Question:

National Capital Race Weekend 5K Race Ottawa, Canada May 29, 2004 It was almost five years ago exactly that I started running. And in this race I set a new PR in the 5k, after about 3 years of struggling to move beyond a plateau. And it wasn

Question:

 Haven’t done the arithmetic, but I think this month will be my first totalling 100 miles since getting sick last fall.  Yet another landmark.  I’ll soon be running out of such milestones and get back to the more usual marking of progress.  (I hope, knock wood, …)

Here’s hoping. However it’s still been nice to see these milestones fall by the wayside. It really does sound like you’ve turned the situation into a chance to learn. Good on ya and I hope I can do the same if I’m given the "opportunity."  110-120 minutes today.  Fingers crossed as this will be my first long hot run (temps already about 80 F, last week was mid 60’s).

Layne The rec.running report archives may be found at http://kinder.cis.unf.edu/rec.running

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Unfortunately, blood tests show way below-norm serum iron, below-norm magnesium, very low potassium, and raging lymphocytes. On the bright side, my pee was so clear I could put goldfish in it. Should find out tomorrow what’s up with me. The pox probably. If there’s no improvement by the middle of next week, I may just have to drop out and learn to swim properly instead.

That is weird (the blood workup, not learning to swim). In my journey to try every class of meds known to humanity, I’ve had a couple that did that to my blood – except for the lymphocytes. I hope it’s just a 24-hour bug. Good luck, Layne The rec.running report archives may be found at http://kinder.cis.unf.edu/rec.running

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Goals… harumphhh. 240km 3-day race on 11-13 July, to prepare for Bastille day on the 14th Unfortunately, blood tests show way below-norm serum iron, below-norm magnesium, very low potassium, and raging lymphocytes. On the bright side, my pee was so clear I could put goldfish in it. Should find out tomorrow what’s up with me. The pox probably. If there’s no improvement by the middle of next week, I may just have to drop out and learn to swim properly instead. To cap it all, I just did my back a nasty, on Saturday, moving a 1/2 tonne (felt like) wardrobe. Wifey had lost a key behind it (threw it deliberately I suspect, in her continued efforts to remove all the pleasure I get from running). Week’s "running" Tue  0:56  10k   6mi   No trace of Sunday’s marathon. Good sign. Wed  0:46   8k   5mi   Hunky dory. Tot  1:42  18 km   11 miles

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Greetings, rec.runners! Please tell us about your training week and goals.

Goals are MCM in October There’s a 10 miler this week I’d like to do well in. I was on travel to Boulder Colorado this week. Just 5000′ higher than home. It matters. Monday  8 miles including 20 minutes of threshold Tuesday 3 miles easy on the hotel treadmill, late at night Wednesday 3 miles easy on the treadmill at 5 am, then 3 miles on trails in the hills above Boulder at 5pm, then 4 miles along a trail by a creek that I saw on the drive home. Thursday 4 miles easy on paved "trails" around the hotel at 5 am Friday 8 miles including 4×400m and 10 x200m on the treadmill Saturday 9 miles easy. Sunday DNR Total weekly miles 40, which is pretty good considering the travel. -JimV

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Greetings, rec.runners! Please tell us about your training week and goals. cheers, David (in Hamilton, ON) www.allfalldown.org (my band/photo website)

Goals: Survive Arizona Summer and keep the mileage base up for        a September Marathon. First race will be Saguaro Nat’l        Park 8-miler Labor Day. Mon: Rest Day Tue: 6.3 mi @ 9:00 pace. 95F and breezy. Stepped on a cactus needle      that went all the way through the ball of my shoes! Youch!      Got that puppy out of there asap. Wed: Treadmill at work. 3 Intervals of 4 mins at +3 incline tempo      pace, 1 min recovery at 0 incline, 1 minute at tempo -15 sec      supposed to be -1 incline but this treadmill can’t, 1 min      recovery at 0 incline. And of course warmup and cooldown.      Also did ab work on exercise ball and weight workout. Thurs: 5.45 mi at 9:46 pace. Warm and humid today. Nice relaxing      run. Fri: Rest Day Sat: 17.9 mi at 9:50pace. Mid 70’s at start, 96F at finsih. Had a      tough time. Nearly bonked at the end. I felt hungry the whole      way despite having eaten all the usual. Last four miles were      tough, starting to get woozy and leaden. Wasn’t sure at first      whether it was glycogen depletion or the beginnings of heat      exhaustion, but after getting back and getting some gatorade      in me I suddenly felt much better. Maybe next time I’ll take      some extra gels (we only had three left). Felt fine as soon      as I had lunch, so I’m pretty sure I just didn’t have enough      calories in the system. (I did have water with me, btw). And      next time start a little earlier with the humidity starting      to appear. Started at 6:20, next week shoot for 5:30! Total: 33.15 miles this week Teresa in AZ

Response:

 Greetings, rec.runners! Please tell us about your training week and goals.

<< Sun – 3 Miles, 26:16 Mon – DNR Tue – 3.4 miles, 30:36 Wed – 3 miles, 24:14 Thu – 5.3 miles, 48:00 Fri – DNR Sat – Buzzard’s Roost 10K, 53:59      THe Buzzard’s Roost 10K in Arcadia, IN, is one of those loop courses that seems to have a lot more uphill than downhill.  The race is held in the evening and the weather wasn’t too bad – a little warm but not overly humid.  I went out too fast and died on the hills in the back half of the race. Mike

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Goal: Berlin Marathon 9/28 Wed: DNR Fri: DNR (I can feel my heel) Sat: 3 brisk (feeling very weak) Sun: 4 easy (down with a stomach flu) Total: 27 miles. I did reach my planned mileage but now I’m smoked. I’m glad if I survive those next, last two weeks of the semester. A couple of friends are dropping out because they can’t take the pressure. It feels vaguely pathological to train for my first marathon on top of that. But, I’ll see how it goes. cheers, nina

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Mon- 12 easy 6:40 pace Tues-AM 7 easy 6:52 pace; PM 2.25 warmup then 5X1200m 3:55-3:47-3:46-3:44-3:42.   2min/400jog recovery.  Then about 4 mile cooldown for 11 total PM miles. Wed- 14 moderate 6:40 pace…only hard due to 92F heat. Thurs- AM 7 easy 6:46 pace; PM, 3 mile warmup then 10X90secON/90secOFF.  ON   pace 5:20, OFF pace 6:40.  Withered in humid heat…  Cooldown for 11. Fri-AM 9 easy 6:52 pace; PM 8.5 easy 6:30 pace. Sat-2 mile warmup then 4 mile time trial (SUCKED) 21:18.  Tried to do it before   heat hit, skipped breakfast and paid for it.  Ran easy 25 min, then 6X1minON   1:30OFF.  ON pace 1:10 400m pace.  Ran these pretty good.  Then 1.5 mile   cooldown for 13.5 miles. Sun-18 miles easy sub-6:40 avg, a lot of 6:20s in the middle and sub-6 on final   one. Total for week: 111 miles Andy Hass

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Congrats on the sub-17 man! Andy Hass – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Goals (weather permitting): 1) Sub 80sec/lap 5000m (16:40) by the end of the track season. 2) Sub 1:17 half-marathon in September or October. Successfully achieved my goal of a sub 17 minute 5k on Saturday. Might do a local 10k race on Wednesday.  It’s a slow course so I don’t have any time goals. Monday: pm) Bike – 16.02, v.hilly – easy/medium Tuesday: pm) 4.95 miles in total. 12 x 200m w/ 200m jog rec – hard    (first 11 in 30 secs, last effort in 29 secs) Wednesday: Rest Thursday: pm) 5.5 miles, fartlek – medium/hard Friday: Rest Saturday: pm) 5000m track race, 16:55, 2nd place. Sunday: pm) 6.4 miles – easy Total run: ~22 miles Total bike: 16.02 miles — Brian Wakem

Response:

Goals (weather permitting): 1) Sub 80sec/lap 5000m (16:40) by the end of the track season. 2) Sub 1:17 half-marathon in September or October. Successfully achieved my goal of a sub 17 minute 5k on Saturday. Might do a local 10k race on Wednesday.  It’s a slow course so I don’t have any time goals. Monday: pm) Bike – 16.02, v.hilly – easy/medium Tuesday: pm) 4.95 miles in total. 12 x 200m w/ 200m jog rec – hard    (first 11 in 30 secs, last effort in 29 secs) Wednesday: Rest Thursday: pm) 5.5 miles, fartlek – medium/hard Friday: Rest Saturday: pm) 5000m track race, 16:55, 2nd place. Sunday: pm) 6.4 miles – easy Total run: ~22 miles Total bike: 16.02 miles — Brian Wakem

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OK Guess I’ll report with the really fast runners too. So was it hot enough for you this week Doug?

Yup, went out Wednesday at 1pm and ran my 5 mile 2,500 foot hill and back – 2 hours.  ’Twas about 90+ degrees and I was rather salty when I finished. One more 4 1/2 hour run tomorrow( one trip running and one trip  hiking) then taper time for a few weeks.  I’ll then hope for cool weather so I don’t have to test my heat acclimation. — Caveat Lector "the further you go outside, the further you go inside" – B. McKibben Doug Freese

Response:

Greetings, rec.runners! Please tell us about your training week and goals.

Goals:   7/9   800m WR (second attempt); need 1:56.19   7/12 Bastile Day 5K     7/26 100m   7/8-9 USATF Masters Championships 100m (maybe)   10/4  mile   10/19 800 (attempt #3??) Sunday:        weights Monday:        3 X 3 X 60 (6.8 avg) rest 3min/7min Tuesday:       off Wednesday:  off Friday:          rest Saturday:      800 meters 1:56.77 (Starting next week, I’ll be doing 100m sprint specific stuff, following advice in John Smith’s seminars for coaches.  This will be the case through mid/late August, with the exception of the 5K on 7/12.)  Next week track workouts will be: Wednesday  starts Friday:         3 X 3 X 60 @ 100%, rest 3 min/7 min This week’s topic for me is how to blow a race even if your training is going well… My wife has joint custody of two boys, and on friday night arrived home from delivering the boys to their natural father at 11:30 PM and kept me up/awake until 1:45 AM.  The next morning I didn’t even know if I would even do the race (too tired), though I eventually did, but I got there too late to do a normal warmup (just a 2 lap jog, then race a couple of minutes later).  On top of that, the temperature was much warmer than expected, with temp at trackside probably close to 90F (glad it was "only" 800 meters). The above paragraph is highly recommended to anyone who does not want to have to worry about having to report PRs. After today (Sunday) I will be gone for 2 weeks, taking the kids to their grandparents.  I will likely be racing in the Club Northwest meet on 7/9 in Seattle, but will not be posting online until at least 7/13. BTW David, how is YOUR training going? Lyndon "Speed Kills…It kills those that don’t have it!"  –US Olympic Track Coach Brooks Johnson

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7/6/2003? I know we’re not all in the same time zone but who is 7 days ahead of EST??

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Greetings, rec.runners! Please tell us about your training week and goals. cheers, — David (in Hamilton, ON) www.allfalldown.org (my band/photo website)

Response:

7/6/2003? I know we’re not all in the same time zone but who is 7 days ahead of EST??

A really fast runner? — Caveat Lector "the further you go outside, the further you go inside" – B. McKibben Doug Freese

Response:

OK Guess I’ll report with the really fast runners too. So was it hot enough for you this week Doug? Goals sub 1:12 at Adirondack 10 miler    7/6 sub 5:50 mile                                7/8 break my current 5k PR (19:35) on 7/26 sub 43 minute 10k                      8/9 Bridge of Flowers Run a sub 3:20 Marathon in the fall, Clarence De Mar 9/28 or Wineglass 10/5 sub 1:33 half on 10/19 Finish NYC Marathon in under 4:00 get weight to under 170 (175) Monday              6 easy rest 2.5 mi.  wu/cd Wednesday       5 easy Thursday            7.5 tempo  Very Hot and Humid  Friday             14 miles on the bike Hot and Humid  Saturday          6.5 easy  Sunday           16.5  easy about  54  miles total "

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 7/6/2003? I know we’re not all in the same time zone but who is 7 days ahead of EST?? A really fast runner? — Caveat Lector "the further you go outside, the further you go inside" – B. McKibben Doug Freese

Response:

Greetings, rec.runners! Please tell us about your training week and goals.

