles and don’t understand that we’re looking for strong…elongated muscles. As always, continuing to share folklore and learn. Ozzie If it’s of any consolation, Cam, I often find myself right at the edge of calf cramps and I train like a triathlete – I know you’re now swimming and biking, too.  I’ve never figured out what causes it except good old-fashioned dehydration.  I’ve gotten to the point where I can feel the little tugs that tell me I’ll have an all-out calf cramp in a few minutes if I don’t do something, and when I feel that, I just drink a ton and it usually passes without further trouble in five or ten minutes or so. Ozzie and I tend to come at this from opposite sides – my approach, and it’s been working for me, has been to make a toe fist periodically throughout the day in order to strengthen the muscles in question. -S- man, just as i’m raring up for race season (5K on the 16th), i get a major knot – really deep – in my right calf. i spent most of last night working on it, and ended up going to bed with it still feeling tight and sore. first i rode the stationary bike to warm up a bit, then i massaged it lightly, then rolled it, then got in there with the fingers and knuckles…. but it’s a stubborn one. this morning it still feels a bit tight and sore, but maybe a day of moving around (and a run) will help it after all of that prodding. i plan to soak in a hot bath tonight, then try all of the above again, in hopes of loosening it up releasing the tension in the calf. and i know that i’ve overstretched the darn thing…. must stop doing that. Ozzy, if you’re out there right now, i know we’ve talked about this stuff before but…. is rolling ALL you do/recommend for the calves? just wondering if there is something else i should or could be doing? thanks for any ideas! Cam (hurtin’ a bit)

Response:

Steve, This is interesting. I just tried the toe fist and could feel the relief to the aggravated area. I have had some success in relieving the calf tightness through rolling, massage and ice. Thanks… Cam – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If it’s of any consolation, Cam, I often find myself right at the edge of calf cramps and I train like a triathlete – I know you’re now swimming and biking, too.  I’ve never figured out what causes it except good old-fashioned dehydration.  I’ve gotten to the point where I can feel the little tugs that tell me I’ll have an all-out calf cramp in a few minutes if I don’t do something, and when I feel that, I just drink a ton and it usually passes without further trouble in five or ten minutes or so. Ozzie and I tend to come at this from opposite sides – my approach, and it’s been working for me, has been to make a toe fist periodically throughout the day in order to strengthen the muscles in question. -S- man, just as i’m raring up for race season (5K on the 16th), i get a major knot – really deep – in my right calf. i spent most of last night working on it, and ended up going to bed with it still feeling tight and sore. first i rode the stationary bike to warm up a bit, then i massaged it lightly, then rolled it, then got in there with the fingers and knuckles…. but it’s a stubborn one. this morning it still feels a bit tight and sore, but maybe a day of moving around (and a run) will help it after all of that prodding. i plan to soak in a hot bath tonight, then try all of the above again, in hopes of loosening it up releasing the tension in the calf. and i know that i’ve overstretched the darn thing…. must stop doing that. Ozzy, if you’re out there right now, i know we’ve talked about this stuff before but…. is rolling ALL you do/recommend for the calves? just wondering if there is something else i should or could be doing? thanks for any ideas! Cam (hurtin’ a bit)

Response:

It sounds like the soleus to me too. This is a very common injury sometimes caused by not stretching this muscle (need to stretch with a bent knee). I have also found that damage can be done by stretching it too much – especially after it has been problematic.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [[ This message was both posted and mailed: see    the "To," "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]] man, just as i’m raring up for race season (5K on the 16th), i get a major knot – really deep – in my right calf. i spent most of last night working on it, and ended up going to bed with it still feeling tight and sore. first i rode the stationary bike to warm up a bit, then i massaged it lightly, then rolled it, then got in there with the fingers and knuckles…. but it’s a stubborn one. this morning it still feels a bit tight and sore, but maybe a day of moving around (and a run) will help it after all of that prodding. i plan to soak in a hot bath tonight, then try all of the above again, in hopes of loosening it up releasing the tension in the calf. and i know that i’ve overstretched the darn thing…. must stop doing that. Ozzy, if you’re out there right now, i know we’ve talked about this stuff before but…. is rolling ALL you do/recommend for the calves? just wondering if there is something else i should or could be doing? thanks for any ideas! Cam (hurtin’ a bit) Cam, Something’s going on that  resulted in a tight right calf.  If it’s deep then it’s the soleus.  I’d be careful with going in with the fingers and knuckles as  you can do more damage to the muscle tissue. I’d imagine that the knot is to protect that area from some trauma that it was experiencing. I’d look at massaging out the  anterior tibialis.  Also I’d look back to how you were standing for an extended period of time that tightened the muscle and then when you did some running the area that was sore got strained and the surrounding muscle cramped to protect the injured area from any more damage. Often the muscle cramp is caused by the antagonist (opposite) muscle not letting go, so the working muscle, in this case the soleus, has to work against a semicontracted muscle causing it to have to strain and work too hard…until…….owwwwww…..the cramp notifies you that you’ve strained some muscle fibers and the surrounding muscles are coming to its aid to protect it,…and them…..and the mind/body/spirit of the runner. Remember heat in a new injury, if there is bleeding, will only swell up that area more and can lead to further damage of uninjured tissue because of the swelling.  To keep the swelling down, the first 24 to 48 hours ice is suggested.  Plus the rest of the RICE. If y ou’vee been doing calf strengthening exercises like toe raises, or stretching the calf by lowering off a step to stretch the calves, you can also strain the muscles.  Remember a weight bearing muscle can’t stretch.  The reason I keep telling people that the old stretch of the calf as you push a wall over is a problem.  Most people put the weight on the back leg which means it’s weightbearing.  The weight should be on the front leg so that if I kicked your back leg being stretched upward, nothing would happen to you because the weight would have been on the front foot.  If the back foot is weightbearing, then if I kicked your back leg doing the calf stretch out from under you, you’d fall on your face, or land pretty hard on your hands and knees. When we stand during the day, we should be able to always wiggle our toes.  Even when one goes up to the ball of the foot, the toes should be able to be wiggled. Take care, Ozzie Maintainer -rec.running FAQ

Response:

If anything, I may have overstretched it. I backed off on that a bit, but the injury got worse anyway. I seem to be getting it under control now though. Thanks! Cam – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It sounds like the soleus to me too. This is a very common injury sometimes caused by not stretching this muscle (need to stretch with a bent knee). I have also found that damage can be done by stretching it too much – especially after it has been problematic. [[ This message was both posted and mailed: see    the "To," "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]] man, just as i’m raring up for race season (5K on the 16th), i get a major knot – really deep – in my right calf. i spent most of last night working on it, and ended up going to bed with it still feeling tight and sore. first i rode the stationary bike to warm up a bit, then i massaged it lightly, then rolled it, then got in there with the fingers and knuckles…. but it’s a stubborn one. this morning it still feels a bit tight and sore, but maybe a day of moving around (and a run) will help it after all of that prodding. i plan to soak in a hot bath tonight, then try all of the above again, in hopes of loosening it up releasing the tension in the calf. and i know that i’ve overstretched the darn thing…. must stop doing that. Ozzy, if you’re out there right now, i know we’ve talked about this stuff before but…. is rolling ALL you do/recommend for the calves? just wondering if there is something else i should or could be doing? thanks for any ideas! Cam (hurtin’ a bit)

Response:

[[ This message was both posted and mailed: see    the "To," "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]] – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – man, just as i’m raring up for race season (5K on the 16th), i get a major knot – really deep – in my right calf. i spent most of last night working on it, and ended up going to bed with it still feeling tight and sore. first i rode the stationary bike to warm up a bit, then i massaged it lightly, then rolled it, then got in there with the fingers and knuckles…. but it’s a stubborn one. this morning it still feels a bit tight and sore, but maybe a day of moving around (and a run) will help it after all of that prodding. i plan to soak in a hot bath tonight, then try all of the above again, in hopes of loosening it up releasing the tension in the calf. and i know that i’ve overstretched the darn thing…. must stop doing that. Ozzy, if you’re out there right now, i know we’ve talked about this stuff before but…. is rolling ALL you do/recommend for the calves? just wondering if there is something else i should or could be doing? thanks for any ideas! Cam (hurtin’ a bit)