Goal: Rebuild base, aiming towards September 1 10 miler and October 26th 26.2 miler Sun: 120 minutes Mon: off Tue: 1 mile warmup, 30 minutes racewalking lesson Wed: off Thu: 30 minutes treadmill, 30 minutes stationary bike, 15 minutes      treadmill.  The running stretches were each pace-progressive,      ending up with a pace faster than I currently expect to hold      for marathon distance. Fri: off Sat: 30 minutes easy   I’m still working on getting a ‘good’ week together.  This week, I think I’ve found the right place to put my second longest day. I had thought that Wednesday, after an easy Tuesday, would work. But it looks like Thursday is the much better place.  The faster paces on parts of Thursday are suggesting to me that I should relax a bit on Sunday about my long run pace, and accept a bit more speed. I’m trying to keep slower than my conservative goal marathon pace (per my advice to Mr. Burke), but as there are much faster, credible, marathon paces, I may allow the long run pace to head closer to conservative goal marathon pace.   Haven’t done the arithmetic, but I think this month will be my first totalling 100 miles since getting sick last fall.  Yet another landmark.  I’ll soon be running out of such milestones and get back to the more usual marking of progress.  (I hope, knock wood, …)   110-120 minutes today.  Fingers crossed as this will be my first long hot run (temps already about 80 F, last week was mid 60’s). — Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links. Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences

Response:

Greetings, rec.runners! Please tell us about your training week and goals. cheers,

Goal is still the MCM. Training going well although ankles are a little sore after these long runs. Sunday: 13 miles 1:52:15 8:38/mile Monday: DNR A little stiff from yesterday Tuesday: 8 miles on boardwalk at Ocean Maryland 1:02:15 7:47/mile reps. 5 min jog between sets. 1 mile cooldown. 6 miles. This workout was done on a TM as it’s pretty hot outside. Thursday: DNR Friday: 7 miles 54:33 7:48/mile Saturday: DNR Total for week: 34 miles Doug Burke

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you bet I did – I couldn’t wait to get home and taste them! mind you I had to stand in the saddle quite a lot of the way as much of the home run was on dirt tracks and forest trails J

fri gym, cycle 24 k to obtain beer from local micro brewery (great stuff) My kinda workout. Er, you did do high rpms, right? Layne The rec.running report archives may be found at

http://kinder.cis.unf.edu/rec.running – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

fri gym, cycle 24 k to obtain beer from local micro brewery (great stuff)

My kinda workout. Er, you did do high rpms, right? Layne The rec.running report archives may be found at http://kinder.cis.unf.edu/rec.running

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in 40 mins with wife

Is 40 minutes the best you can do? Geez man, I spend that long in her mouth, nevermind foreply, or intercourse. Chiropractors rock man! Bill R.

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doesn’t do to spoil ‘em, now, does it?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – in 40 mins with wife Is 40 minutes the best you can do? Geez man, I spend that long in her mouth, nevermind foreply, or intercourse. Chiropractors rock man! Bill R.

Response:

doesn’t do to spoil ‘em, now, does it?

LMAO! No, I guess not. Chiropractors rock man! Bill R.

Response:

Greetings, rec.runners! Please tell us about your training week and goals.

s – DNR, 1 hr open water swimming at nearby bay w. 500m continuous swim m – triathlon training brick: ~18k bike followed by 8k run t – DNR, rest w – 8k run, slow and easy in extreme heat and humidity (40 C humidex) t – DNR, rest f – ~9-10k fartlek run s – DNR, 1 hr bike, 1:15 swim, w.  1k continuous swim Goals: nothing  planned just yet, but want to sign up for a sprint triathlon   before summer is over,  perhaps late July or late Aug. thanks for reading… Cam — Not every race can be a perfect experience, but every race can be a learning experience.

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mon 7.5 km a.m in 40 mins with wife, then 10 k in 49 mins p.m with club tue gym dnr wed 12 k (3 k at 5.10 pkm, then 7 k atarting at 5 mpk rising to 4.30 pk, then 2 k warm down at 6 mpk) thur a. m. 14 k at 5.15 pkm p.m: 1500 m race with timing: 6.15 (fourth from last in heat) fri gym, cycle 24 k to obtain beer from local micro brewery (great stuff) sat 21 k with club including run to club house and back, 5 k total about 66 k

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Greetings, rec.runners! Please tell us about your training week and goals. cheers, — David (in Hamilton, ON) www.allfalldown.org (my band/photo website)

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Greetings, rec.runners! Please tell us about your training week and goals. cheers, — David (in Hamilton, ON) www.allfalldown.org (my band/photo website)

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Question:

Several years ago on a trip to England I did a duathlon call Damp Dash somewhere near London. Is this race still put on. Still have my bright Pink long sleeve tee shirt. Graham In Chicago

Response:

Ahh, you mean the Warley Damp Dash, run by Human Race, who organise the excellent Windsor Triathlon. The Damp Dash was run in 2000, but not 2001 http://www.humanrace.co.uk/results00/dash.html It doesn’t appear to be scheduled for this year either, but then Human Race are the organisers for the Commonwealth Games(CG) Triathlon, which will be the second largest ever watched live triathlon. Race day is August 4th and will feature the best of the Canadians, Australians, Brits, South Africans and many others. No Americans I’m afraid, you kicked us out too soon! ++Mark. on the race crew for the CG2002 Triathlon http://www.humanrace.co.uk/salford/index.html

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Don’t worry though, your work mates will be sufficiently impressed that you finished, and got to hang out with all those half naked women that it will more than make up for not boasting about "doing London" when hanging out with real triathletes… The trick is not to miss the end of the downstream swim and Windsor, assuming you managed to surf the weir just past Eton bridge you could end up down in the City about 2-months before London tri. Have you got a club for training ? If you are north of London you’d be more than welcome to come hang out at a few training sessions with Tri-Force (Herts). We have 2x BTA Swim coaches and 6-days a week training sessions…(just don’t mention the London thing…) http://www.tri-force.fsnet.co.uk ++Mark.

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Mmm naked women….. Well, one of my colleagues is currently doing the marathon des sables so I have my work cut out to out do that on the ‘impressing people’ front! Thanks for the offer, but I’m based in Wimbledon. We (my girlfriend and I) are going to go along to Kingfisher (http://www.kingfishertriathletes.co.uk/) next week, they do various training sessions, and are very local. I wont mention the London thing. cheers Rob – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Don’t worry though, your work mates will be sufficiently impressed that you finished, and got to hang out with all those half naked women that it will more than make up for not boasting about "doing London" when hanging out with real triathletes… The trick is not to miss the end of the downstream swim and Windsor, assuming you managed to surf the weir just past Eton bridge you could end up down in the City about 2-months before London tri. Have you got a club for training ? If you are north of London you’d be more than welcome to come hang out at a few training sessions with Tri-Force (Herts). We have 2x BTA Swim coaches and 6-days a week training sessions…(just don’t mention the London thing…) http://www.tri-force.fsnet.co.uk ++Mark.

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Ah, thats fine for you guys who have actually done an ironman! That said, I shamelessly wear a timex ironman watch! Thanks for the input! cheers Rob – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey Rob, I use the Ironman VO2 Stealth, and its great.  Having said that, you do have to wander around in a wetsuit that has ‘Ironman’ plastered all over it.  Ive heard some of the new 2 piece suits are great – might be worth investigating. Cheers, ‘ triboynz Hi there, Having both been accepted for the Windsor and London tri’s my girlfriend and I have decided its time to get wetsuits! A friend has recommended terrapin (http://www.terrapin-bfa.co.uk). They seem good but was wondering if anyone else had any other recommedations? cheers Rob

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Thanks Mark, Terrapin are looking good so far.  We have looked at rental- the try/buy thing is also an option. Damn, you;ve seen through my thin veneer of real triathlete-ism and exposed the dull city worker that lurks beneath! Hey, it’ll be fun! Mmmmmmm swimming in the thames downstream of london…… cheers Rob – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Oh, I should also point out that you can rent wetsuits for either race. Since they are 3-months apart maybe you should try one of the rent-to-buy places. They will rent you the suit and if you like it you can keep it and put the rental towarsd the purchase price. Check the race websites for rental info… ++Mark. p.s. Real thriathletes don’t do London… only Elite paid athletes and City types…

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Hi there, Having both been accepted for the Windsor and London tri’s my girlfriend and I have decided its time to get wetsuits! A friend has recommended terrapin (http://www.terrapin-bfa.co.uk). They seem good but was wondering if anyone else had any other recommedations? cheers Rob

Response:

Hey Rob, I use the Ironman VO2 Stealth, and its great.  Having said that, you do have to wander around in a wetsuit that has ‘Ironman’ plastered all over it.  Ive heard some of the new 2 piece suits are great – might be worth investigating. Cheers, ‘ triboynz – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi there, Having both been accepted for the Windsor and London tri’s my girlfriend and I have decided its time to get wetsuits! A friend has recommended terrapin (http://www.terrapin-bfa.co.uk). They seem good but was wondering if anyone else had any other recommedations? cheers Rob

Response:

Hi there, Having both been accepted for the Windsor and London tri’s my girlfriend and I have decided its time to get wetsuits! A friend has recommended terrapin (http://www.terrapin-bfa.co.uk). They seem good but was wondering if anyone else had any other recommedations? cheers Rob

Well, Rob…wish I could help you out in only a few words but, your question is a bit more complex than you might think.  Below is a past post of mine.  It’s broken down into 2 parts. The post is very long, but includes a lot of details and experiences regarding wetsuits.  In brief, it discusses wetsuit various leg lengths…arm vs. armless…and new generation (radical design) wetsuits. (Specal note: Since I wrote the post below, I tried on the T1 – but, no swimming experience.  I can say that the fit is very confortable.) Part I I think wetsuits fall into two general categories: Traditional & New Generation Traditional wetsuits are of two basic styles: Full length-sleeveless and full length-with arms (as for a third style, sleeveless and short-legged, one word – virtually useless except for a super sprint – maybe).  The key advantages for the Sleeveless is that is gives a freedom of arm movement that mimics pool swimming and is faster to remove.  The key advantage of the full-length wetsuit is added bouncy (i.e., added speed with less effort). I have used both styles – full and sleeveless (for over 15yrs.)  I like the swim-feel of the sleeveless wetsuit.  I also like the ease of removal.  Therefore, I like the sleeveless for sprint distances. However, for I.D. distances or longer…I tolerate the Full w/ sleeves.  In comparison, I have decided there is no one wetsuit in the Traditional Category that is "perfect" for all triathlons. New Generation wetsuits are of two radical styles: 1) The super sprint distance (incl. F-1 sprints) to I.D. distance wetsuit of choice is the Piel Wetsuit.  This thing is off before you can exit the water! I have found it takes less than 6 seconds to remove while on the run – Unbelievable. As for its limitations – the zipper design make the legs seem a bit stiff and leaks a bit more than most. And like all wetsuits with arms, it does not have the best swim-feel. It shortens your stroke and adds stress to your shoulders (also, a by-product of the added zipper’s inelasticity). 2) The I.D. distance to I. M. the T1 wetsuit by DeSoto (note: both are acceptable for I.D. distance) is most likely the most comfortable. You might have noticed I said, "most likely" since I haven’t used this wetsuit.  However, It may become my next season’s wetsuit of choice for triathlons where comfort takes priority over T1 transition times – such as, 1/2 I. M. to I.M (I.D.-maybe).  From what I have heard, its key advantages are its confortable swim-feel and buoyancy. Forget speed or ease of removing when comparing it to the Piel (** see below – for removal comments regarding T1).  If the wetsuit had came out earlier in the season, I would have tried it out. Instead, I opted to experience the Piel wetsuit. If you’re looking for a perfect wetsuit for all triathlons…well, that’s a tough one.  I can’t give any one suit in any category an overwhelming multi-use advantage.  However, If you twist my arm – the new generation wetsuit types could best fit the bill for all. However, you would need to learn how to adapt your swimming technique and/or T1 transition methodology when using the Piel or the T1 by DeSoto*. As for wear and quality, I’ve had wetsuits last for 10+yrs. and have had them tear on on the first fit. The ultimate life of wetsuit is determined by how well it’s protected in the transition area. Well, that’s my take on wetsuit choices…FWIW.  Joe "geez, I love to buy these tri-toys" Moya *Disclaimer:  Don’t have any reason to advocate one product over another – Just the facts as I see them. Part II ** – Notes on T1 removal: Let me start out by saying the products I have used by DeSoto are – VERY good! For myself, I have some reservations about the T1 wet suits. The problems seem to fall in two categories – Removal and Vision (I’ll explain the "VISION" problem later in this post). With regard to removal, I have come to the conclusion that Wetsuits are in two distinct categories – Fast/Easy or Slow/Difficult. The fast and easy category seems to have zippers. And, the wetsuit with more, longer or sophisticated zippers are the easiest to remove. Unfortunately, (unless they are sleeveless and/or have calve length legs)they tend to be restrictive (i.e., high necks, ankle length) and pretty much uncomfortable for longer swims. Not to mention, they force you change your stroke length (as has been noted by DeSoto’s). Many of these issues seem to be tackled by the DeSoto T1. Unfortunately, the ease of removal can be considered a relative concept. To borrow a quote from a testimonial,- "Found when I just grabbed the hem of the top crossarmed I bunched the fabric in the back & couldn’t pull past the lump. Worked better when I first folded up 4in or so of the hem, to reduce bunching. Then I found something that worked better for me: pulled some of the L hem over my L elbow & used the strength of my deltoid to get the removal started; came off easier. You might want to have some others experiment with these or alternative ways to get past the strength problem some old athletes (I’m 65) & some women might experience." O.K., I’ve been a triathlete (17+ yr.) and use to many a discomfort, but to use the deltoid muscle to get the top off? The last thing I find easy to do is use your neck muscles, arms and deltoids to remove a top. After a long open water swim, I find the neck and shoulder muscles to be the MOST fatigued. So, from that perspective, a zipper could certainly be handy. In that sense, a zippered, sleeveless and calve length wet suit would make more sense for a sprint. It would have the best of "most" attributes needed for such a SHORT swim- 1) ease of removal (both from the leg and upper body standpoint) & 2) allows you to suffer the least from restrictive (ie.,neck rashes, tight chest/hindered breathing). And, the trade off seems to be loss of some bouyancy. On other hand, A T1 for a half-Ironman (and maybe a really tough I.D.) or longer may pay off from a comfort, stroke efficiency and buoyancy standpoint. In essence, transitions become less relevant. If I follow through on this logic, I need to own 2 wetsuits; one for sprints (maybe I.D. also) & one for half-IM’s or longer (i.e.,"Piel" and/vs. "T1"). Where does the T1 lie? Now comes the biggest downfall (for me) regarding a T1 (and the reason why I have held back buying one), I need corrected vision…I wear glasses. I have been down the "contact" road and it didn’t work. So, Now I have the perfect combo. I wear prescription goggles and sunglasses. Common sense tells me that you need to remove the goggles first. If I do that as I exit the water, HOW CAN I FIND MY BIKE? This is what I called earlier the Vision Problems. Nuf’ said,   FYI – Joe Moya

Response:

You can get any of the commercial grade US wetsuits in the UK. Desoto T1 currently being the exception I think. I’ve got a Terrapin wetsuit, Bidde Forde who founded the company some 20-years ago was a triathlete and professional diver herself at one time. She still makes the wetsuits herself in a workshop at the back of her home although has a bunch of people working for her now. The wetsuits are well made, well priced as she doesn’t go in for all the commercial stuff that drives prices up. For 200 UK Pounds she’ll make a good made to measure suit which can have have 3mm/5mm neoprene fitted to the bottom of the legs depending on your swimming ability. The best thing about using Bidde is she’ll maintain the suit for you. When I bought mine I was 20-pounds heavier, last year it needed taking in and she did it for me for free, I just paid postage. http://www.wetsuits.uk.com/ If you are a bog-standard size person, not overly heavy, unusually tall/short etc. then an off the peg suit would probably do but will likely cost as more than a made to measure one in the UK. It will have all the logos and brand-name association though. Since I plugged the terrapin suits and have no paid association with them, you might also want to look at Snugg suits. They also do off the peg and made to measure in the UK. I have no experience with them. http://www.snuggwetsuits.co.uk Finally, lost of UK related information and links to shops etc. at http://www.triathletes-uk.org/ Including links. Enjoy Windsor, its a great race. I won’t be there this year as I’ll be doing Alcatraz the same day! ++Mark.

Response:

Oh, I should also point out that you can rent wetsuits for either race. Since they are 3-months apart maybe you should try one of the rent-to-buy places. They will rent you the suit and if you like it you can keep it and put the rental towarsd the purchase price. Check the race websites for rental info… ++Mark. p.s. Real thriathletes don’t do London… only Elite paid athletes and City types…

Response:

Question:

thanks, Mike. that book you mentioned has come up a few times now, so i think it must be a good one to start with. i figure between a couple of good books, the web, and good folks like yourself, i’ll get a feel for things. and the rest is all trial and error, right?  perhaps i can find some tri people in my area whose brains i can pick. take care, Cam – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Cam–as with Mike Tennent, it has been so long since I was a "beginner" triathlete that recommendations from us might not be too good in the book department.  One that I remember was by a "normal" guy, Steven Jonas IIRC, called "Triathloning for Ordinary Mortals". You might go into a good specialty sports store and see what they might have in the way of books, and the website Mike T recommended would be a good resource as well.  And of course you can always ask questions in here or email some of us, me included, privately.  Be glad to help if I can. Train safe and good luck! Mike C

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Again, a few words of (hopefully) wisdom about the bike.  First, make sure the bike fits you.  Fit on a bike can be a complex issue and can change over time, but make sure your saddle is just below the point at which you’d have to rock your hips to reach your pedals – too low is inefficient and harder on the knees and back than it needs to be, too high will get you very sore in the lower back very quickly.  The position of the saddle in relation to the pedals is important, too – lots of people complain, e.g., they need to sit further back on their bicycles than the range of adjustment allows when all they need is to sit further away from the pedals and raising their saddle can accomplish the same thing. Ditto for handlebar position.  Where the bars are has a lot to do with your comfort and efficiency on the bike.  A good guideline for a road bike is to have your handlebars level with your saddle or an inch or two lower, maybe more if you’re tall.  But if that feels wrong, experiment with both the height and the reach.  Again, it’s easy to raise the bars when what you want is them closer, not higher, and vice versa.  I’d forget about being tri-specific on the bike at first. Buona Fortuna, and do yell this way if there’s anything I can do. Steve ‘now a swimming instructor at my local YMCA’ Freides

thanks for the wealth of information, Steve. i am now building a file of all of this stuff. i’m sure i’ll be overwhelmed before i know it.

Response:

 -snip- not sure how deep into the cycling thing i *need* to get. i have a bike, but am not fanatic about riding it. like you, my first love is running.

Again, a few words of (hopefully) wisdom about the bike.  First, make sure the bike fits you.  Fit on a bike can be a complex issue and can change over time, but make sure your saddle is just below the point at which you’d have to rock your hips to reach your pedals – too low is inefficient and harder on the knees and back than it needs to be, too high will get you very sore in the lower back very quickly.  The position of the saddle in relation to the pedals is important, too – lots of people complain, e.g., they need to sit further back on their bicycles than the range of adjustment allows when all they need is to sit further away from the pedals and raising their saddle can accomplish the same thing. Ditto for handlebar position.  Where the bars are has a lot to do with your comfort and efficiency on the bike.  A good guideline for a road bike is to have your handlebars level with your saddle or an inch or two lower, maybe more if you’re tall.  But if that feels wrong, experiment with both the height and the reach.  Again, it’s easy to raise the bars when what you want is them closer, not higher, and vice versa.  I’d forget about being tri-specific on the bike at first. Buona Fortuna, and do yell this way if there’s anything I can do. Steve ‘now a swimming instructor at my local YMCA’ Freides

Response:

and the rest is all trial and error, right? Or in some cases, tri and error….

Mike, i let you have that one. after i wrote my line, i thought of the joke. glad you caught the setup. Good luck Cam, you’re on the right track. Also be prepared to answer questions from the unknowing when, upon your telling them you are training for a triathlon, they will automatically assume you are training for an Ironman.   In fact, I think it’s already happened in this thread, correct?

yes, it came up, but i do look forward to telling people i’m doing this. it looks extremely do-able. the best news is that the race is a 5 minute drive from home, and that they encourage the use of mountain bikes (which is all i have right now). oh, and the swim is only 100m. i’m nearly doing that NOW. Anyway, have fun.  Steve did give some good advice re: biking and swimming, and to that I will add one piece of advice:  don’t fret if you are not a strong swimmer.  In most tris, the swim leg is proportionately the shortest one, so don’t spend an inordinate amount of time on it.  The bike is the key, and more to the point, how well you run off the bike.  This doesn’t mean you should not place some emphasis on the swim—just don’t get carried away with it.  Go for efficiency over distance in the water, form over yardage, particularly at the start.

my front crawl skills are pretty much nil, so i’m currently relying on side stroke and breast stroke, and back stroke to "rest" now and then. i’m thinking of taking either a private or group swim class to get the basics of front crawl, and will throw that into my repertoire. thanks for the tidbits of info. i’m really lucking out in terms of convenience for doing my first tri. every little bit will help. Cam

Response:

and the rest is all trial and error, right?

Or in some cases, tri and error…. Good luck Cam, you’re on the right track. Also be prepared to answer questions from the unknowing when, upon your telling them you are training for a triathlon, they will automatically assume you are training for an Ironman.  In fact, I think it’s already happened in this thread, correct? Anyway, have fun.  Steve did give some good advice re: biking and swimming, and to that I will add one piece of advice:  don’t fret if you are not a strong swimmer.  In most tris, the swim leg is proportionately the shortest one, so don’t spend an inordinate amount of time on it.  The bike is the key, and more to the point, how well you run off the bike.  This doesn’t mean you should not place some emphasis on the swim—just don’t get carried away with it.  Go for efficiency over distance in the water, form over yardage, particularly at the start. Mike C

Response:

i know, i know…. this isn’t exactly a triathlon ng, and i know that there IS one i can check out (and i will), BUT…. i know that there are at least a few folks here who do tri’s, and you *might* be more likely to give me some good tips, seeing as you may know me well enough now to consider me not too unlikable (at least my ng personality

 Cam–as with Mike Tennent, it has been so long since I was a "beginner" triathlete that recommendations from us might not be too good in the book department.  One that I remember was by a "normal" guy, Steven Jonas IIRC, called "Triathloning for Ordinary Mortals". You might go into a good specialty sports store and see what they might have in the way of books, and the website Mike T recommended would be a good resource as well.  And of course you can always ask questions in here or email some of us, me included, privately.  Be glad to help if I can. Train safe and good luck! Mike C

Response:

Steve’s advice on swimming is excellent, take it to heart because you can get into more trouble during the swimming leg than any other portion of a tri. The only thing I would add is that if your race will include open water swimming, practice in open water a lot. There are psychological and physiological differences between the pool and a lake or bay.  Not to mention the chaos of tens to hundreds of other athletes all trying for the same finish line.  As a former competitive swimmer I have helped several tri-athletes with their strokes (you really only need two, the crawl and dog paddle) and I still remember the very first one who balked when confronted with that cold, dirty lakewater. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – —good info, but snipped— If I could offer but one piece of advice, it would be to take swimming lessons (assuming you aren’t already a good swimmer).  Swimming is the most skill dependent of the three sports and by a *lot*.  I swam on my own for a while, then signed up for things at my local YMCA – first an ‘advanced’ swimming class, where they worked on all the different strokes and taught us some basic practice ideas, then private lessons for a year with a former competitive swimmer.  Between the two I made quite a transformation, from someone who could kinda sorta swim a mile without stopping to someone who everyone now comes up to and asks me if _I_ used to be a member of the swim team!  (I used to just laugh when they said that but now I accept the compliment graciously as a reflection of all the hard work I put in.) i just inquired at a nearby pool about lessons. i’m doing some shopping around right now…. hopefully i can decide before the winter session gets underway, so i don’t miss anything. private lessons might be an option. i’m a pretty weak swimmer, and have of late been simply teaching myself a few new strokes and am just working on endurance, and a bit on technique (based on stuff i read from a swimming book). While there is also a swimming newsgroup, I’ve found it to be one of the least helpful, but I think that’s because swimming really requires in-person instruction and discussing the finer points is really best left to really advanced swimmers.  The bicycling newsgroups (I think there are at least seven now) are high-volume places where you can get some good help if you don’t mind putting up with a bit of noise along the way. not sure how deep into the cycling thing i *need* to get. i have a bike, but am not fanatic about riding it. like you, my first love is running. Hope this is of some help, and I’m glad to continue off-list if it would be helpful to you. sure, i’ll direct further questions to you that way. thanks very much, Steve. Cam

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have to agree with Steve, although I am a triathlete, The triathlon ng is not very friendly. The first book I bough was Endurance training for the serious athlete. Great book, but not too "fun" The other I would recommend is the triathletes training bible. You can get the triathletes training bible and total immersion for $26.00 at Amazon right now. They have a special running if you buy them both at once. Amazon also has the option to buy it used if they have it. (No, no Amazon stock) I also am a real beginner and only do sprints so far. Running is my first love. It was the discovery of running that lead me to believe I could do a tri. Good Luck!!! jojo

thanks, jojo. man, i had an Amazon gift certificate, but used it to buy music…. i should have waited and gone for this deal! ah well, still do-able. Cam

Response:

—good info, but snipped— If I could offer but one piece of advice, it would be to take swimming lessons (assuming you aren’t already a good swimmer).  Swimming is the most skill dependent of the three sports and by a *lot*.  I swam on my own for a while, then signed up for things at my local YMCA – first an ‘advanced’ swimming class, where they worked on all the different strokes and taught us some basic practice ideas, then private lessons for a year with a former competitive swimmer.  Between the two I made quite a transformation, from someone who could kinda sorta swim a mile without stopping to someone who everyone now comes up to and asks me if _I_ used to be a member of the swim team!  (I used to just laugh when they said that but now I accept the compliment graciously as a reflection of all the hard work I put in.)

i just inquired at a nearby pool about lessons. i’m doing some shopping around right now…. hopefully i can decide before the winter session gets underway, so i don’t miss anything. private lessons might be an option. i’m a pretty weak swimmer, and have of late been simply teaching myself a few new strokes and am just working on endurance, and a bit on technique (based on stuff i read from a swimming book). While there is also a swimming newsgroup, I’ve found it to be one of the least helpful, but I think that’s because swimming really requires in-person instruction and discussing the finer points is really best left to really advanced swimmers.  The bicycling newsgroups (I think there are at least seven now) are high-volume places where you can get some good help if you don’t mind putting up with a bit of noise along the way.

not sure how deep into the cycling thing i *need* to get. i have a bike, but am not fanatic about riding it. like you, my first love is running. Hope this is of some help, and I’m glad to continue off-list if it would be helpful to you.

sure, i’ll direct further questions to you that way. thanks very much, Steve. Cam

Response:

In article – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Cam, It’s been so long since I’ve looked at beginning tri books, that I really don’t know which is a good one. However, I can recommend a good web site:  www.trinewbies.com It’s aimed at new triathletes, has lots of good stuff, and has an active, supportive forum. The guy that runs it lives here on St. Simons Island. We were supposed to do IM Canada  together in ‘98 but he bailed because of medical problems. He just did IM Fla in, IIRC, around 12 hours. Give it a look. Mike Tennent "IronPenguin" ‘98 Ironman Canada, ‘99, ‘00 ‘01 Great Floridian

thanks, Mike. i’ll check it out. Cam

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – so… can anyone recommend ONE good beginner’s triathlon book? something that is fun to read AND informative. just enough to get me set up with the basic skills, knowledge and equipment to do a sprint tri. i looked at a few different books today; some looked far too technical for a newbie like me (like a huge one called something like "the triathlete’s bible"), while others were too skimpy. if the sport grabs me, then i’ll get into that stuff. Not so long ago down and out with a knee-problem – and now training for an ironman competition! Wau. Jarno

um, Jarno, you must be careful there…. I said *sprint* triathlon – NOT the IM. the IM is merely a dream for me; that will have to wait until after many other goals are achieved first. my knee is still iffy (not really sure of its status – need to talk to dr’s again), but a good physiotherapist friend told me that if i did certain exercises  and stretches, i should be running again soon. encouraged by that, i have begun to think more positively about 2002 racing goals. thanks for the support! Cam