Cam, Something’s going on that  resulted in a tight right calf.  If it’s deep then it’s the soleus.  I’d be careful with going in with the fingers and knuckles as  you can do more damage to the muscle tissue. I’d imagine that the knot is to protect that area from some trauma that it was experiencing.   I’d look at massaging out the  anterior tibialis.  Also I’d look back to how you were standing for an extended period of time that tightened the muscle and then when you did some running the area that was sore got strained and the surrounding muscle cramped to protect the injured area from any more damage. Often the muscle cramp is caused by the antagonist (opposite) muscle not letting go, so the working muscle, in this case the soleus, has to work against a semicontracted muscle causing it to have to strain and work too hard…until…….owwwwww…..the cramp notifies you that you’ve strained some muscle fibers and the surrounding muscles are coming to its aid to protect it,…and them…..and the mind/body/spirit of the runner. Remember heat in a new injury, if there is bleeding, will only swell up that area more and can lead to further damage of uninjured tissue because of the swelling.  To keep the swelling down, the first 24 to 48 hours ice is suggested.  Plus the rest of the RICE. If y ou’vee been doing calf strengthening exercises like toe raises, or stretching the calf by lowering off a step to stretch the calves, you can also strain the muscles.  Remember a weight bearing muscle can’t stretch.  The reason I keep telling people that the old stretch of the calf as you push a wall over is a problem.  Most people put the weight on the back leg which means it’s weightbearing.  The weight should be on the front leg so that if I kicked your back leg being stretched upward, nothing would happen to you because the weight would have been on the front foot.  If the back foot is weightbearing, then if I kicked your back leg doing the calf stretch out from under you, you’d fall on your face, or land pretty hard on your hands and knees. When we stand during the day, we should be able to always wiggle our toes.  Even when one goes up to the ball of the foot, the toes should be able to be wiggled. Take care, Ozzie Maintainer -rec.running FAQ

Response:

If it’s of any consolation, Cam, I often find myself right at the edge of calf cramps and I train like a triathlete – I know you’re now swimming and biking, too.  I’ve never figured out what causes it except good old-fashioned dehydration.  I’ve gotten to the point where I can feel the little tugs that tell me I’ll have an all-out calf cramp in a few minutes if I don’t do something, and when I feel that, I just drink a ton and it usually passes without further trouble in five or ten minutes or so. Ozzie and I tend to come at this from opposite sides – my approach, and it’s been working for me, has been to make a toe fist periodically throughout the day in order to strengthen the muscles in question. -S- – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – man, just as i’m raring up for race season (5K on the 16th), i get a major knot – really deep – in my right calf. i spent most of last night working on it, and ended up going to bed with it still feeling tight and sore. first i rode the stationary bike to warm up a bit, then i massaged it lightly, then rolled it, then got in there with the fingers and knuckles…. but it’s a stubborn one. this morning it still feels a bit tight and sore, but maybe a day of moving around (and a run) will help it after all of that prodding. i plan to soak in a hot bath tonight, then try all of the above again, in hopes of loosening it up releasing the tension in the calf. and i know that i’ve overstretched the darn thing…. must stop doing that. Ozzy, if you’re out there right now, i know we’ve talked about this stuff before but…. is rolling ALL you do/recommend for the calves? just wondering if there is something else i should or could be doing? thanks for any ideas! Cam (hurtin’ a bit)

Response:

[[ This message was both posted and mailed: see    the "To," "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]] Steve, Not  certain that  the toe fist strengthens the calves.  I’d have to think about it more and play with it.   I think I know what you mean by toe fist.   I’m looking to have the calves elongated and strong.  If people don’t understand than they just work on contracting the muscles and don’t understand that we’re looking for strong…elongated muscles. As always, continuing to share folklore and learn. Ozzie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If it’s of any consolation, Cam, I often find myself right at the edge of calf cramps and I train like a triathlete – I know you’re now swimming and biking, too.  I’ve never figured out what causes it except good old-fashioned dehydration.  I’ve gotten to the point where I can feel the little tugs that tell me I’ll have an all-out calf cramp in a few minutes if I don’t do something, and when I feel that, I just drink a ton and it usually passes without further trouble in five or ten minutes or so. Ozzie and I tend to come at this from opposite sides – my approach, and it’s been working for me, has been to make a toe fist periodically throughout the day in order to strengthen the muscles in question. -S- man, just as i’m raring up for race season (5K on the 16th), i get a major knot – really deep – in my right calf. i spent most of last night working on it, and ended up going to bed with it still feeling tight and sore. first i rode the stationary bike to warm up a bit, then i massaged it lightly, then rolled it, then got in there with the fingers and knuckles…. but it’s a stubborn one. this morning it still feels a bit tight and sore, but maybe a day of moving around (and a run) will help it after all of that prodding. i plan to soak in a hot bath tonight, then try all of the above again, in hopes of loosening it up releasing the tension in the calf. and i know that i’ve overstretched the darn thing…. must stop doing that. Ozzy, if you’re out there right now, i know we’ve talked about this stuff before but…. is rolling ALL you do/recommend for the calves? just wondering if there is something else i should or could be doing? thanks for any ideas! Cam (hurtin’ a bit)

Response:

You might want to try using "The Stick" on your errant calf. I have had sucess with it for that kind of problem. You probably could use a rolling pin but you probably would be breaking several patents. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – man, just as i’m raring up for race season (5K on the 16th), i get a major knot – really deep – in my right calf. i spent most of last night working on it, and ended up going to bed with it still feeling tight and sore. first i rode the stationary bike to warm up a bit, then i massaged it lightly, then rolled it, then got in there with the fingers and knuckles…. but it’s a stubborn one. this morning it still feels a bit tight and sore, but maybe a day of moving around (and a run) will help it after all of that prodding. i plan to soak in a hot bath tonight, then try all of the above again, in hopes of loosening it up releasing the tension in the calf. and i know that i’ve overstretched the darn thing…. must stop doing that. Ozzy, if you’re out there right now, i know we’ve talked about this stuff before but…. is rolling ALL you do/recommend for the calves? just wondering if there is something else i should or could be doing? thanks for any ideas! Cam (hurtin’ a bit)

Response:

I discovered (invented?) a neat and convenient way to roll tight calf muscles. when i searched around my place for something of the right size/height to roll ‘em on, i found nothing… except a chair. a chair with some padding but still hard enough that the top edge of the seat would work into the calves. i placed the chair in front of me, turned it sideways with the back to one side of me, grasped the back for balance and support, then stepped over the chair with one leg (OK, i’m tall – i hope this method doesn’t exclude vertically-challenged folks). then i brought my rear leg up close and snug against the nearest edge of the chair’s seat. using my hand on the back to keep myself steady, i could then raise and lower the "draped over" leg to massage the calve both high and low on the far edge of the seat. you might need to experiment with different chairs to find the right hardness/softness and a good height of seat. it worked pretty well for me. give it a try, and if it works, then i guess i’ve created a new bit of running "folklore"…. self-treatment. cheerio, Cam (Son of Ozzie?  :) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – man, just as i’m raring up for race season (5K on the 16th), i get a major knot – really deep – in my right calf. i spent most of last night working on it, and ended up going to bed with it still feeling tight and sore. first i rode the stationary bike to warm up a bit, then i massaged it lightly, then rolled it, then got in there with the fingers and knuckles…. but it’s a stubborn one. this morning it still feels a bit tight and sore, but maybe a day of moving around (and a run) will help it after all of that prodding. i plan to soak in a hot bath tonight, then try all of the above again, in hopes of loosening it up releasing the tension in the calf. and i know that i’ve overstretched the darn thing…. must stop doing that. Ozzy, if you’re out there right now, i know we’ve talked about this stuff before but…. is rolling ALL you do/recommend for the calves? just wondering if there is something else i should or could be doing? thanks for any ideas! Cam (hurtin’ a bit)

Response:

man, just as i’m raring up for race season (5K on the 16th), i get a major knot – really deep – in my right calf. i spent most of last night working on it, and ended up going to bed with it still feeling tight and sore. first i rode the stationary bike to warm up a bit, then i massaged it lightly, then rolled it, then got in there with the fingers and knuckles…. but it’s a stubborn one. this morning it still feels a bit tight and sore, but maybe a day of moving around (and a run) will help it after all of that prodding. i plan to soak in a hot bath tonight, then try all of the above again, in hopes of loosening it up releasing the tension in the calf. and i know that i’ve overstretched the darn thing…. must stop doing that. Ozzy, if you’re out there right now, i know we’ve talked about this stuff before but…. is rolling ALL you do/recommend for the calves? just wondering if there is something else i should or could be doing? thanks for any ideas! Cam (hurtin’ a bit)

Response:

Question:

There’s a lot more courage in Gill’s adventure to win a silver, then there is in Surin or Bailey’s failure to finish.  If I wanted my kids to be like anyone, it would be more Gill than the sprinters right now. — So, you’d rather your kids grow up to be chumps?

Gill is not a chump.  He’s as much a Canadian sports hero as anyone – a silver medallist who has made his country proud.   I surely think he worked harder at this Olympics and demonstrated more sportsmanship than Surin or Bailey – and certainly presented himself more professionally before, during and after his event.   I would want my kids to grow up emulating someone who works hard and makes the best of their skills with limited resources, instead of someone who has a giant ego that needs constant stroking, and who can’t admit when they are beaten. — Lorne Sundby

Response:

I recommend Christie Blatchford’s article about the Canadian reporters at the Olympic games. They were starting up the "what a bunch of choking losers these pampered, spoiled jerks are" stories before the women’s triathlon was over. Frankly, any money the sprinters have they earned in competition by beating other sprinters. BobMac

Response:

Just hear from an internet stream on CBC, one of the commentators suggesting why money should go towards falling social services before going for sports. She (sorry, don’t recall her name) said that Canada has one of the worst cases of spousal battery, and Canada doesn’t have a national homeless plan (or something like that…can’t recall exact phrasing). Certainly one thing I’m happy for Canadian society is its social services. Nothing beats having the government give great support to one’s mentally retarded sibling (mine) steady financial and social support! As my friend says, "Socialism rocks!"

This is the classic argument, in Canada anyways.  It was profiled very prominently when the government was offering to bail out the NHL teams.   The outcry is slightly less vitriolic when it is Olympic athletes, but the realities remain – we have homeless people, crime, battering relationships, sick people, etc.  The money should go there. (BTW, not that it matters in this thread, but there IS a national homelessness plan, with lots of money – $560M over 5 years.) — Lorne Sundby

Response:

Oh, I agree with you that it’s almost impossible (if not actually impossible) to compete at world class level in most sports without corporate sponsorship. One could argue that corporate sponsorship has helped to risen the level of world class competition.

Absolutely. I don’t know if you’re familiar with the great sport of rugby, but we’ve seen similar things in that. Even five years ago, rugby was an amateur sport, and even those players who represent their countries had to hold down day jobs as doctors, lawyers, whatever. While many still express longings for the "good old days", it’s clear that even in the few years that people have been paid to play rugby (allowing players to concentrate on training), players have been getting faster, fitter and stronger, and the general level of play has improved. (It’s easier for a team to train together when everyone is actually present, as opposed to having this player or that player being unable to get time off from work.) In addition, the money entices more people to start playing the game – and generally, the deeper the pool of players to draw from, the higher the quality of the top players. While you seem to imply sports is a form of entertainment, I would like to entertain the thought that sports is a job. Sports can be a job for many people. In fact, I view my own running as a job–and it’s a job that I enjoy doing.

I fully agree that sport is (and that top-level sport should be) a job. I only meant that athletes provide entertainment for the spectators, and it’s only fair that they get something in return for their sacrifice and dedication. P.S. I, too, am totally against governments sponsoring athletes. That’s a job for the free market – and for the fans.

Response:

I’m not exactly sure where I stand in terms of government sponsorship of athletes, but certainly I don’t stand against it.

And I don’t either once they have a few other nitty things solved first – deadly and debilitating diseases, quality free medical care, education, crime, and the list goes on. I love sports as much as anyone but I’d rather see every dime of Olympic money, sponsorship funds included, go to something like Cancer.   Corporations have their respective dirty laundry but the lesser of two evils.   — Caveat Lector!

Response:

I recommend Christie Blatchford’s article about the Canadian reporters at the Olympic games. They were starting up the "what a bunch of choking losers these pampered, spoiled jerks are" stories before the women’s triathlon was over. Frankly, any money the sprinters have they earned in competition by beating other sprinters. BobMac

Where can we read the article? Or would you post it to the forum? Thanks, C

Response:

In fact shoe sponsorship deals are not what they once were.  Nike, Reebok, et al realized that by focusing their resources they could do as well if not better in the marketing business.   Athletes may get shoes and apparel (which in the US is taxable) but they are not getting cash the way they once were.

Don’t know. But one runner I spoke to said that Asics basically gives her a catalogue and she has a lump sum of money in which to spend on the on buying her equipment. I don’t recall her saying anything about a stipend or even a coach! Unlike Nike which as "Farm Teams" Asics doesn’t in the U.S. Each Asics sponsored athlete does their own training without coaching support from Asics. C

Response:

I prefer the US system where the athletes receive support directly from Americans or corporations and government assistance might only come in the form of parks and venues that are open to all.  This way the athlete really is not at the mercy of politics or being used as a pawn in some idiotic debate about whether to spend 1.1 or 1.2 gazillion dollars (when a program should not be in existence).

Right, as if they’re not in the stranglehold of corporations. Corporations have their own politics too…and we don’t necessarily mean nation-state politics which is what you’re implying. C

Response:

Surin and Bailey’s non-performance is consistent for world-class sprinters. They have gigantic egos.  They’d rather pull up lame than admit that they were beaten fair and square.  Remember Michael Johnson’s performance in the 150m "Race of the Century" against Bailey at the Skydome?  Same thing there. That’s why I appreciated Ato Bolden’s comments after the 100m when he acknowledged that Greene was in another class altogether.  Honesty – how refreshing. Henry

Response:

I’m not really aware of how much you or the others who’ve posted on this topic know about track and field, or Surin and Bailey in particular, but I’d venture to say it isn’t much. To begin, your assertion that Surin would "tank" to stay fit for the extra cash on the Euro circuit is pretty ignorant, given that the Euro season is all but finished save one or two meets. Besides, a true mercenary would risk everything to get into the 100m final, as that would be the basis on which he or she could command future appearance fees.  Surin was injured, pure and simple. The man is 33 and more susceptible to this kind of thing than he was in Seville last year, or indeed Atlanta or Athens.  The real cash this season was to be had in the games, not on the circuit. Secondly, both you and others seem to have more "respect" for the faceless athletes that toil in obscure sports like Judo et al, given that they’re the ones who eat cheap food and suffer hardships.  Well, let me tell you this: Bailey and Surin did NOT begin their careers with silver or even copper spoons in their mouths.  Both paid their own way to meets, bought their own kit, and held down jobs – does anybody recall the fact that Bailey was a retail stockbroker in a past life? The mere fact that these two can overcome the chronic under funding of individual sports in Canada is enough "Props" for me, and I don’t begrudge them a single penny. Before you dis people who’ve made it off their own backs, with their own sweat, you might want to examine the facts first. MB Before you buy.