Response:

I have to agree with Steve, although I am a triathlete, The triathlon ng is not very friendly. The first book I bough was Endurance training for the serious athlete. Great book, but not too "fun" The other I would recommend is the triathletes training bible. You can get the triathletes training bible and total immersion for $26.00 at Amazon right now. They have a special running if you buy them both at once. Amazon also has the option to buy it used if they have it. (No, no Amazon stock) I also am a real beginner and only do sprints so far. Running is my first love. It was the discovery of running that lead me to believe I could do a tri. Good Luck!!! jojo – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i know, i know…. this isn’t exactly a triathlon ng, and i know that there IS one i can check out (and i will), BUT…. i know that there are at least a few folks here who do tri’s, and you *might* be more likely to give me some good tips, seeing as you may know me well enough now to consider me not too unlikable (at least my ng personality OK, now who are the tri guys and gals here? David, the two Mikes, any others? so… can anyone recommend ONE good beginner’s triathlon book? something that is fun to read AND informative. just enough to get me set up with the basic skills, knowledge and equipment to do a sprint tri. i looked at a few different books today; some looked far too technical for a newbie like me (like a huge one called something like "the triathlete’s bible"), while others were too skimpy. if the sport grabs me, then i’ll get into that stuff. i *did* pick up Triathlon 101, by John Mora. it cost more than some of the others, but it looked pretty good. i also grabbed the lastest copies of two tri magazines. any other suggestions would be much appreciated. I shouldn’t think that more than one or two books would be necessary…. and there MUST be something good on the web to help me out. thanks for any help! Cam

Response:

I run, swim, and cycle regularly although I don’t do triathlons.  (The closest I got was doing the running leg of a tri last year for the first time as part of a team.) I’m glad to be of any assistance in terms of training for all three sports.  I generally run 3x/week, bike 2x/week and swim 2x/week these days, along with weight training and tae kwan do.  At times in the recent past, I’ve done all three sports on the same day.  Anything’s possible as long as you allow sufficient recovery time. There _is_ a triathlon newsgroup but I haven’t found it to be the friendly place this is. If I could offer but one piece of advice, it would be to take swimming lessons (assuming you aren’t already a good swimmer).  Swimming is the most skill dependent of the three sports and by a *lot*.  I swam on my own for a while, then signed up for things at my local YMCA – first an ‘advanced’ swimming class, where they worked on all the different strokes and taught us some basic practice ideas, then private lessons for a year with a former competitive swimmer.  Between the two I made quite a transformation, from someone who could kinda sorta swim a mile without stopping to someone who everyone now comes up to and asks me if _I_ used to be a member of the swim team!  (I used to just laugh when they said that but now I accept the compliment graciously as a reflection of all the hard work I put in.) While there is also a swimming newsgroup, I’ve found it to be one of the least helpful, but I think that’s because swimming really requires in-person instruction and discussing the finer points is really best left to really advanced swimmers.  The bicycling newsgroups (I think there are at least seven now) are high-volume places where you can get some good help if you don’t mind putting up with a bit of noise along the way. Hope this is of some help, and I’m glad to continue off-list if it would be helpful to you. -S- – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i know, i know…. this isn’t exactly a triathlon ng, and i know that there IS one i can check out (and i will), BUT…. i know that there are at least a few folks here who do tri’s, and you *might* be more likely to give me some good tips, seeing as you may know me well enough now to consider me not too unlikable (at least my ng personality OK, now who are the tri guys and gals here? David, the two Mikes, any others? so… can anyone recommend ONE good beginner’s triathlon book? something that is fun to read AND informative. just enough to get me set up with the basic skills, knowledge and equipment to do a sprint tri. i looked at a few different books today; some looked far too technical for a newbie like me (like a huge one called something like "the triathlete’s bible"), while others were too skimpy. if the sport grabs me, then i’ll get into that stuff. i *did* pick up Triathlon 101, by John Mora. it cost more than some of the others, but it looked pretty good. i also grabbed the lastest copies of two tri magazines. any other suggestions would be much appreciated. I shouldn’t think that more than one or two books would be necessary…. and there MUST be something good on the web to help me out. thanks for any help! Cam

Response:

Cam, It’s been so long since I’ve looked at beginning tri books, that I really don’t know which is a good one. However, I can recommend a good web site:  www.trinewbies.com It’s aimed at new triathletes, has lots of good stuff, and has an active, supportive forum. The guy that runs it lives here on St. Simons Island. We were supposed to do IM Canada  together in ‘98 but he bailed because of medical problems. He just did IM Fla in, IIRC, around 12 hours. Give it a look. Mike Tennent "IronPenguin" ‘98 Ironman Canada, ‘99, ‘00 ‘01 Great Floridian

Response:

so… can anyone recommend ONE good beginner’s triathlon book? something that is fun to read AND informative. just enough to get me set up with the basic skills, knowledge and equipment to do a sprint tri. i looked at a few different books today; some looked far too technical for a newbie like me (like a huge one called something like "the triathlete’s bible"), while others were too skimpy. if the sport grabs me, then i’ll get into that stuff.

Not so long ago down and out with a knee-problem – and now training for an ironman competition! Wau. Jarno — The woods are lovely, dark and deep But I have promises to keep And miles to go before I sleep And miles to go before I sleep.  - Robert Frost

Response:

i know, i know…. this isn’t exactly a triathlon ng, and i know that there IS one i can check out (and i will), BUT…. i know that there are at least a few folks here who do tri’s, and you *might* be more likely to give me some good tips, seeing as you may know me well enough now to consider me not too unlikable (at least my ng personality OK, now who are the tri guys and gals here? David, the two Mikes, any others? so… can anyone recommend ONE good beginner’s triathlon book? something that is fun to read AND informative. just enough to get me set up with the basic skills, knowledge and equipment to do a sprint tri. i looked at a few different books today; some looked far too technical for a newbie like me (like a huge one called something like "the triathlete’s bible"), while others were too skimpy. if the sport grabs me, then i’ll get into that stuff. i *did* pick up Triathlon 101, by John Mora. it cost more than some of the others, but it looked pretty good. i also grabbed the lastest copies of two tri magazines. any other suggestions would be much appreciated. I shouldn’t think that more than one or two books would be necessary…. and there MUST be something good on the web to help me out. thanks for any help! Cam

Response:

Question:

Although I haven’t tried it, something tells me vinegar might work. Get in the shower, pour the stuff over your head and body, let it sit for a second, and then shower as usual. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I can’t get rid of the chlorine smell for two days after a swim. I shower regularly, but it seems to take 2-3 showers before I smell fresh and clean and rid of chlorine. Can anyone suggest something besides sandblasting? Thanks. Paul

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Ruth, if you smell like chlorine, I’ll follow you anywhere. Ray – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Guess so or you are dating the wrong women!  All my life I have almost exclusively dated swimmers/triathletes…and it isn’t just for their awesome bodies!  Chlorine scent is FAR more appealing than any cologne.   But then again I also love the smell of fresh tar on a hot summer’s day, gasoline (even the special winter blend they have around here till Feb) and beach balls, so maybe it is just me. -hug(who eschews lotions and special soaps and accepts itchiness as a small price to pay to smell of chlorine – yum!) I can’t believe there’s someone else in this world who sniffs gasoline and fresh tar as I do.  Of course, chlorine is the greatest pheromone in the world. It also signals *home* away from home, always a welcoming smell.  But soaps and perfumes and the like are anathema to me. Ruth Kazez (It’s a lovely white frosty nippy morning here.  I hope everyone is enjoying this season, especially Ken and DE who are season-deprived and are dependent on whatever snowy illusions they can dream up with their laced passion fruit.  As for cointreau and tequila, I’ll take that with my guava, thank you.)

Response:

Use some baking powder on your washcloth or mixed in with your gel soap.  Make sure to use a good body lotion afterward.  Do not use baking soda on your hair…unless you want to be prematurely gray. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I can’t get rid of the chlorine smell for two days after a swim. I shower regularly, but it seems to take 2-3 showers before I smell fresh and clean and rid of chlorine. Can anyone suggest something besides sandblasting? Thanks. Paul

Response:

Chlorine scent is FAR more appealing than any cologne.   But then again I also love the smell of fresh tar on a hot summer’s day, gasoline (even the special winter blend they have around here till Feb) and beach balls, so maybe it is just me.

Where have you been all my life? -hug(who eschews lotions and special soaps and accepts itchiness as a small price to pay to smell of chlorine – yum!)

More fun to scratch.

Response:

I can’t believe there’s someone else in this world who sniffs gasoline and fresh tar as I do.

Acetone, anyone?

Response:

You guys on rst sure do have your cosmetics problems, your soaps and shampoos, depilatories and deodorants, sinus cleansers, ear depluggers, and so on forever.  Tell me, Schwing: before your deflora…umm, how do you make a noun out of deflower – help me out here, Brian

You were headed in the right direction; ‘defloration’ would work, or you could just use ‘deflowering,’ "carnal debut," or any number of other colorful euphemisms.  Hey, why do I always get asked these questions, anyway?

Response:

Where have you been all my life?

Oh, probably spending hours in the pool rather than on the computer arguing on-line <g.  Actually you’ve been rather mellow lately…I’m sure it won’t last long though. BTW, yes, acetone is nice, but Wite Out is nicer – though maybe that contains some acetone? -hug (who was once caught sniffing floor mats and tires at Pep Boys – another customer asked if the tires were scented!)

Response:

Oh, probably spending hours in the pool rather than on the computer arguing on-line <g.

Or in a dumpster somewhere looking for breakfast? Actually you’ve been rather mellow lately…I’m sure it won’t last long though.

I’ve been off line for ten days, but nobody’s said anything egregiously dumb to respond to either.   BTW, yes, acetone is nice, but Wite Out is nicer – though maybe that contains some acetone?

Are you hold enough to remember ditto (mimeograph) machines, and the smell of fresh ditto sheets? -hug (who was once caught sniffing floor mats and tires at Pep Boys – another customer asked if the tires were scented!)

Be still my heart.  Someone told me the auto parts store was the best place to meet quality people.

Response:

You guys on rst sure do have your cosmetics problems, your soaps and shampoos, depilatories and deodorants, sinus cleansers, ear depluggers, and so on forever.  Tell me, Schwing: before your deflora…umm, how do you make a noun out of deflower – help me out here, Brian You were headed in the right direction; ‘defloration’ would work, or you could just use ‘deflowering,’

. . . which is the usage I’ve always seen – ‘Deflowering’

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You guys on rst sure do have your cosmetics problems, your soaps and shampoos, depilatories and deodorants, sinus cleansers, ear depluggers, and so on forever.  Tell me, Schwing: before your deflora…umm, how do you make a noun out of deflower – help me out here, Brian You were headed in the right direction; ‘defloration’ would work, or you could just use ‘deflowering,’ . . . which is the usage I’ve always seen – ‘Deflowering’

Yes, but why am I always the one asked these questions?

Response:

I can’t be all bad.  Today at the office about 1 hour out of the pool I was standing with a group when someone commented "what’s that smell, it smells like a candle" After a long pause someone else said "No it smells like a pool"  —  I confessed. Not sure what the solution is so you might as well get used to it.

and don’t discount the fact that some chicks dig it. — f otINOKYad

Response:

and don’t discount the fact that some chicks dig it. — f otINOKYad

Hmmm, in my 15 years of swimming and 10 years of triathlon, I’ve never had a woman compliment me on my chlorine tablet smell. I must be living in the wrong area then. Iron Pete "Eau de Chlorine anyone?" Priolo

Response:

Ultra Swim makes a liquid soap product called Ultra Swim Shower Gel. I use every day. It helps immensely to rid the chlorine aroma. ….. I still find the need to use Lubriderm all over after a swim/shower,

 ….yadda yadda yadda. You guys on rst sure do have your cosmetics problems, your soaps and shampoos, depilatories and deodorants, sinus cleansers, ear depluggers, and so on forever.  Tell me, Schwing: before your deflora…umm, how do you make a noun out of deflower – help me out here, Brian…anyhow, before your bmw awakening, were cosmetics a problem or are these the concerns of maturity for which I must look forward. Ruth "toujours au naturel" Kazez

Response:

Grapefruit extract, eh? So it’s not just for fat-burning anymore! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Newsgroups: rec.sport.triathlon I can’t get rid of the chlorine smell for two days after a swim. I shower regularly, but it seems to take 2-3 showers before I smell fresh and clean and rid of chlorine. Can anyone suggest something besides sandblasting? Thanks. Try a shampoo with grapefruit extract. I used it at the recommendation of my er, well, OK, hairdresser, to get rid of the chlorine from my hair; worked admirably as a body wash, too. Marc R

Response:

And here I thought women wanted a sensitive guy. Must not have been sensitive skin they were talking about. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ultra Swim makes a liquid soap product called Ultra Swim Shower Gel. I use every day. It helps immensely to rid the chlorine aroma. ….. I still find the need to use Lubriderm all over after a swim/shower,  ….yadda yadda yadda. You guys on rst sure do have your cosmetics problems, your soaps and shampoos, depilatories and deodorants, sinus cleansers, ear depluggers, and so on forever.  Tell me, Schwing: before your deflora…umm, how do you make a noun out of deflower – help me out here, Brian…anyhow, before your bmw awakening, were cosmetics a problem or are these the concerns of maturity for which I must look forward. Ruth "toujours au naturel" Kazez

Response:

Ultra Swim makes a liquid soap product called Ultra Swim Shower Gel. I use every day. It helps immensely to rid the chlorine aroma. (I kind of like the smell though).