Response:

MB, it would be helpful to know who you’re responding to by quoting the paragraphs you have in mind. C – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m not really aware of how much you or the others who’ve posted on this topic know about track and field, or Surin and Bailey in particular, but I’d venture to say it isn’t much. To begin, your assertion that Surin would "tank" to stay fit for the extra cash on the Euro circuit is pretty ignorant, given that the Euro season is all but finished save one or two meets. Besides, a true mercenary would risk everything to get into the 100m final, as that would be the basis on which he or she could command future appearance fees.  Surin was injured, pure and simple. The man is 33 and more susceptible to this kind of thing than he was in Seville last year, or indeed Atlanta or Athens.  The real cash this season was to be had in the games, not on the circuit. Secondly, both you and others seem to have more "respect" for the faceless athletes that toil in obscure sports like Judo et al, given that they’re the ones who eat cheap food and suffer hardships.  Well, let me tell you this: Bailey and Surin did NOT begin their careers with silver or even copper spoons in their mouths.  Both paid their own way to meets, bought their own kit, and held down jobs – does anybody recall the fact that Bailey was a retail stockbroker in a past life? The mere fact that these two can overcome the chronic under funding of individual sports in Canada is enough "Props" for me, and I don’t begrudge them a single penny. Before you dis people who’ve made it off their own backs, with their own sweat, you might want to examine the facts first. MB Before you buy.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Part of the collective hand-wringing going on in Canada right now over the paucity of medals has included a barbecue of Surin and Bailey for the 100m performances, or lack of same.  Essentially they are being accused of tanking. The arrows at Bailey are aimed at the fact that he is probably not recovered from his achilles injury, and is therefore slow, so the cold he had/has (which became a respiratory infection, whatever that is) was a convenient out. For Surin, who quit due to an injury, the speculation is that the injury is probably there, although not too bad, and Surin was unwilling to go all out and risk the lucrative track circuit earnings, post-Olympics. I don’t know about either of these guys’ ailments but I simply didn’t like their comments post-race.  They weren’t even faking saying the right things.  Surin especially, seemed to be glad he wasn’t running and was going to enjoy watching the final.  Good for him. One thing about being Canadian, we don’t have much world sports success (outside of hockey, I suppose), so you appreciate the little you have.  So on the one hand I should be grateful for the international success of Surin and Bailey, and cut them some slack. But I’m far more likely to applaud someone like judo silver medallist Nicholas Gill who has a full time job, no corporate sponsorship now or ever, and has probably eaten Kraft dinner and slept in his car to get by at some point in his career.  He’ll never be a millionaire, and will always toil in obscurity. There’s a lot more courage in Gill’s adventure to win a silver, then there is in Surin or Bailey’s failure to finish.  If I wanted my kids to be like anyone, it would be more Gill than the sprinters right now. —

So, you’d rather your kids grow up to be chumps? George Deliz

Response:

The reality is that it is impossible to both hold down a job (even athletes have to eat) and spend enough time training to not only compete at a top level, but to fulfill ones potential as an athlete. For as long as we ask aspiring world champions to entertain us for free, athletes will have to sleep in their cars and skip meals every now and again. I don’t believe we have the right to ask this of them, and I believe that we all lose when we do. Sponsorship of athletes enables the athlete to concentrate on his or her sport, to reach his (or her) full potential. It buys us maximum entertainment and inspiration, and it aids the sponsor. All emerge as winners – especially the most important people in the equation: the athletes.

This will undoubtedly result in a prolonged debate in this country about how much the government gets involved in contributing taxpayers’ funds to athletics.  That tends to be a tedious debate, but probably required now, given the fact that the medal results have underwhelmed the critics and apparently the fans. — Lorne Sundby

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think there are very few indeed who would not applaud the dedication and sacrifice of the amateur athlete. It is precisely because I so admire this dedication that I would oppose any attempt to return to the day when only amateurs could compete in certain tournaments – and I would therefore also oppose any attempt to set up an amateurs-only competition. The reality is that it is impossible to both hold down a job (even athletes have to eat) and spend enough time training to not only compete at a top level, but to fulfill ones potential as an athlete. For as long as we ask aspiring world champions to entertain us for free, athletes will have to sleep in their cars and skip meals every now and again. I don’t believe we have the right to ask this of them, and I believe that we all lose when we do. Sponsorship of athletes enables the athlete to concentrate on his or her sport, to reach his (or her) full potential. It buys us maximum entertainment and inspiration, and it aids the sponsor. All emerge as winners – especially the most important people in the equation: the athletes.

Oh, I agree with you that it’s almost impossible (if not actually impossible) to compete at world class level in most sports without corporate sponsorship. One could argue that corporate sponsorship has helped to risen the level of world class competition. While you seem to imply sports is a form of entertainment, I would like to entertain the thought that sports is a job. Sports can be a job for many people. In fact, I view my own running as a job–and it’s a job that I enjoy doing. C

Response:

This will undoubtedly result in a prolonged debate in this country about how much the government gets involved in contributing taxpayers’ funds to athletics.  That tends to be a tedious debate, but probably required now, given the fact that the medal results have underwhelmed the critics and apparently the fans. — Lorne Sundby

Just hear from an internet stream on CBC, one of the commentators suggesting why money should go towards falling social services before going for sports. She (sorry, don’t recall her name) said that Canada has one of the worst cases of spousal battery, and Canada doesn’t have a national homeless plan (or something like that…can’t recall exact phrasing). Certainly one thing I’m happy for Canadian society is its social services. Nothing beats having the government give great support to one’s mentally retarded sibling (mine) steady financial and social support! As my friend says, "Socialism rocks!" C

Response:

I fully agree that sport is (and that top-level sport should be) a job. I only meant that athletes provide entertainment for the spectators, and it’s only fair that they get something in return for their sacrifice and dedication. P.S. I, too, am totally against governments sponsoring athletes. That’s a job for the free market – and for the fans.

I’m not exactly sure where I stand in terms of government sponsorship of athletes, but certainly I don’t stand against it. I don’t know why some folks have such a bad feeling over government sponsorship of athletes. Just like the government can and does provide different grants for various kinds of projects, so too should grants be available for athletes. There’s nothing wrong with that. And in any case, just having the option of government sponsor athletes doesn’t mean corporations can’t also sponsor athletes. Government sponsorship of athletes does not preclude corporate sponsorship. Why not have both? C

Response:

This is the classic argument, in Canada anyways.  It was profiled very prominently when the government was offering to bail out the NHL teams. The outcry is slightly less vitriolic when it is Olympic athletes, but the realities remain – we have homeless people, crime, battering relationships, sick people, etc.  The money should go there. (BTW, not that it matters in this thread, but there IS a national homelessness plan, with lots of money – $560M over 5 years.)

Thanks…it was that phrase "national homelessness plan" that the CBC woman was using. I’m pretty ignorant of Canadian politics, being that I only return once a year for a couple of weeks or sometimes 3 months during the summer. I haven’t ever heard of the "national homelessness plan" before though. I agree with you that money should go to providing better social services before athletics. Certainly quality and condition of life is more important than better sports, as much as I like sports myself. C

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However, if Nike does not want to give you money, you go to adidas, Asics, Reebok, etc. Unless you plan on being bought by Qatar you really have no option when it comes to state financing. In addition, I do not think that it is proper for government to spend my hard earned dollars in that way. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I prefer the US system where the athletes receive support directly from Americans or corporations and government assistance might only come in the form of parks and venues that are open to all.  This way the athlete really is not at the mercy of politics or being used as a pawn in some idiotic debate about whether to spend 1.1 or 1.2 gazillion dollars (when a program should not be in existence). Right, as if they’re not in the stranglehold of corporations. Corporations have their own politics too…and we don’t necessarily mean nation-state politics which is what you’re implying. C

Response:

In fact shoe sponsorship deals are not what they once were.  Nike, Reebok, et al realized that by focusing their resources they could do as well if not better in the marketing business.   Athletes may get shoes and apparel (which in the US is taxable) but they are not getting cash the way they once were. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Further to your comments about Gill .. take a look at the two Canadians who won bronze medals in the trampoline. They had to pay their own way to South Africa last September in order to qualify to get into the Olympics! They, Gill and Whitfield … genuine people doing the sport for the pure joy of it. We should celebrate them far more than Bailey and Surin. Well, I’m not so keen on the idea that we should demonise/demonize those who get corporate sponsorship like Bailey and Surin. It also isn’t fair to associate non-corporate sponsored athletes with the idea that they are people who "[do] the sport for the pure joy of it" which implies corporate sponsored athletes do not do their sports for the "pure joy of it." I’m sure many other corporate sponsored athletes do their sports for the joy of it too. Certainly there are many sponsored world class athletes who became full time athletes precisely because they were keen on their sports, enjoyed it, and wanted their sports to occupy them full time. I know of one U.S. Olympics trialist (who unfortunately had to skip the trials because of a calf injury that happened several months before the trials and wasn’t totally in good shape yet) who when she won $3,000 in a regional race exclaimed that that money was a godsend because it would help pay her bills. And she’s sponsored by Asics. In other words: it’s not as if all corporate sponsored folks have it all good and easy. C

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Sports is entertainment.  The athletes who compete are just like singers and actors in that they produce the product.  At some point they love the sport (or art form) but at some level recognize the business side of things. I prefer the US system where the athletes receive support directly from Americans or corporations and government assistance might only come in the form of parks and venues that are open to all.  This way the athlete really is not at the mercy of politics or being used as a pawn in some idiotic debate about whether to spend 1.1 or 1.2 gazillion dollars (when a program should not be in existence). Capitalism rocks!!!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think there are very few indeed who would not applaud the dedication and sacrifice of the amateur athlete. It is precisely because I so admire this dedication that I would oppose any attempt to return to the day when only amateurs could compete in certain tournaments – and I would therefore also oppose any attempt to set up an amateurs-only competition. The reality is that it is impossible to both hold down a job (even athletes have to eat) and spend enough time training to not only compete at a top level, but to fulfill ones potential as an athlete. For as long as we ask aspiring world champions to entertain us for free, athletes will have to sleep in their cars and skip meals every now and again. I don’t believe we have the right to ask this of them, and I believe that we all lose when we do. Sponsorship of athletes enables the athlete to concentrate on his or her sport, to reach his (or her) full potential. It buys us maximum entertainment and inspiration, and it aids the sponsor. All emerge as winners – especially the most important people in the equation: the athletes. Oh, I agree with you that it’s almost impossible (if not actually impossible) to compete at world class level in most sports without corporate sponsorship. One could argue that corporate sponsorship has helped to risen the level of world class competition. While you seem to imply sports is a form of entertainment, I would like to entertain the thought that sports is a job. Sports can be a job for many people. In fact, I view my own running as a job–and it’s a job that I enjoy doing. C

Response:

Part of the collective hand-wringing going on in Canada right now over the paucity of medals has included a barbecue of Surin and Bailey for the 100m performances, or lack of same.  Essentially they are being accused of tanking.   The arrows at Bailey are aimed at the fact that he is probably not recovered from his achilles injury, and is therefore slow, so the cold he had/has (which became a respiratory infection, whatever that is) was a convenient out. For Surin, who quit due to an injury, the speculation is that the injury is probably there, although not too bad, and Surin was unwilling to go all out and risk the lucrative track circuit earnings, post-Olympics. I don’t know about either of these guys’ ailments but I simply didn’t like their comments post-race.  They weren’t even faking saying the right things.  Surin especially, seemed to be glad he wasn’t running and was going to enjoy watching the final.  Good for him. One thing about being Canadian, we don’t have much world sports success (outside of hockey, I suppose), so you appreciate the little you have.  So on the one hand I should be grateful for the international success of Surin and Bailey, and cut them some slack. But I’m far more likely to applaud someone like judo silver medallist Nicholas Gill who has a full time job, no corporate sponsorship now or ever, and has probably eaten Kraft dinner and slept in his car to get by at some point in his career.  He’ll never be a millionaire, and will always toil in obscurity.   There’s a lot more courage in Gill’s adventure to win a silver, then there is in Surin or Bailey’s failure to finish.  If I wanted my kids to be like anyone, it would be more Gill than the sprinters right now. — Lorne Sundby

Response:

I hear the enthusiasm you have about Gill and also applaud true amateur athletes: in my definition, athletes who have no corporate sponsorship. Unfortunately or fortunately, sports has got to the point where in order to be at the world class level, it’s hard not to be corporate sponsored. It’s all about resources, right? I mean, time is a resource. In today’s world, corporate sponsorship is one of the ways to gain more time for athletic training. Perhaps it isn’t entirely impossible for some to become world class without sponsorship, but it’s a mountain climb to the moon. Certainly, it would be great to actually watch a conglomeration of events where actually amateurs do compete.

I think there are very few indeed who would not applaud the dedication and sacrifice of the amateur athlete. It is precisely because I so admire this dedication that I would oppose any attempt to return to the day when only amateurs could compete in certain tournaments – and I would therefore also oppose any attempt to set up an amateurs-only competition. The reality is that it is impossible to both hold down a job (even athletes have to eat) and spend enough time training to not only compete at a top level, but to fulfill ones potential as an athlete. For as long as we ask aspiring world champions to entertain us for free, athletes will have to sleep in their cars and skip meals every now and again. I don’t believe we have the right to ask this of them, and I believe that we all lose when we do. Sponsorship of athletes enables the athlete to concentrate on his or her sport, to reach his (or her) full potential. It buys us maximum entertainment and inspiration, and it aids the sponsor. All emerge as winners – especially the most important people in the equation: the athletes.

Response:

Further to your comments about Gill .. take a look at the two Canadians who won bronze medals in the trampoline. They had to pay their own way to South Africa last September in order to qualify to get into the Olympics!  They, Gill and Whitfield … genuine people doing the sport for the pure joy of it. We should celebrate them far more than Bailey and Surin.

Well, I’m not so keen on the idea that we should demonise/demonize those who get corporate sponsorship like Bailey and Surin. It also isn’t fair to associate non-corporate sponsored athletes with the idea that they are people who "[do] the sport for the pure joy of it" which implies corporate sponsored athletes do not do their sports for the "pure joy of it." I’m sure many other corporate sponsored athletes do their sports for the joy of it too. Certainly there are many sponsored world class athletes who became full time athletes precisely because they were keen on their sports, enjoyed it, and wanted their sports to occupy them full time. I know of one U.S. Olympics trialist (who unfortunately had to skip the trials because of a calf injury that happened several months before the trials and wasn’t totally in good shape yet) who when she won $3,000 in a regional race exclaimed that that money was a godsend because it would help pay her bills. And she’s sponsored by Asics. In other words: it’s not as if all corporate sponsored folks have it all good and easy. C

Response:

But I’m far more likely to applaud someone like judo silver medallist Nicholas Gill who has a full time job, no corporate sponsorship now or ever, and has probably eaten Kraft dinner and slept in his car to get by at some point in his career.  He’ll never be a millionaire, and will always toil in obscurity.