I thought I was the only one. I don’t exactly love the smell, but it’s as close as you can get to the pool without actually going to the pool.  

Response:

if you take a good shower before you swim,  your skin won’t suck up all that chlorinated water in the pool.  it helps todd sandiego

Response:

Hmmm, in my 15 years of swimming and 10 years of triathlon, I’ve never had a woman compliment me on my chlorine tablet smell. I must be living in the wrong area then.

Guess so or you are dating the wrong women!  All my life I have almost exclusively dated swimmers/triathletes…and it isn’t just for their awesome bodies!  Chlorine scent is FAR more appealing than any cologne.   But then again I also love the smell of fresh tar on a hot summer’s day, gasoline (even the special winter blend they have around here till Feb) and beach balls, so maybe it is just me. -hug(who eschews lotions and special soaps and accepts itchiness as a small price to pay to smell of chlorine – yum!)

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That’s right, and we wouldn’t have to use so much chlorine either. Ken,swims in the ocean,DaVico

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – if you take a good shower before you swim,  your skin won’t suck up all that chlorinated water in the pool.  it helps todd sandiego

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Guess so or you are dating the wrong women!  All my life I have almost exclusively dated swimmers/triathletes…and it isn’t just for their awesome bodies!  Chlorine scent is FAR more appealing than any cologne.   But then again I also love the smell of fresh tar on a hot summer’s day, gasoline (even the special winter blend they have around here till Feb) and beach balls, so maybe it is just me. -hug(who eschews lotions and special soaps and accepts itchiness as a small price to pay to smell of chlorine – yum!)

I can’t believe there’s someone else in this world who sniffs gasoline and fresh tar as I do.  Of course, chlorine is the greatest pheromone in the world. It also signals *home* away from home, always a welcoming smell.  But soaps and perfumes and the like are anathema to me. Ruth Kazez (It’s a lovely white frosty nippy morning here.  I hope everyone is enjoying this season, especially Ken and DE who are season-deprived and are dependent on whatever snowy illusions they can dream up with their laced passion fruit.  As for cointreau and tequila, I’ll take that with my guava, thank you.)

Response:

Ultra Swim makes a liquid soap product called Ultra Swim Shower Gel. I use every day. It helps immensely to rid the chlorine aroma. (I kind of like the smell though). I’d say it has a 90 % effectiveness rate, as if I begin sweating I can sometimes get a slight whiff of pool water but not at all like if I just use regular soap. I still find the need to use Lubriderm all over after a swim/shower, no matter what I do. In fact, my back is itching right now because it is the only spot I can’t get the Ultra Swim and Lubriderm to. As Ken said, check out the chlorine content of your pool. The pool where I swim goes very easy on the chlorine yet the smell is still there on the skin. Mike

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I can’t get rid of the chlorine smell for two days after a swim. I shower regularly, but it seems to take 2-3 showers before I smell fresh and clean and rid of chlorine. Can anyone suggest something besides sandblasting? Thanks. Paul

Response:

Perhaps you need to question the chlorine content of the pool. Ken

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I can’t get rid of the chlorine smell for two days after a swim. I shower regularly, but it seems to take 2-3 showers before I smell fresh and clean and rid of chlorine. Can anyone suggest something besides sandblasting? Thanks. Paul

Response:

I can’t be all bad.  Today at the office about 1 hour out of the pool I was standing with a group when someone commented "what’s that smell, it smells like a candle" After a long pause someone else said "No it smells like a pool"  —  I confessed. Not sure what the solution is so you might as well get used to it. Wayne

| I can’t get rid of the chlorine smell for two days after a swim. I shower | regularly, but it seems to take 2-3 showers before I smell fresh and clean | and rid of chlorine. Can anyone suggest something besides sandblasting? | Thanks. | | Paul |

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I can’t get rid of the chlorine smell for two days after a swim. I shower regularly, but it seems to take 2-3 showers before I smell fresh and clean and rid of chlorine. Can anyone suggest something besides sandblasting? Thanks. Paul

Response:

I can’t get rid of the chlorine smell for two days after a swim. I shower regularly, but it seems to take 2-3 showers before I smell fresh and clean and rid of chlorine. Can anyone suggest something besides sandblasting? Thanks.

Try a shampoo with grapefruit extract. I used it at the recommendation of my er, well, OK, hairdresser, to get rid of the chlorine from my hair; worked admirably as a body wash, too. Marc R

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Question:

(IndyRunr1) writes: It is indeed interesting to note that while thousands of mediocre runners train with complete fixation on a HRM, many of the top runners don’t. Oh no, now look out, you’ve just pissed of the mediocre runners.  ;) I’d say it would possibly help out a NEWBIE, but it is very limited and very overstated in it’s benefits.  Again, my thoughts are a person has thrown away their money by purchasing one.  

Steve’s point was that he was doing exactly what a heart rate monitor would tell him to, and was succesfull with it. That seems a far cry from your suggestion that US athletes do less well because they use heart rate monitors. Rod. The most foolish man may easily ask more than the wisest may ever know.

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I’m aware of the Kenyan training methods bandied around these days. Many training camps openly invite Westerners to join them in their world of running, eating, running, resting, running, and sleeping. As for the Kenyan tempos, very interesting, but if I wanted to do that I would race every week! Obviously I’m far from elite, it might work well for some of our European or US elites though.

Charlie, The beauty of all this is that it works for you and I too. Perhaps even more so. We don’t have all day to train as the full time elites do. Most recreational runners have an hour a day and that’s about it Seiler says that once the base is established, more and more of the training should be done in the 80 – 85% V02 Max range. Therefore instead of going out and plodding through another 45 min run at LSD pace, warm up for 10 min then run for 10 – 20 min run at 80 – 85%, then warm down for 5 min. And racing is not bad either. Just don’t make every race an all out, going for a PB affair. I wanted to know who can tell me what the top Africans are doing. Not the guys who turn up at US races and sweep the places. I’m talking record breakers – what do they do?? Can someone confirm they do not have coaches/assistants logging progress and graphing it out scientifically? Here is an updated list of runners who’s allegedly puke-focussed training (according to IndyRunnr) I would like to know more about: Komen Tergat Geb Wilson Kipketer El Guerrouj Bernard Barmasai

Again from Seiler’s site there is a article on how Geb prepped for the last time the he got the WR in the 10,000(since broken by Tergat). Not sure what the exact pace per lap is, 62sec? Anyway, what he did was start a series of 25 X 400 at that pace and  over a number of weeks he kept cutting down the recovery between 400m repeats until it was  next to nothing. He then knew that he could break the WR. Sounds insane, but obviously it works. Steve Fleck

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You *sure* about that, or just being figurative??? I’m sure Miles, they hooked up 7 HRM to 7 different drivers this year for the race.  I’m waiting on the results.  They say it is unbelieveable how high and hard these guys heart rates are while driving 220+ mph.  When I get the feedback, I’ll let you know.  They are great athletes.  This has been known for several years now. Go Pacers    David "IndyRunr"

*LMAO*….great athletes?…..yeah, right behind the Professional Bowlers! ..and exactly how does high heartrate correlate to being a great athlete?  Since good sex causes high heartrates I’ll guess we’ll be seeing horny people on Wheaties Boxes soon!…;) Thom "drives his car to stay in shape" Trimble

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I recall reading an article on Dr. Stephen Seiler’s home page a while back about the Kenyans and how they trained. Of course we have to treat all of this with a grain of salt, but it did seem to make sense and it dovetailed nicely with Dr. Seiler’s reaserach on training. The article said that the Kenyans did a fair amount of base training, usually in very hilly terrain and at moderate altitude. After a month or two of this they would move onto a more quality type of training. According to Seiler, the Kenyan’s do not do interval training as we know it.Much of there hard training more closely resembles what we would consider tempo running – longer sessions(10 – 20 min) at or slighlty below threshold pace. Now for these guys that’s 4:30 mile pace, so they are moving pretty quickly. Seiler’s research revolves around trying to find the optimum level of exertion for the most physiological gain in terms of fitness. What he has determined is that the most gains are made in the 80 – 85 % VO2 max range – a pace that is hard, but not all out i.e. a tempo run. Running at higher levels of exertion than this, does yeild improvments in fitness, but less so to the most important parameters – absolute V02 max and lactate clearence.Perhaps some others have more to add.

I’m aware of the Kenyan training methods bandied around these days. Many training camps openly invite Westerners to join them in their world of running, eating, running, resting, running, and sleeping. As for the Kenyan tempos, very interesting, but if I wanted to do that I would race every week! Obviously I’m far from elite, it might work well for some of our European or US elites though. I wanted to know who can tell me what the top Africans are doing. Not the guys who turn up at US races and sweep the places. I’m talking record breakers – what do they do?? Can someone confirm they do not have coaches/assistants logging progress and graphing it out scientifically? Here is an updated list of runners who’s allegedly puke-focussed training (according to IndyRunnr) I would like to know more about: Komen Tergat Geb Wilson Kipketer El Guerrouj Bernard Barmasai Charlie Williams  http://www.quebec.demon.co.uk/ Remove SMUG_GRIN before replying..

Response:

FOR SALE:  Polar FAVOR HRM<BR       Excellent working order<BR       $50.00 (I’ll pay shipping)

hahaha, good one Bill.   I must admit I have very strong feelings on this, HRM and V02Max stuff.  I to was fooled years ago by the science of the sport.  Things the Kenyans, or the rest of the world don’t need or use, things Pre, Rogers, Wattles, etc., etc. never needed and were successful do to hard work.   It gets me to see these US coachs tell the US runners they can run half (65mpw) of what the rest of the world does (120+mpw) and still be competitive with the world by using sceince rather than hard work.   I’m also tired of seeing people say oh well they’re African so it’s in their blood.  This is racist and Pippig, Slaney, Kennedy (to some degree) and others, plus the Germans, Mexicans, Asians, etc., have proven this wrong.  It’s hard work, lots of miles and hard speed sessions, which a lot of Americans or other runners refuse to do.  Not to say they (US runners) don’t work and train hard, but not hard enough.  RW has put training programs of elite runners in their mag for some time now, and you can see where people just won’t put in the long hard weekly mileage anymore.   I do know that the Kenyans have been TESTED for HR and VO2Max but again I know of none who TRAIN or RUN this way, although some may and I’m unaware.  We Americans just need to run and train harder and at a higher level, with better coaching.  I like the idea that Bob Kennedy is at least willing to try, most US runners aren’t.    David "IndyRunr"

Response:

David, It is indeed interesting to note that while thousands of mediocre runners train with complete fixation on a HRM, many of the top runners don’t.I have trained with many top ranked runners, triathletes and cross-country skiers over the years in my country, and few of them trained with a HRM. For some reason I have a difficult time seeing Dan Komen standing on the side of the track with a HRM, after doing a hard interval waiting for his HR to come back down into the "zone" before he does the next one. I do think that there is a use for HRM for the new runner. For the person who has no concept of pace or level of exertion. Out of interest, I started using one occasionally this winter( I won a HRM in race).I had trained and raced very well(top ranked triathlete locally and nationally) for many years. It was interesting for me to wear the HRM for some of my benchmark workouts on the bike and the run – the long session, the tempo session, the interval workout. What I was finding was that all along I had been doing the right workouts at the right level of intensity, without a HRM. The long days and  the easy days were right in the zone that they should be and so were the tempo  and interval work outs. I wore the HRM in a few races and sure enough, my racing HR correllated well to my specific threshold for various distances. My point: Over time, if you know your body well enough, as I am sure top runners do, you will know what "easy" is and what "hard" is with out a HR. Steve Fleck – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Many people can, RW stayed with the Kenyans and wrote an article on their training a few months back, RT just did one too, Bob Kennedy trains and works out with them.  Face the facts, these guys win by training and running hard, not wasting their money on HRM’s or V02Max charts.  They just run hard till they puke.  :)  Try it and see how much better of a runner you’ll become.  And save your money from worthless gadgets, yet make money at races from hard work.  :)   Get rid of the science and these weak US coaches, and bust these wimpy US runners butts.  I’d say Uta, Tegla etc.,  none of these people train with this crap.  I don’t know about everyone up front, but I’d put money on it.  Nothing I’ve ever read or seen shows this in their training regiment.  Again I’ve worked out and ran with some of the top runners in the world, NONE use HRM’s.    David "IndyRunr"

Response:

It is indeed interesting to note that while thousands of mediocre runners train with complete fixation on a HRM, many of the top runners don’t.

Oh no, now look out, you’ve just pissed of the mediocre runners.  ;) I’d say it would possibly help out a NEWBIE, but it is very limited and very overstated in it’s benefits.  Again, my thoughts are a person has thrown away their money by purchasing one.      David "IndyRunr"

Response:

Charlie, I recall reading an article on Dr. Stephen Seiler’s home page a while back about the Kenyans and how they trained. Of course we have to treat all of this with a grain of salt, but it did seem to make sense and it dovetailed nicely with Dr. Seiler’s reaserach on training. The article said that the Kenyans did a fair amount of base training, usually in very hilly terrain and at moderate altitude. After a month or two of this they would move onto a more quality type of training. According to Seiler, the Kenyan’s do not do interval training as we know it.Much of there hard training more closely resembles what we would consider tempo running – longer sessions(10 – 20 min) at or slighlty below threshold pace. Now for these guys that’s 4:30 mile pace, so they are moving pretty quickly. Seiler’s research revolves around trying to find the optimum level of exertion for the most physiological gain in terms of fitness. What he has determined is that the most gains are made in the 80 – 85 % VO2 max range – a pace that is hard, but not all out i.e. a tempo run. Running at higher levels of exertion than this, does yeild improvments in fitness, but less so to the most important parameters – absolute V02 max and lactate clearence.Perhaps some others have more to add. Steve Fleck – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – But if we’re talking about the top echelons of world class running, are we *sure* that these guys don’t have access to, and *use* scientific profiling to aid in their training ??? I am highly sceptical of anyone who says "The Kenyans do it this way, so that’s what we should do!" Who in all honesty can tell me that they have intimate details of the year-round training schedules of Komen, Tergat, Kipketer, and Geb (yeah I know – he’s Ethiopean)? There are elite coaches who would kill for that piece of intelligence! (BTW: If anyone really does know even a rumour of what Kipketer does, email me Charlie Williams  http://www.quebec.demon.co.uk/ Remove SMUG_GRIN before replying..

Response:

Get rid of the science and these weak US coaches, and bust these wimpy US runners butts.

Harsh words indeed… Care to name names regarding the "weak" and the "wimps" ??? Again I’ve worked out and ran with some of the top runners in the world, NONE use HRM’s.

For ‘ordinary’ runners of wide ranging ability I’d say that HRM’s are worth careful consideration. By the time you get up to a World Class ranking I think things are a bit beyond a Polar Beat. Let’s not mix apples and pears. For ’science’ (in the guise of Sports Medicine) being used to help direct the training of a World Class runners, consider the likes of O’Sullivan and Radcliffe. Making the best use of all the ‘white coats’ can offer PLUS training like animals.   Miles —  "Each day that I run I have to accept the reality   of who I am that day" – The Penguin Chronicles Cut the 0_fin~SPAM_  if you prefer to reply by email

Response:

You *sure* about that, or just being figurative??? They say it is unbelieveable how high and hard these guys heart rates are while driving 220+ mph.

Sure is. I would never have guessed you could get near to MHR. Elevated HR sure, but 90+%, wow. Maybe, as suggested by Mark, the G-forces play a significant role here. Anyway, this is now drifting dangerously off-topic, so I’ll now withdraw from the thread.   Miles —  "Each day that I run I have to accept the reality   of who I am that day" – The Penguin Chronicles Cut the 0_fin~SPAM_  if you prefer to reply by email

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As far as HR it is overrated as far as running anyway.  These people using HRM’s are throwing away their money in my opinion.

Fair enough. But just consider, would *you* be interested in an HRM, even for just occasional use, if you could get one for, say 20 USD??? Unfortunately, they don’t cost 20 USD!!! But the principle is that the info they provide does have some value. But not, for you, in the 80-280 USD range. It’s hard work and training that pays off

Agreed. An HRM can’t do the training for you, it’s nothing but a dumb tool. not science, HRM or VO2Max crap.

But can you use an HRM to more efficiently direct your training?? That’s why Kenyans kick our butts.

Now that’s moving over into the ranks of the elite. I don’t suppose strapping on a Polar Beat is going to help Haille Gebreselassie very much!!! But if we’re talking about the top echelons of world class running, are we *sure* that these guys don’t have access to, and *use* scientific profiling to aid in their training ???   Miles —  "Each day that I run I have to accept the reality   of who I am that day" – The Penguin Chronicles Cut the 0_fin~SPAM_  if you prefer to reply by email

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Fitness isn’t necessarily an absolute number.  It means completing average exertions with a minimum of tiring, and extend the limits of peak exertions.  When I am very fit- i.e. used to 90 minute runs- my heart rate after a substantiually shorter run- say 60 minutes- will return to its resting rate in a minute. A sport I am not fit for, i.e. haven’t trained, may tire me relatively quickly. For example, I don’t bike that much, so an hour is tiring.

Response:

Not to mention a bit of adrenaline from the excitement.<BR If I threaten you with a loaded gun, your pulse rate will be pretty high even<BR if <BR you are too frightened to run.<

Rod, true, I was a cop for 6 years, during a high speed chase, or going into a dark building at night with your gun ready, hoping the best man won, got the herart rate up in your throat.  What an adrendaline rush, along with nerves.    David "IndyRunr"

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You *sure* about that, or just being figurative??? They say it is unbelieveable how high and hard these guys heart rates are while driving 220+ mph. Sure is. I would never have guessed you could get near to MHR. Elevated HR sure, but 90+%, wow. Maybe, as suggested by Mark, the G-forces play a significant role here. Anyway, this is now drifting dangerously off-topic, so I’ll now withdraw from the thread.

Not if it stays in the area of whether a high heart rate is an actual indicator of fitness. In itself, it isn’t. As Rod pointed out, very unfit people reach their MHR quite easily. Now, I do know that many drivers work out quite regularly. On the other hand, many don’t. Both groups are successful.  Even in his prime, you’d be pretty hard pressed to call A.J. Foyt "fit." But he was quite successful against younger, fitter drivers. I’m not sure there is any correlation between fitness and driving ability, tho I’d suspect fitness would come into play positively in the longer distance races. Mike "TriBop" Tennent http://www.gate.net/~wbrunner/ WebRunner Running My Model Railroad ‘98 Ironman Canada IronVirgins Site

Response:

Guan-Yow Ho) writes: This is going to be a bit off topic, but the question was sparked by the comment above. When someone is very fit, is it the case that the person’s heart rate can increase at a short amount of time (i.e., as soon as physical exertion is required) but that person’s heart rate also decreases rapidly in a short amount of time as soon as the exercise is done. (I hope my question isn’t confusing!)

Someone’s coming next week to talk at one of the meetings I organise (Andy Edwards of Sheffield Hallam University) about the transients in VO2 in sprint versus endurance trained athletes. I may have the answer then… If you do a plot of work against heart rate for incremental work loads (ie progressively jack up the work), the fitter you get, the further to the right the curve goes, ie for a given amount of work, the pulse is lower. In that sense it’s harder to get your pulse up to a given amount when fit. However, if you just blast off at a high work rate, I’m not entirely sure whose heart rate will level off first; the fit or the unfit. I suspect it may still be the unfit, but I could well be wrong. Roll on Andy…. Rod. The most foolish man may easily ask more than the wisest may ever know.

Response:

But if we’re talking about the top echelons of world class running, are we *sure* that these guys don’t have access to, and *use* scientific profiling to aid in their training ???

I am highly sceptical of anyone who says "The Kenyans do it this way, so that’s what we should do!" Who in all honesty can tell me that they have intimate details of the year-round training schedules of Komen, Tergat, Kipketer, and Geb (yeah I know – he’s Ethiopean)? There are elite coaches who would kill for that piece of intelligence! (BTW: If anyone really does know even a rumour of what Kipketer does, email me Charlie Williams  http://www.quebec.demon.co.uk/ Remove SMUG_GRIN before replying..

Response:

[snip] Get rid of the science and these weak US coaches, and bust these wimpy US runners butts.  I’d say Uta, Tegla etc.,  none of these people train with this crap.  I don’t know about everyone up front, but I’d put money on it.  Nothing I’ve ever read or seen shows this in their training regiment.  Again I’ve worked out and ran with some of the top runners in the world, NONE use HRM’s.   David "IndyRunr"

FOR SALE:  Polar FAVOR HRM            Excellent working order            $50.00 (I’ll pay shipping)

Response:

 Possibly more relevant from the fitness point of view was that apparently : Mick Jagger quite frequently attains his max heart rate during the more : energetic bits of the Stone’s stage show. : Of course, you could argue it’s because he’s very unfit that he gets his heart : rate up so easily; but then again you could say the same about those : drivers. : Rod. : The most foolish man may easily ask more than the wisest may ever know. This is going to be a bit off topic, but the question was sparked by the comment above. When someone is very fit, is it the case that the person’s heart rate can increase at a short amount of time (i.e., as soon as physical exertion is required) but that person’s heart rate also decreases rapidly in a short amount of time as soon as the exercise is done. (I hope my question isn’t confusing!) Conal

Response:

IndyCar drivers are some of the best athletes in the world.  Watching these guys and their strict workout regiments.  And to know that several of these guys use RUNNING to help them stay in shape.   To know that their HR is maxed, and maybe higher than any other athletes, for the time they are in the cockpit.  We’ll miss seeing these guys on the roads and on the tracks here in Indy.  See you next May guys.  Gods speed and be safe. Congratulations to Team Cheever and Eddie for winning the greatest race in the world, The Indy 500.  Eddie, great job. Jim Guthrie, get well soon. And Go Pacers.    David "IndyRunr"

Response:

To know that their HR is maxed, and maybe higher than any other athletes, for the time they are in the cockpit.

You *sure* about that, or just being figurative???   Miles —  "Each day that I run I have to accept the reality   of who I am that day" – The Penguin Chronicles Cut the 0_fin~SPAM_  if you prefer to reply by email

Response:

You *sure* about that, or just being figurative???

I’m sure Miles, they hooked up 7 HRM to 7 different drivers this year for the race.  I’m waiting on the results.  They say it is unbelieveable how high and hard these guys heart rates are while driving 220+ mph.  When I get the feedback, I’ll let you know.  They are great athletes.  This has been known for several years now. Go Pacers    David "IndyRunr"

Response:

You *sure* about that, or just being figurative???

IndyRunr1 I’m sure Miles, they hooked up 7 HRM to 7 different drivers this year for the IndyRunr1 race.  I’m waiting on the results.  They say it is unbelieveable how high and IndyRunr1 hard these guys heart rates are while driving 220+ mph.  When I get the IndyRunr1 feedback, I’ll let you know.  They are great athletes.  This has been known for IndyRunr1 several years now. The reports I have heard say the high heart rate is simply to overcome the G forces present in the race car.  While the high heat is a factor, it does not correlate to a level of exertion you would experience "exercising" (i.e. 180 bpm in race car does not equal 180 bpm while running intervals). mark.

Response:

it does not correlate to a level of exertion you would<BR experience "exercising" (i.e. 180 bpm in race car does not equal 180<BR bpm while running intervals).

I don’t know, maybe a lot is do to adendaline too.  But these guys are great athletes.  But it’s still very very high and maybe more than other sports players. As far as HR it is overrated as far as running anyway.  These people using HRM’s are throwing away their money in my opinion.  It’s hard work and training that pays off not science, HRM or VO2Max crap.  That’s why Kenyans kick our butts.  I’ve run and trained with some Kenyans, none wear HRM’s.  It’s hard work that pays off.  This science stuff along with weak coaches and low mileage, little speed work is killing the US athletes in competition.    David "IndyRunr"

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IndyRunr1 As far as HR it is overrated as far as running anyway.  These people using IndyRunr1 HRM’s are throwing away their money in my opinion. When I was doing two a days (running a 10km commute in the morning and night) I found it helpful to reign myself in (i.e. avoid overtraining). I could have done this without the HRM but it made me more vigilant about keeping tabs on myself. IndyRunr1  It’s hard work and training IndyRunr1 that pays off not science, HRM or VO2Max crap.  That’s why Kenyans kick our IndyRunr1 butts.  I’ve run and trained with some Kenyans, none wear IndyRunr1 HRM’s. I think it is foolish to avoid the role of science in training… but I agree with your general sentiment that it is 99% hard work.  The 1% of knowing where to apply that hard work is critical though. IndyRunr1 It’s hard IndyRunr1 work that pays off.  This science stuff along with weak coaches and low IndyRunr1 mileage, little speed work is killing the US athletes in competition. I think blaming science is too easy… if the pool of talent was there things would be different but why would anyone want to be a distance runner in North America?  The money?  The adulation from passers by (usually in the form of complimentary beer bottles ?     mark.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – IndyRunr1 I’m sure Miles, they hooked up 7 HRM to 7 different drivers this year for the IndyRunr1 race.  I’m waiting on the results.  They say it is unbelieveable how high and IndyRunr1 hard these guys heart rates are while driving 220+ mph.  When I get the IndyRunr1 feedback, I’ll let you know.  They are great athletes.  This has been known for IndyRunr1 several years now. The reports I have heard say the high heart rate is simply to overcome the G forces present in the race car.  While the high heat is a factor, it does not correlate to a level of exertion you would experience "exercising" (i.e. 180 bpm in race car does not equal 180 bpm while running intervals).

Not to mention a bit of adrenaline from the excitement. If I threaten you with a loaded gun, your pulse rate will be pretty high even if you are too frightened to run. Possibly more relevant from the fitness point of view was that apparently Mick Jagger quite frequently attains his max heart rate during the more energetic bits of the Stone’s stage show. Of course, you could argue it’s because he’s very unfit that he gets his heart rate up so easily; but then again you could say the same about those drivers. Rod. The most foolish man may easily ask more than the wisest may ever know.