I hear the enthusiasm you have about Gill and also applaud true amateur athletes: in my definition, athletes who have no corporate sponsorship. Unfortunately or fortunately, sports has got to the point where in order to be at the world class level, it’s hard not to be corporate sponsored. It’s all about resources, right? I mean, time is a resource. In today’s world, corporate sponsorship is one of the ways to gain more time for athletic training. Perhaps it isn’t entirely impossible for some to become world class without sponsorship, but it’s a mountain climb to the moon. Certainly, it would be great to actually watch a conglomeration of events where actually amateurs do compete. C

Response:

Further to your comments about Gill .. take a look at the two Canadians who won bronze medals in the trampoline. They had to pay their own way to South Africa last September in order to qualify to get into the Olympics!  They, Gill and Whitfield … genuine people doing the sport for the pure joy of it. We should celebrate them far more than Bailey and Surin.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Part of the collective hand-wringing going on in Canada right now over the paucity of medals has included a barbecue of Surin and Bailey for the 100m performances, or lack of same.  Essentially they are being accused of tanking. The arrows at Bailey are aimed at the fact that he is probably not recovered from his achilles injury, and is therefore slow, so the cold he had/has (which became a respiratory infection, whatever that is) was a convenient out. For Surin, who quit due to an injury, the speculation is that the injury is probably there, although not too bad, and Surin was unwilling to go all out and risk the lucrative track circuit earnings, post-Olympics. I don’t know about either of these guys’ ailments but I simply didn’t like their comments post-race.  They weren’t even faking saying the right things.  Surin especially, seemed to be glad he wasn’t running and was going to enjoy watching the final.  Good for him. One thing about being Canadian, we don’t have much world sports success (outside of hockey, I suppose), so you appreciate the little you have.  So on the one hand I should be grateful for the international success of Surin and Bailey, and cut them some slack. But I’m far more likely to applaud someone like judo silver medallist Nicholas Gill who has a full time job, no corporate sponsorship now or ever, and has probably eaten Kraft dinner and slept in his car to get by at some point in his career.  He’ll never be a millionaire, and will always toil in obscurity. There’s a lot more courage in Gill’s adventure to win a silver, then there is in Surin or Bailey’s failure to finish.  If I wanted my kids to be like anyone, it would be more Gill than the sprinters right now. — Lorne Sundby

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Question:

Dena10, I to used to be pretty scared of open water swims in tris. One year (1996) I worked near a lake and stopped off to swim after work about 3 days a week, even in bad weather and choppy waters. After a few weeks of that routine, I have not had any problems in open water swims for full or quarter distance races. Rock. Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

Response:

I’m actually going through a similar thing myself. I have always been afraid of water, but made a lot of progress last summer. ThenI had a near drowning experience in a lake swim-leg of an Olympic length tri. Since then I’ve been fairly freaked about open water. Surf made me nervous before, but now it’s downright excruciating to go in. At any rate, I’d also be interested in hearing what others have done, or at least hearing some "me toos" so I don’t feel like such a yutz. Does anyone know of anyone who has overcome a strong fear of open water swimming and gone on to complete an Ironman or other similar event? Dena, I have gone through exactly what you describe. I will send you an E-mail.               Steve Fredericks               Oceanside, CA

– Amy Snyder Hale, Dept of Geology & Planetary Science "When planets go around an around in circles,

Response:

You are not alone. I also am not fond of open water swims. For me to stay relaxed I need to get in the water early and float on my back for a few minutes after submerging my face in the water. Once I figured that out I was ok. I have since done Kona in 97 & IM CAL this year. The key is to stay relaxed, easier said than done. But it works for me.

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I have had the same problem and, for what it’s worth, know that you CAN get over this.  The two things that have helped me are 1) practicing in open water whenever you can.  I know this is easier said than done, but doing 3-4 open water swims earlier this year really helped me through the races. 2) make sure you get a sufficient warm up.  Once the race started, my heart would start pounding and I’d feel out of breath.  Getting in a good warm up and getting my heart rate up before the race really seemed to minimize this. And finally, there’s nothing wrong with taking a quick break, treading water and getting your confidence back.  Sacrificing 10-20 seconds early in the race is worth it if it makes you feel more comfortable. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You are not alone. I also am not fond of open water swims. For me to stay relaxed I need to get in the water early and float on my back for a few minutes after submerging my face in the water. Once I figured that out I was ok. I have since done Kona in 97 & IM CAL this year. The key is to stay relaxed, easier said than done. But it works for me.

Response:

I have conquered my fear of the open water by attacking it head on.  I recently completed a  naui course in scuba diving   Knowing whats under the water,and feeling comfortable about it helps alot.

Response:

Does anyone know of anyone who has overcome a strong fear of open water swimming and gone on to complete an Ironman or other similar event? That’s what I’m attempting to do and was just wondering if anyone out there has gone through the same struggle. Thanks in advance.

Response:

Does anyone know of anyone who has overcome a strong fear of open water swimming and gone on to complete an Ironman or other similar event?

Dena, I have gone through exactly what you describe. I will send you an E-mail.                Steve Fredericks                Oceanside, CA

Response:

| Does anyone know of anyone who has overcome a strong fear of open water | swimming and gone on to complete an Ironman or other similar event? Me. I didn’t learn to swim ’till I was 28 and had to overcome a phobia of water where I was out of my depth. I got special help and learned to swim. After that there was the problem of open water. I still hate deep clear water where you can see a long way down, unless I’m diving! In races where the water is clear I look straight ahead or keep my eyes shut under water, seriously. It’s easier when there are others around me and about 2,000% easier when I have a wetsuit on as I know I can’t sink. In my first try at an OD tri I panicked and was pulled from the water after 150m. Two years later I did 1:06 for an IM swim and loved it. Phil

| Does anyone know of anyone who has overcome a strong fear of open water | swimming and gone on to complete an Ironman or other similar event? | | That’s what I’m attempting to do and was just wondering if anyone out there has | gone through the same struggle. | | Thanks in advance.

Response:

It seems I have something in common with that Phil Squire pussy after all.

but it isn’t class. Before you buy.

Response:

Does anyone know of anyone who has overcome a strong fear of open water swimming and gone on to complete an Ironman or other similar event?

Yes and no. I never really learned to swim as a kid, (being too thin to float easily), and have always been afraid of water over my head . . . until this year. I just completed my first 1/2IM this year, and took up tri last year, and although I’m still a horrible swimmer, I’ve lost that fear of the water. It certainly can be done. TriathRon the barge-like Before you buy.

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You bet! Until I was 30 I had never swam more than a lap or two. I was in the water all of the time but never far from something to hang on to, a boat/float/ski/lifevest/shorline/etc. I decided I wanted to be a triathlete and found myself standing at the shoreline of my first triathlon absolutely convinced I was going to drown. I swam the mile in 50 some minutes, and now can cover that distance in less than half that time, 5 years later. Last year I did my first Ironman, and while I was no longer afraid of open water, that mass start had me shaking in my boots until 30 seconds after the starting gun went off. It seems I have something in common with that Phil Squire pussy after all. Jack Does anyone know of anyone who has overcome a strong fear of open water swimming and gone on to complete an Ironman or other similar event? That’s what I’m attempting to do and was just wondering if anyone out there has gone through the same struggle. Thanks in advance.

Before you buy.

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How many of us can say we have become actively involved in the politics of USAT, I presume it’s not many.  My position as USAT-NE board member was appointed, yes I said appointed, because the board positions were being balloted uncontested,  ( that means no one else wanted the job) in short no one else wanted to be involved or do the necessary work.  You can not make a difference in policy or opinion by standing outside, and yelling in the window, YOU MUST COME IN THE HOUSE FIRST.

Thanks for reading this thread and responding. Consider this RST forum as "IN THE HOUSE". We cannot all run for these postions, nor do many of us want to. If someone chooses to voice an opinion, is it any less for the fact that they are not running for a position? There are those that have/want positions, but they are nothing without a constituency. A governing body is nothing without the people. So the common participants are an integral part of any organization. Why do they perhaps not vote? Well, many of them do, in one of the most significant ways. They vote with their wallet. If the organization does not serve the (silent) members they will not open their wallets. Look at stats for USAT membership. Can anything be gleaned from this. Is membership up? Is it up as a function of annual. or of one day licenses? Do the membership numbers correlate with the total numbers of triathletes at triathlons, or is it clouded by one time participants? What is the trend. If USAT memebrship was NOT mandatory, where would USAT be, and why? Mandaory membership is NOT indicative of support. Not for USAT, or USCF, or NORBA, etc. It is almost a function of financial coercion. After all, we have NO choice if we want to race. Thanks for listening Dave, Ken