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Question:

I read an interview with Allen a little while ago — around the time of the 97 Ironman — and he mentioned that he was in the process of writing a book. I guess it will be a kind of extension to/follow-up to TOTAL TRIATHLETE. Anybody have any news on this? I loved TT but felt it was totally incomplete because it finished really just as Allen’s career was starting (ie, it ended in 1987 and Allen only really dominated the sport from ‘89 onwards). — Shea

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Was that Mark Allen or the author formerly known as ‘Mark Allen’ ;^) — Slainte, Richard. Arran Triathlon Club – *the going got tough* – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I read an interview with Allen a little while ago — around the time of the 97 Ironman — and he mentioned that he was in the process of writing a book. I guess it will be a kind of extension to/follow-up to TOTAL TRIATHLETE. Anybody have any news on this? I loved TT but felt it was totally incomplete because it finished really just as Allen’s career was starting (ie, it ended in 1987 and Allen only really dominated the sport from ‘89 onwards). — Shea

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Question:

This race is cancelled.  Per the race director

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In June there is a sprint distance triathlon put on by the Tysons (Athletic) Club in McLean, VA. It usually is put on the third weekend of June with distances of 400yd pool swim, 16 mile bike, 5k run. Tucker Newberry

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I’ll admit this is plagiarism….I stole it off a basketball poster in my 10 year old son’s room:     "The harder I work, the luckier I get." I’ve found it applies even when your 40 years old. Tim

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As seen in some running commercial : Pain is nothing compared to the feeling of giving up.

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How about: The harder the stone, the sharper the blade.

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I believe this event was cancelled.  The letter I got from TriAthlantic says that the costs of the bike course (15 traffic lights, a minimum of 30 police officers) were the main reason. — Steve Noone – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There’s also a tri in Fairfax on May 25.  TriAthlantic is organizing it and the distances are .5 mi./14 mi./5K if I remember correctly.  There are full lists of all the regional events in SportsFocus and Metrosports magazines, both free publications available at bike shops, shoe stores, etc.

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There’s also a tri in Fairfax on May 25.  TriAthlantic is organizing it and the distances are .5 mi./14 mi./5K if I remember correctly.  There are full lists of all the regional events in SportsFocus and Metrosports magazines, both free publications available at bike shops, shoe stores, etc.

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Does anyone know of any sprint distance triathlons in the Northern Virginia, Maryland area during the months of May or June?  I am looking to do a short triathlon before building up to longer distances in July and August.

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Question:

CO2 cartridge stuff [snip]

We have a new product coming out in about a month or so, which is a CO2 cartridge plastic thingy which has a button on it, and is basically air on demand (you push the button and air comes out, take your thumb on the button and air stays in.  It mounts on the frame, we usually mount it in that triangular area at the top of the rear triangle, in front of the brake bridge, behind the seat tube. It allows for a much more controlled air flow into the tire.  But you still have to subjectively determine when the tire is "full". It is made for us by a company that already makes such a device, but has re-engineered it for us, to work better for triathletes (they mainly sell the device to MTB’ers).   QRman

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – CO2 cartridge stuff [snip] We have a new product coming out in about a month or so, which is a CO2 cartridge plastic thingy which has a button on it, and is basically air on demand (you push the button and air comes out, take your thumb on the button and air stays in.  It mounts on the frame, we usually mount it in that triangular area at the top of the rear triangle, in front of the brake bridge, behind the seat tube. It allows for a much more controlled air flow into the tire.  But you still have to subjectively determine when the tire is "full". It is made for us by a company that already makes such a device, but has re-engineered it for us, to work better for triathletes (they mainly sell the device to MTB’ers). QRman

I’ll buy one.  Let us know when they are available. Neal Silver Spring, MD

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There are also several models available from Performance… I think the smallest unit might be a trick to operate though because it takes both hands to twist the on/off valve which makes it hard to check tire pressure at the same time… Additionally, the screw-threaded cart. are hard to find inlocal stores and very expensive. Dan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Newsgroups: rec.sport.triathlon CO2 cartridge stuff [snip] We have a new product coming out in about a month or so, which is a CO2 cartridge plastic thingy which has a button on it, and is basically air on demand (you push the button and air comes out, take your thumb on the button and air stays in.  It mounts on the frame, we usually mount it in that triangular area at the top of the rear triangle, in front of the brake bridge, behind the seat tube. It allows for a much more controlled air flow into the tire.   But you still have to subjectively determine when the tire is "full". It is made for us by a company that already makes such a device, but has re-engineered it for us, to work better for triathletes (they mainly sell the device to MTB’ers). QRman I’ll buy one.  Let us know when they are available. Neal Silver Spring, MD

Emerging Technology Services    - innovative mechanical product development    - software application development/management

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: There are also several models available from Performance… I think : the smallest unit might be a trick to operate though because it : takes both hands to twist the on/off valve which makes it hard to : check tire pressure at the same time… I ordered my inflator from Nytro for $9.99.  It’s a 90 degree inflator, so works for tri-spokes, discs, etc.  The only downside is that it needs threaded cartridges.  However, it’s TINY and takes up next to no space.   : Additionally, the screw-threaded cart. are hard to find inlocal : stores and very expensive. That, however, is true.  I get mine at the local Performance shop.  $7.99 plus tax for 3 16g cartrdiges.  Anyone have a cheap source for these? After my first road flat last week (during my first century, with my first crash…) I guess my luck has run out after a couple of years.  Better stock up now… Jason, yes I now carry tools on training rides, in VA — Jason Mayfield Arlington, VA http://dufus.westga.edu/~zooropa Sick & Twisted Site of the Day: http://dufus.westga.edu/~zooropa/sick.html 48 Days Until Ironman Canada

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I’ve now completed my first two sprint distance tri’s.  I love this sport more and more every day I train.  But, I’m having a hard time judging where I’m at in regards to descent times – overall, and in all three stages individually. What are descent times for the swim, bike and run legs of: 1K/20K/5K ? 1.5K/40K/10K ? My run is so weak that it pulls my total times down.  I think I’m doing okay on the bike and swim but don’t have anything to measure against – help!

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Does anyone know how much air is a CO2 cartridge?   Can I fill my 120 psi clinchers without fear of blowing up my only spare tube?  How do you know how much air is in the tire?  Any insght would be helpful. Paul

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   Does anyone know how much air is a CO2 cartridge?   Can I fill my 120    psi clinchers without fear of blowing up my only spare tube?  How do    you know how much air is in the tire?  Any insght would be helpful. The type I use fill a 700*23 tire to about 105 PSI, you could always test yours by filling a tire an checking its pressure.  By the way, its pretty tough to blow a good tire off the rim, I’ve hit 150 psi with a Silica track pump and nothing happened.  

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I’ve generally gone by the somewhat unscientifically tested belief that a C02 cart equals aprx 10lbs or air per gram. Hence, a 12-gram cart would put about 120 pounds in your tire provided you didn’t let half of it leak in the air up process. As long as your tire is properly seated in the rim bead before you start putting the air in, you shouldn’t have to worry about blowing the tire off the rim. I use a whole 16grm cart on my Conti GPs and have never blown one off yet. The best thing to do, though, is get a feel for the proper pressure via the touch method and use that as your guide if you don’t have a gauge.

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Question:

<<Congradulations on your honest assesment of your 2nd edition publishing in Inside Triathlon. You do great work that even the everyday athlete can use. Thanks. I hope we’ve got this straight; the negative book review (which I wrote) was for "The High Performance Heart" published by Bicycle Books. I like the way "In Fitness and in Health" came out because it’s uncensored. Philip Maffetone

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Thanks.   I hope we’ve got this straight; the negative book review (which I wrote) was for "The High Performance Heart" published by Bicycle Books. I like the way "In Fitness and in Health" came out because it’s uncensored. Philip Maffetone

—-notice how he signs his name——- so to those of you calling Dr. Philip Maffetone a quack…get off it. HE is not the one shoving the Dr. title down our throats. He is, and has been, an active and positive participant of this group. I think the name calling that has been going on is not only unacceptable,   but childish and unsportmanlike.   He has his opinions.  Take them or leave them….as we do for anyone else in this group.  Its a waste of valuable bandwidth to criticize unconstructively. I for one have found his writings and recommendations very useful. I’ve been wanting to spout this off for several days, but our gateway’s been doing something weird (again). Welcome Back Doc! jo Redondo Beach, CA

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I don’t know if he’s a quack but I don’t beleive his nutrition ideas are sound.  Way too high in fat.  His comparisons with the "mediterannean" diet are kind of silly since he’s not taking into account cultural differences.  I think his real reason for success is it allows people to eat alot of the same crap they’ve always eaten.

        I’m not real sure what part of Dr. Maffetone’s dietary suggestions you have been reading but the fat he prescribes is not crap. He suggests that you eat foods that are not deep fried or hydrogenated. This eliminates almost all food that most people consider "junk". Instead he suggests that people eat foods like fish, meat, and vegetables in which the fats can be used productively and not simply stored as cellulite on your ass. If I am misinterpreting this info, please, someone correct me. T.J. Fry :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: T.J. Fry                    :"If a child asks why it is raining, a cute Clemson University          : thing to tell them is "God is crying", and                             : tell them is " It was probably something                              : that you did".-DEEP THOUGHTS by Jack Handy :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

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You can easily find hundreds of research papers that will support anything you care to name. The athletes you are talking about do well but what will be the effect of so much fat furhter down the road. Dr. Maffetone himself discounts his book due to some editorial problems so I don’t think I would take it as the bible.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, <<1. Why take EFA’s at 2gm of fat (in four capsules, I might add), if I can drink 1 Tbsp. of extra virgin olive oil, and get 14gm of fat? NOTE: I have always had a problem keeping weight on, once I start heavy training. I did Ironman in’92 on a 4.5% body fat….UGH!  I want to be strong this year, so far, so good…no weight loss, but I still need to increase my percentage. I always prefer the real thing (extra virgin olive oil) over a supplement when possible. For those who travel, the capsules are more realistic, and you won’t have to worry about mixing up your water bottle with your olive oil bottle. <<2. Also, I’m 35; I’ve figured out my AT is 160 for biking, and 167 for running, and my MAX HR is 180…do you agree with this?  So many different formulas are out there to confuse us! It’s hard to answer that without knowing more infomation. Generally, I don’t look at AT, but what I call maximum aerobic levels which are slightly lower. The best advice is to be conservative with your training heart rate. You’re in a sport which requires mostly aerobic power, so most of your training should be the same. As long as you can run (bike or swim) faster at the same heart rate as time goes on, you’re doing well. Also, if you can get your RER (RQ) done at a lab, you’ll get some good information (if it’s done right). Philip Maffetone

I cannot beleive that you actually drink OLive Oil which is pure fat!!!!!!

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I cannot beleive that you actually drink OLive Oil which is pure fat!!!!!!

"fat" is not a four-letter word.  What else can you put on your salad? Doesn’t taste count for anything?  Is food really just a treatment? Kazez

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Hi, I was wondering if it was safe to come back? Philip Maffetone

You know the old saying, "If you can’t take the heat….. I’m sure, though, that you became accustomed to "flames" long before there was such a term!  I personally loved hearing about your 40-30-30 diet, since it meant I only need to reduce my fat intake about 20% rather than down to that ridiculous 10 or 20.  I mean, how could I possibly enjoy my ribs or buffalo wings on such a diet?!? On an unrelated note, since I believe one of your pupils is racing there, do you know the date of the Pan Am. race and any TV coverage?   Marty

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Sorry! This would be great, but fat is fat when it comes to calories. Have too much and it all, olive oil or ice cream, will be stored as adipose tissue. For that matter, an excess of protein, carbohydrates, or alcohol will do the same (just at different rates).  

I disagree.  Fat is not fat.  Omega 3 or 6 fatty acids are a far cry hydrogentated oils commonly used in "commercial" products (such as margarine).  As far as calorie counting….well, you have a point.  But also consider that calorie counting is not an exact science.  For example, the number of calories an individual burns in any activity is dependent on a number of variables such as lean muscle mass (or lack of), type of activity, climate, etc. kam

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Note: My news server has been slow, so if this is a little out of date my apologies.  Nonetheless, I felt compelled to reply in a posting.   <closed-minded flame deleted from Chuck – an exercise physiologist I originally learned of Maffetone’s training approach when I experienced blood sugar problems in my first half ironman tri. I originally scoffed his ideas and the training methodology. However, I have an open mind and gave them a try.   I successfully completed my first Ironman last year.  I am training faster and better than ever now and hey, Chuck, guess what? I am using much of Maffetone’s "philosophy" in my training.   I researched, asked him questions, tinkered and toyed in my own training.  I like his ideas, I like the style, it works.   As far as his credentials, why are you so threatened by him (inferred by your childish reaction)?  Dr. Maffetone works with top athletes in the sport.  Dr. Maffetone sets a standard of professionalism and courtesy that Chuck could learn from, I think.   Grow up, Chuck.  Act like the professional you claim to be. -Rolf — Rolf Arands, Ph.D.          |                             |

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<<<Dr. Maffetone himself discounts his book due to some editorial problems so I don’t think I would take it as the bible. Also not true. The "negative" book review I wrote was not for "In Fitness and in Health," the book which outlines my whole program. It was for "The High Performance Heart," a book about heart monitors. Philip Maffetone

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I don’t know if he’s a quack but I don’t beleive his nutrition ideas are sound.  Way too high in fat.  His comparisons with the "mediterannean" diet are kind of silly since he’s not taking into account cultural differences.  I think his real reason for success is it allows people to eat alot of the same crap they’ve always eaten.

So how come Wendy Ingraham, Mike Pigg and Mark Allen are all happy to claim they’re using his dietary and training methods?  Based on their performances I’d say he was onto something!  Or perhaps you attribute it to natural talent? Dan.