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Ken,         Thank you for your note, and words of encouragement regarding your USAT membership.  I have now and continue to have my "ear to the ground" in this forum the RST News Group, it is important to me to know the opinions of the community.           As for your comment that USAT does not guarantee safe races, I agree with you that there are many talented RDs who are to be commended for their efforts and safety records, they are the real pros who have helped the sport with its phenomenal growth.   The growth of triathlon over the last few years has introduced many new races and race directors.  These race directors are ever increasingly turning to USAT for education, advice, and yes the different points of view that I mentioned.  Your money is paying for a certain level of safety in these venues, although not really offering you any guarantee of safety.   USAT officials all share the same rule book and hopefully the same interpretations, but the same point of view?  Although you and I agree with, and follow the same rules in competition, I whole heartedly doubt we or anyone else shares the same point of view, and to me this is a good thing.  Different ideas create different solutions.         I have read the posts in this thread, I am surprised to hear the comments have reverted to the ITU drafting debate.  I had hoped the International Triathlon Union issue had been accepted by the membership as it has been by the executive committee.  International means world wide, we can not ignore the opinions of the world triathlon community, or take our collective gear and go home because we were out voted on certain issues.         Even though I am in agreement with the anti-drafting sentiment ( I will not race a drafting race)  my opinion on it is one of acceptance, I believe that the basic problem is one of name.  We obviously believe that drafting races are not triathlon, and do not conform to the one race, one man triathlon competition that has made this such a great sport.  Maybe we need a different designation (team triathlon?) that will tell the athletes, and the world that they are not draft free races.  We cannot reject an idea simply because it does not conform to our beliefs, should we reject duathlon because there’s no swim?(Team triathlon is very close to what we do, as is duathlon)  Do you play baseball, basketball, or ice hockey or do you reject them because they are not what you believe triathlon should be?         I don’t believe there is a small but pesky group of age groupers who keep us from reverting to the ITU format.  The sentiment I receive overwhelmingly from the membership is one of non conformation.  The problem is in the non participation of the membership, and not being vocal enough.  How many of us can say we have become actively involved in the politics of USAT, I presume it’s not many.  My position as USAT-NE board member was appointed, yes I said appointed, because the board positions were being balloted uncontested,  ( that means no one else wanted the job) in short no one else wanted to be involved or do the necessary work.  You can not make a difference in policy or opinion by standing outside, and yelling in the window, YOU MUST COME IN THE HOUSE FIRST. So as for the threads idea of revolution, do you really want to be involved in revolution or do you want one to occur so you can stand back and watch.         If anything has been acomplished  with this post I certainly hope it has at least been a   reassurance to  the USAT-NE membership that there is at least one board member interested  enough in what you think to express opinions, and reply to some of your concerns.  My modem is always open for dialogue. Is it peek or peak? One is a pinnacle, one is a sneaky look at your sister. Sincerly, and thanks for your ear. Dave McCluskey USAT-NE  Connecticut No matter what you do tri hard.

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Hi there! Just wondering if anyone here has trained for and done well in the marathon on 4 runs a week.  The reason I ask is that I’m presently training for my 3rd marathon and hoping to PB.  Secretly, I’d like to go from a 4:10 (MCM-Oct/97) to ~3:50 (Vancouver-May/98).  According to my 10K times, I should be able to do better than 4:10 (10K PB 47:48). The manager at the health club where I teach aerobics has helped me set up a new training schedule and cut down my running time quite a bit.  (I should note that she is a World Cup cyclist and competitive triathlete) With this new schedule, I’ll be running 4 times (2 short/fast (Tue./Sat.), 1 mid-length (Wed.) and 1 long (Sun.)), swimming 40-45 minutes (Mon., Tues., Thurs.), teaching 1-2 aerobic classes/week and spinning (cycling class) 1-2 week.  I will be taking Fridays completely off. The reason I wanted to change my schedule was that I found myself to be always tired.  I was working out every day and already exhausted in week 3 of a 16-week training program.  I should also note that after the marathon I’m planning on trying triathlons so the swimming and cycling as cross-training will hopefully help. If anyone has ever trained for a marathon this way, I would love to hear about it. Thanks, Ann

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I think that many of us know that feeling of getting into a new training plan only to discover that we may not be prepared for that next level of commitment.  Last year I discovered that it was difficult to train high mileage for a marathon and also put in the quality time in the pool and on the bike without feeling tired all the time.  My workouts became an endless stream instead of something to look forward to.  You can’t improve without rest. Now I’m still training for a marathon this year in addition to the triathlons but I break up the year into different training goals. From fall to late Dec I try to establish a good base for swim, bike and run. Jan and Feb I concentrate on swimming and running, with 3 workouts in the pool and only 4 running workouts per week.  One difference you may want to add to your workout schedule is taking the day off after your long runs on Sunday.  As the mileage adds up, your body will thank you for taking a break the next day. Jeff Baltimore, MD

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Well ,to your 4 day a week question,yes and no.Yes ,I am training primarly that way,but no I haven’t ran the marathon yet.We are doing Tybee island marathon on Feb. 7.So I will be able to do a race report about it when we get back.I have pace.wed-bike,Thur-run hills–8Mi.,Fri. bike intervals on compu-t and short recovery run after work,Sat.-off,Sun. long run.So we’ll see how the race goes.I’ve did other marathons with more running but I have been recovering with more off days(?)We’ll see.Good luck on your marathon,I’ll post on how Tybee goes.My pr is 3:37,I hope to go under 3:30. Keep your fingers crossed for us.My wife is running it too(she hopes to go under 3:40,which will qualify her for Boston).                     Randy+Sue   GFT 98!!

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi there! Just wondering if anyone here has trained for and done well in the marathon on 4 runs a week.  The reason I ask is that I’m presently training for my 3rd marathon and hoping to PB.  Secretly, I’d like to go from a 4:10 (MCM-Oct/97) to ~3:50 (Vancouver-May/98).  According to my 10K times, I should be able to do better than 4:10 (10K PB 47:48). The manager at the health club where I teach aerobics has helped me set up a new training schedule and cut down my running time quite a bit.  (I should note that she is a World Cup cyclist and competitive triathlete) With this new schedule, I’ll be running 4 times (2 short/fast (Tue./Sat.), 1 mid-length (Wed.) and 1 long (Sun.)), swimming 40-45 minutes (Mon., Tues., Thurs.), teaching 1-2 aerobic classes/week and spinning (cycling class) 1-2 week.  I will be taking Fridays completely off. The reason I wanted to change my schedule was that I found myself to be always tired.  I was working out every day and already exhausted in week 3 of a 16-week training program.  I should also note that after the marathon I’m planning on trying triathlons so the swimming and cycling as cross-training will hopefully help. If anyone has ever trained for a marathon this way, I would love to hear about it. Thanks, Ann

Ann! I would say certainly can do a PR on 4 days a week.  I think that a 4 day/wk schd. is really better.  Just be sure your fast runs are fast. They can be short. And your long runs are long (ie work up to better than 20 mi a couple of times before your race).  I think this sort of schd. lets you recover which will better let you improve. Larry

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Thanks Larry! It’s so nice to be getting some positive feedback…. I must admit that I find it kind of scary to go from 5-6 runs down to 4 but I was just so exhausted all the time trying to run, swim, spin, teach aerobics, work, etc., etc,. etc. I’m starting on the schedule this week.  Actually just swam today and tomorrow (Tue.) will swim in the morning and go for a fast 8K run after work.  With a ~46:?? 10K, I really hope to bring my marathon to 3:50 from 4:10 on this training program. Thanks again Ann D. Aylmer Quebec – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ann! I would say certainly can do a PR on 4 days a week.  I think that a 4 day/wk schd. is really better.  Just be sure your fast runs are fast. They can be short. And your long runs are long (ie work up to better than 20 mi a couple of times before your race).  I think this sort of schd. lets you recover which will better let you improve. Larry

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I trained for my last marathon with about four days of training. I’m sorta injury prone so rest is a must. I would run 10 miles on wednesday and then one weekend run a 20 mile run and then the next weekend do a 15 mile run. So basically it was two very good workouts per week with the rest of the days just keeping the legs loose. Results 3:36 in Vulcan Marathon. Not record speed, but not too bad either!

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Just wondering if anyone here has trained for and done well in the marathon on 4 runs a week.

  [snip] Looks like a perfectly reasonable schedule to me. The manager at your health club might be a World Cup cyclist, but that doesn’t *necessarily* mean she’s best placed to offer training advice. But if she’s offered this as a tenatative plan, and is ready to help you update your regime as necessary, you should be fine. Always keep your training plans flexible. The question of no-running v. easy-running days is something where each individual must find the best play off. With your old schedule leaving you permanently tired, a reduction to 4 running days might be perfect, especially when combined with your extensive cross-training. Your marathon training wants to be oriented around that weekly long run. It should be the focal point, fit everything else in around that. Have you established an appropriate pace/HR for your long run? The other thing you’ll need to develop is the ability to hold (3:50/42.2) 5:25 /km (8:45 /mile) for nearly 4 hours without your legs turning to jelly after 30km. The obvious answer might be long training runs at marathon race pace. The downside is that you can end up tearing yourself down more than building up. A few judiciously placed races (10km, HMara) as part of your marathon build-up would be appropriate for an experienced runner.   Miles — Cut the 0_fin~SPAM_  to email back to me

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Your marathon training wants to be oriented around that weekly long run. It should be the focal point, fit everything else in around that. Have you established an appropriate pace/HR for your long run?

Although I run with a HR monitor, I’m still unsure as to what my true max is.  This summer I was running 10Ks with an avg HR of 192 so I assume my max is pretty high.  As an example, I ran my long run this Sunday with a pretty fast group (for me) and we did the run 10 minutes / walk 1 and my avg HR was 171.  When I did my short fast run on Saturday my avg HR was 177.  There doesn’t seem to be that much of a difference between the two so maybe I’m running too fast on my long run.  Admittedly, I ran with a group that’s training for a 3:30 marathon and my best is 4:10.  I’d be thrilled to run a 3:40 as that would qualify me for Boston… Thanks for the advice. Ann D. Aylmer Quebec

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Your marathon training wants to be oriented around that weekly long run. It should be the focal point, fit everything else in around that. Have you established an appropriate pace/HR for your long run? Although I run with a HR monitor, I’m still unsure as to what my true max is.  This summer I was running 10Ks with an avg HR of 192 so I assume my max is pretty high.  As an example, I ran my long run this Sunday with a pretty fast group (for me) and we did the run 10 minutes / walk 1 and my avg HR was 171.  When I did my short fast run on Saturday my avg HR was 177.  There doesn’t seem to be that much of a difference between the two so maybe I’m running too fast on my long run.  Admittedly, I ran with a group that’s training for a 3:30 marathon and my best is 4:10.  I’d be thrilled to run a 3:40 as that would qualify me for Boston…

Be careful doing your long run with the 3:30 crowd if you suspect your current ability is still around the 4:10 mark. Choosing an appropriate LSD pace can vary due to the broad range of running abilites. The recommendation that I like (and use) is 10km race pace + 90-120s /mile (Glover’s "New Competitive Distance Runner"). Using an HRM, one possibility, short of a full blown GXT, is to go for a run at your 10km race pace + 120s, then use that HR as your baseline for LSD. The big advantage here is that you’ve tailored your training against your PERSONAL current abilities. Well, ok, so the 90-120s is generalised, but there you go. Another option is to use a generalised % of MHR or Karnoven range. 70-75% is often suggested. But this really is a "one size fits all" approach, and what you really want to be doing is gearing your training run to YOUR current AT. But try it out, maybe it’ll ‘feel’ right. As a further complication, I see you’re including walk breaks into your long runs. Not sure how that affects these suggestions.   Miles — Cut the 0_fin~SPAM_  to email back to me

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Looking to start national club system with one in each Tri-Fed region (12). Need help locating contacts in big corporations to find sponsor. Wouldn’t it be nice to have a Hewlett Packard (HP) Boulder or San Diego that had club uniforms, travel money, and race performance cash bonuses? Francisco, CA 94118 or call (415) 379-9367. (no email account)

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Eric I have just started developing a National Triathlon Club Directory.  I’ve had a good deal of response from r.s.t., and am just now seeing my letter regarding the directory in a few publications.  I hope to have a significant list put together by the end of summer.  If you or anyone else would like to send info about any tri-clubs that you are aware of, please e-mail, or snail mail to Austin Triathletes, 1806A Ford St., Austin, TX 78704. Thanks Rick Margiotta

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Kind of off your subject but I had to comment on the pre- and post- race meals at Gulf Coast.  How would like to get Mrs. T’s 2 nights in a row? We had ‘em at Gulf Coast.  OK the first night but when they appeared the night after the race, I was a little miffed.  Oh well, my taste buds were still slightly anesthestized from the free Bud Light available all afternoon. Suzanne Roat

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Since the energy that we put into our training comes directly from our diet, I was wondering what all you folks eat… I mean on  a regular basis.. It used to be pasta pasta pasta.. But I’ve heard tons that you should not eat too many carbohydrates since after a limit, they are converted to fat, anyhow… questions: 1. How much carbos do ya’all eat 2. How much protiens do ya eat 3. How much FAT SHOULD YOU EAT??  Should we avoid at all costs the tempting items such as ice cream, chocolate, etc? any words would be appreciated… ..Rob Connelly —           __o     o     |  Rob Connelly, Cal Poly, San Luis Obispo         _ <_    .(    |  CP Academic Computing Services    `^o_  (_)/(_)    <    |  CP Triathlon Club, SLO Roadrunners          SWIM   BIKE     RUN    |  http://www.calpoly.edu/~rconnell

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  Does inline skating help running at all?   Skating, be it in-line or plain ol’ rollers, increases your aerobic fitness and leg strength. One data point:- Miles Stewart, an Australian triathlete champion, almost lived on skates (don’t know whether they were rollers or in-lines) as an adolescent.  He has a nasty habit of grabbing championship titles from "name-brand" athletes. Skating is a good way to condition your legs without the shock on the system which running inflicts.  But, if running is what you’re after – run… — Paul Big Ears Menon Computer Science, Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology 124 La Trobe Street, Melbourne, Victoria 3001, Australia Ph: +61 3 660 3209/2348 Fx: +61 3 662 1617 ICBM: lat 37^ 50′ S long 145^ 0′ E WWW: http://www.cs.rmit.edu.au/people/TSG/pnm.html

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: Does inline skating help running at all? : Lisa It certainly helps my running. When I’m running the bike path along the beach and a gal wearing thongs and inline skates passes me, I certainly start running faster. Sure hope I don’t trip and break something. (sippinSamuelAdamsandtriningforNYCMinLongBeachCaliforniawheretheearth movesundermyfeet)

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Does inline skating help running at all? Lisa

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In-line skating is more akin to the cycling action than running but it’s a good all round leg conditioner – helping muscle balance etc – can’t be bad. It’s also a good way to get an aerobic workout without the hammering that running gives your legs so your cardio-vascular system gets a tuning while your legs get it a bit easier. in-line skating gets an article in this months ‘Triathlete’ magazine – could be worth a look.

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  I just had a conversation with Jean (Race Director) at the   Ironman Canada office and thought I would share some   information with any of you *netters* out there that are   considering doing this race next year.  It will still be   a mostly first come first served type of format, "HOWEVER",   she is positive that they will be full by February.   So if you want to take part, IMHO, in the best organized   Triathlon (including Hawaii!) out there, you may want to   Ironman Canada Race Society   522 Dawson Avenue   Penticton, British Columbia   Canada  V2A 3N8   PHONE: 604-490-8787     FAX: 604-490-8788   Good winter training to ya’ eh!   Curt Simkins   Hewlett-Packard   McMinnville, Oregon

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When is the darn thing? Tony

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| | When is the darn thing? | | Tony    It’s always been the last Sunday in August.  Sooooooooo    August 28, 1994    Curt

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