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| enough of this already.  Maffetone’s a quack with no more credentials | than anyone else.  Recently at a conference of the American College of | Sports Medicine SEVERAL citations of actual real research (not marketing There is no reason to believe that "real reseach" and the truth are the same. Being in an non-complex, mostly linear, exact science myself, namely physics, I still don’t take claims made in articles as the truth. Articles in the scientific press can at best be regarded as part of a debate. If there is a consensus after 1-10 years, then you can regard it a probably the truth. In a complex, non-exact science as physiology, my guess is that you probably have to wait longer. . [text deleted] . | | an exercise physiologist – chuck Are you into reseach yourself ? If you are, it’s a bit surprising to me that you believe anything you may find in the journals or at conferences. Well, sometimes I do it myself if it fits my own opinion. Nobody is perfect.               jarek

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I haven’t seen any posts from Dr. Maffetone.  Are you still here, Dr. M.?  Does anyone know where he has been? Just curious. What a coincidence, right after Dr. Maffetone got flamed for his credentials, we haven’t heard from him on rst. Personally, I hope he rejoins us, because he has volunteered useful advice and I miss it. Cathy Corning Ditto!  Hopefully he will return to the net soon.  I really enjoyed reading his postings.  Fortunately, he also writes for "Inside Triathlon".  I just finished reading his "In Fitness and In Health" book.  Now I know why I was always getting injured eventhough I wasn’t radically increasing mileage … too much anerobic and not enough aerobic workouts.  One month on his plan and I am feeling stronger and faster eventhough most of my workouts are between 133 and 143 heart rate (180 formula).  Works for me! Jim — Jim Pringle                                          - o enough of this already.  Maffetone’s a quack with no more credentials than anyone else.  Recently at a conference of the American College of Sports Medicine SEVERAL citations of actual real research (not marketing ploys) denounced his "ideas".  All he can do is market himself and his athletes, but show me one stitch of research that supports his claims!  If you feel better – great, but dont give him credit.  If anything chalk it up to placebo effect. I called PR bar and got serious run around when I wanted citations of supporting research.  Think before you swallow anything out there in this field.  Remember that these people are preying on the idea that everyone wants to get better, faster, etc…  AND willing to pay for it. Dont let the "Dr" fool you. an exercise physiologist – chuck

I don’t know if he’s a quack but I don’t beleive his nutrition ideas are sound.  Way too high in fat.  His comparisons with the "mediterannean" diet are kind of silly since he’s not taking into account cultural differences.  I think his real reason for success is it allows people to eat alot of the same crap they’ve always eaten.

Response:

Dr. Maffetone I am 48 years of age, and my resting heart rate  is 40 bpm. Last year I took a " Regular Bruce" test to evaluate a arrhythmia. It established my peak max hr as 176 and peak max vo2 as 35ml/kg/min, actual est. vo2 = 49ml/kg/min. Does this information enable me to figure myb anerobic threshold? Thanks for any information. Eric Averill

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – enough of this already.  Maffetone’s a quack with no more credentials than anyone else.  Recently at a conference of the American College of Sports Medicine SEVERAL citations of actual real research (not marketing ploys) denounced his "ideas".  All he can do is market himself and his athletes, but show me one stitch of research that supports his claims!  If you feel better – great, but dont give him credit.  If anything chalk it up to placebo effect. I called PR bar and got serious run around when I wanted citations of supporting research.  Think before you swallow anything out there in this field.  Remember that these people are preying on the idea that everyone wants to get better, faster, etc…  AND willing to pay for it. Dont let the "Dr" fool you. an exercise physiologist – chuck

        Well, chuck, I hate to burst you antagonistic, bitchy little bubble, but pretty much everything you just said was done so without that research that you claim to be so important. To put it a little more bluntly, you are full of shit.         Have you picked up Dr. Maffetone’s book at all? Obviously not, because in the back of his book you would have seen that he lists all of his citations of supported research. After a quick count of how many citations I get 102! This doesn’t even count the number of Doctors and researchers who have publically backed Dr. Maffetone’s ideas(Dr.Sears and Dr. George Sheehan to name two).          As for proof of how his ideas work, why don’t you ask any number of athletes that he works with. For starters, he has worked with Mark Allen since Allen started his pro career back around 1983, and as most people on rst know, Mark has won virtually every high profile race in the world including Nice 10x and Ironman Hawaii 5x. As for other athletes who he has worked with..lets see…Mike Pigg, Tim DeBoom,marathoners Priscilla Welch,Marianne Dickinson and Loraine Moller, car drivers Mario and Michael Andretti, and Tom Seaver(baseball) to name some. If that is what you call no proof or credentials, then your one messed up dude.         And as for calling Dr. Maffetone and quack, well if that is what you call a quack, Then I can only hope to become that "quacked" someday. I appreciate and enjoy any advice Dr. Maffetone wants to give, and I think most of rst enjoys it too. Next time you might want to be a little more cautious about where you shovel your criticisms. Boy, I feel better now! T.J. Fry :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: T.J. Fry                    :"If a child asks why it is raining, a cute Clemson University          : thing to tell them is "God is crying", and                             : tell them is " It was probably something                              : that you did".-DEEP THOUGHTS by Jack Handy :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

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Chuck writes: All he can do is market himself and his athletes, but show me one stitch of research that supports his claims! an exercise physiologist – chuck

Muoio, D.M., Leddy, J.J., Horvath, P.J., Awad, A.B., and Pendergrast, D.R. (1994)  Effect of dietary fat on metabolic adjustments to maximal VO2 and endurance in runners. Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise, 26, (1), 81-88. I am an exercise scientist who has coached runners, cyclists, and triathletes for some time.  I don’t yet have a firm opinion on Maffetones ideas but don’t dismiss them entirely.  The above article is from a paper written by one of my masters candidate students.  He cites many others (21) but I hate typing so you’ll have to look yourself.  One of them is bound to encourage more thought on this subject.  No, I haven’t read any of them and have no authority in this discussion but since you asked for one… Ian

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:lemson.edu Distribution:

: I don’t know if he’s a quack but I don’t beleive his nutrition ideas : are sound.  Way too high in fat.  His comparisons with the "mediterannean" : diet are kind of silly since he’s not taking into account cultural : differences.  I think his real reason for success is it allows people to : eat alot of the same crap they’ve always eaten. : : :       I’m not real sure what part of Dr. Maffetone’s dietary : suggestions you have been reading but the fat he prescribes is not crap. : He suggests that you eat foods that are not deep fried or hydrogenated. : This eliminates almost all food that most people consider "junk". Instead : he suggests that people eat foods like fish, meat, and vegetables in : which the fats can be used productively and not simply stored as : cellulite on your ass. If I am misinterpreting this info, please, someone : correct me. Sorry! This would be great, but fat is fat when it comes to calories. Have too much and it all, olive oil or ice cream, will be stored as adipose tissue. For that matter, an excess of protein, carbohydrates, or alcohol will do the same (just at different rates).   — | Jonathan Acey Albert             | | University of Florida            | | http://nervm.nerdc.ufl.edu/~acey |

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Chuck, Regardless of who is "right," such inflammatory criticism is not constructive.   Ad hominem attacks contribute nothing productive to the discussion. Cory H.

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Hi, <<1. Why take EFA’s at 2gm of fat (in four capsules, I might add), if I can drink 1 Tbsp. of extra virgin olive oil, and get 14gm of fat? NOTE: I have always had a problem keeping weight on, once I start heavy training. I did Ironman in’92 on a 4.5% body fat….UGH!  I want to be strong this year, so far, so good…no weight loss, but I still need to increase my percentage. I always prefer the real thing (extra virgin olive oil) over a supplement when possible. For those who travel, the capsules are more realistic, and you won’t have to worry about mixing up your water bottle with your olive oil bottle. <<2. Also, I’m 35; I’ve figured out my AT is 160 for biking, and 167 for running, and my MAX HR is 180…do you agree with this?  So many different formulas are out there to confuse us! It’s hard to answer that without knowing more infomation. Generally, I don’t look at AT, but what I call maximum aerobic levels which are slightly lower. The best advice is to be conservative with your training heart rate. You’re in a sport which requires mostly aerobic power, so most of your training should be the same. As long as you can run (bike or swim) faster at the same heart rate as time goes on, you’re doing well. Also, if you can get your RER (RQ) done at a lab, you’ll get some good information (if it’s done right). Philip Maffetone

Response:

Chuck writes:

enough of this already.  Maffetone’s a quack with no more credentials than anyone else.  Recently at a conference of the American College of Sports Medicine SEVERAL citations of actual real research (not marketing ploys) denounced his "ideas".  All he can do is market himself and his athletes, but show me one stitch of research that supports his claims!  If you feel better – great, but dont give him credit.  If anything chalk it up to placebo effect. I called PR bar and got serious run around when I wanted citations of supporting research.  Think before you swallow anything out there in this field.  Remember that these people are preying on the idea that everyone wants to get better, faster, etc…  AND willing to pay for it. Dont let the "Dr" fool you. an exercise physiologist – chuck Aha – so the fact that I’m loosing body fat on a 40/30/30 diet should be COMPLETELY ignored!  There are a number of athletes now who claim this works – do you really wanna argue with them?  PLACEBO effect?  Where’s YOUR research that says that just because someone thinks a program is gonna do them good it does!?  You wanna try telling me that 5 days a week of interval training will do me good just cos I believe it!? I admit this is pretty hardcore flaming but those statements of yours, basically, are no more justifiable than Maffetone’s under your own rules!  I challenge YOU to produce evidence to the contrary! Dan.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I haven’t seen any posts from Dr. Maffetone.  Are you still here, Dr. M.?  Does anyone know where he has been? Just curious. What a coincidence, right after Dr. Maffetone got flamed for his credentials, we haven’t heard from him on rst. Personally, I hope he rejoins us, because he has volunteered useful advice and I miss it. Cathy Corning Ditto!  Hopefully he will return to the net soon.  I really enjoyed reading his postings.  Fortunately, he also writes for "Inside Triathlon".  I just finished reading his "In Fitness and In Health" book.  Now I know why I was always getting injured eventhough I wasn’t radically increasing mileage … too much anerobic and not enough aerobic workouts.  One month on his plan and I am feeling stronger and faster eventhough most of my workouts are between 133 and 143 heart rate (180 formula).  Works for me! Jim — Jim Pringle                                          - o

enough of this already.  Maffetone’s a quack with no more credentials than anyone else.  Recently at a conference of the American College of Sports Medicine SEVERAL citations of actual real research (not marketing ploys) denounced his "ideas".  All he can do is market himself and his athletes, but show me one stitch of research that supports his claims!  If you feel better – great, but dont give him credit.  If anything chalk it up to placebo effect. I called PR bar and got serious run around when I wanted citations of supporting research.  Think before you swallow anything out there in this field.  Remember that these people are preying on the idea that everyone wants to get better, faster, etc…  AND willing to pay for it. Dont let the "Dr" fool you. an exercise physiologist – chuck

Response:

I haven’t seen any posts from Dr. Maffetone.  Are you still here, Dr. M.?  Does anyone know where he has been? Just curious. -Rolf — Rolf "Ironman" Arands, Ph.D.|"The world is made for those who are                             |   – Sue Sarandon in BULL DURHAM

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I haven’t seen any posts from Dr. Maffetone.  Are you still here, Dr. M.?  Does anyone know where he has been? Just curious.

What a coincidence, right after Dr. Maffetone got flamed for his credentials, we haven’t heard from him on rst. Personally, I hope he rejoins us, because he has volunteered useful advice and I miss it. Cathy Corning

Response:

Hi, I was wondering if it was safe to come back? Philip Maffetone

Please don’t let a few flames scare you off the list.. I happen to enjoy your insights…your credits are based on successes not initials.. please keep posting and writing for those of us who have open minds and are willing to learn from any source…..Thanks! Andy Hill Hartwick College

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I haven’t seen any posts from Dr. Maffetone.  Are you still here, Dr. M.?  Does anyone know where he has been? Just curious. What a coincidence, right after Dr. Maffetone got flamed for his credentials, we haven’t heard from him on rst. Personally, I hope he rejoins us, because he has volunteered useful advice and I miss it. Cathy Corning

Ditto!  Hopefully he will return to the net soon.  I really enjoyed reading his postings.  Fortunately, he also writes for "Inside Triathlon".  I just finished reading his "In Fitness and In Health" book.  Now I know why I was always getting injured eventhough I wasn’t radically increasing mileage … too much anerobic and not enough aerobic workouts.  One month on his plan and I am feeling stronger and faster eventhough most of my workouts are between 133 and 143 heart rate (180 formula).  Works for me! Jim — Jim Pringle                                          - o

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Yes, I’m still here. Be back on more regularly now that my schedule is more sane. Philip Maffetone

Response:

Hi Doc! Just read your book, and your ideas; I figured if it was good enough for Mark Allen, its good enough for me. I’m a Pro Triathlete (but its not how I make a living, I’m a nurse). I’ve done Ironman Hawaii 6 times, and Canada twice. I’ll be doing both again this year.  Just got a sponsorship with P.R.* Nutrition, which I believe you endorse? Anyway…I have a few questions: 1. Why take EFA’s at 2gm of fat (in four capsules, I might add), if I can drink 1 Tbsp. of extra virgin olive oil, and get 14gm of fat? NOTE: I have always had a problem keeping weight on, once I start heavy training. I did Ironman in’92 on a 4.5% body fat….UGH!  I want to be strong this year, so far, so good…no weight loss, but I still need to increase my percentage. 2. Also, I’m 35; I’ve figured out my AT is 160 for biking, and 167 for running, and my MAX HR is 180…do you agree with this?  So many different formulas are out there to confuse us!

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