Question:

I’m new to triathlons and plan to run my first one this August in Sylvania OH and probably one in Akron OH in September.  I’m using a mountain bike (I got at a going out of businiess sale a couple of years ago cause it loked go more than anything else) and just bought aerobars for it (Haven’t trained with them yet.  Also got a new seat because after an 8 mi training session I realized that the seat that came with it wasn’t going to be something I could put up with.  My first few training sessions I’m going 13-15 mph on level ground up to 20 on a gentle downslope at about 80-90 RPM. I’m assuming I’ll get faster with a couple of months training.(?) My question is:  What’s a good, reasonably(?) priced (<$400) bike that I can plan on saving up for next year and can upgrade as money permits.

Response:

Hey Tim, welcome to the world of triathlon. You’ll get a million different answers to your question – this isn’t an easily answered one, and you left it pretty wide open. Here’s my input – add it to the list you’ll get. Take what you like, leave the rest. I’m probably gonna ramble so just take this as stream of consciousiness stuff. First – you might want to make sure you enjoy triathlon before spending money on a tri bike. Get a few under your belt on your mtn bike before spending the $$ on a new bike. I did my first 3 on a mtn bike. Even highly seasoned athletes are always adjusting what they think they want in a bike – years later I’m riding on a bike I never thought I’d want for tris – a pure road bike – but it’s the best thing for me yet! Take a look around at the transition areas in your first few tris to get an idea of what to buy and what’s available. Often you’ll see bikes with a "for sale" sign on them at events. Since most of your riding is training riding, where you won’t be faced with the demands of racing/aerobars/forward postioning, and only a little of actual racing, you might steer towards a comfortable road bike that can be adapted for racing. Later on, if you really like triathlons (and have $$), you can wind up with a tricked out, forward position racing bike and a highly comfortable road bike as well. (that’s what I do). A bike’s major performance characteristics come from its frame – if that’s built for what you want the rest of the bike is extra goodies. For $400 you’re not going to get a whole lot of fancy things on your bike (I have a seatpost and saddle worth almost that much) – and a standard road bike, because of the supply/demand thing, is probably what you’re going to find in that price range. Tri-goodies are pricey – more of a niche market. Get yourself a good Cannondale or Trek frame, and for races move the saddle forward and put on aerobars. On the other side of things – something you can buy now that will give you years of good use – and always give you a speed boost – a wetsuit! I’m still using the first one I bought (QR longjohn), probably 7 years or more ago. I’ve had at least that many bikes. I’d say overall, enjoy your first few races, and look around. You’re going to change what you think you want in a bike anyway – might as wait till you’re a bit more enlightened as to what you might want. Get a wetsuit in the meantime. Hope this helps some, or at least helps to confuse.

Response:

Question:

 I gotta ask…how many of you have actually attended an ITU triathlon race and watched it up close?  It’s actually kind of interesting to see the difference vs. non-draft races.  My first was the the ITU Toronto World Cup race which I thoroughly enjoyed (…and I remember Rob Roller, Julie Leach, and Kurt Madden, etc.).

I saw St Anthony’s.  Definately interesting to see the differences, but overall not much more fun than watching my sneakers dry. tim(dogspot1) buaidh no bas

Response:

and most race directors discovered that the swim course became difficult to manage if it was the last leg.  Like keeping lifeguards out there for a much extended period of time.  And asking law enforcement officers to patrol the swim course for more than an hour.

Exactly – it would be more like a three hour stretch for the average wave start age-group tri.   Volunteers on the bike and run course needn’t maintain anywhere near the level of alertness a lifeguard needs, especially for a group open water swim.  Most pools don’t leave a lifeguard on station for more than 15 minutes at a time.

Response:

The swim really is the most dangerous?  How is that calculated?  By the number of triathletes drowning or just getting sick from bacteria–not to lessen the severity of the latter?  Cycling can be quite dangerous. Running–low risk for death from running itself. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Better change would be to eliminate drafting.  The swim has historically come first because of safety concerns. It is easier to keep an eye on everyone when they all start at the same time. The swim is the most dangerous of the 3 events and has the greatest impact on insurance preimums. Hope that clears things up for you. Why not change the order to cycle/swim/run?

Response:

The swim really is the most dangerous?  How is that calculated?  By the number of triathletes drowning or just getting sick from bacteria–not to lessen the severity of the latter?  Cycling can be quite dangerous. Running–low risk for death from running itself.

Both are dangerous sports. Bike crashes are usually "spectacular", with people knowing immediately that the cyclist is in trouble. Swimming is different; the organizers must use kayakers and lifeguards with a vigilant eye on every swimmer out there. Why? Because, unlike cycling, a swimmer can just slip under the water and drown without anyone knowing. Ask any organizer, and they can probably tell you what a headache the swim is during the race, trying to take account of everyone entering and (hopefully) exiting the water. Anyway, I’d rather cramp while cycling than cramp while swimming; cramping can even drown an experienced swimmer in the middle of the open water. You can just stop or coast on the bike when cramped. Might as well start triathletes off fresh than tired with the swim.                           |26      | IMC’96: 10:36:37          |   Fe   |   IMC’99: 10:45:03          |        |                  "THE BEST ELEMENT OF RACING"

Response:

Safety was a concern in the beginning, but other issues quickly loomed large.  The first was how to deal adequately with the finish of the race. A few events tried swim/run/bike (like the Texas Triathlon in College Station), but most discovered the finish line gets kind of hairy when three or four bikers start to sprint for the line at 25 mph +.  So, bike finishes quickly lost favor.  The choice then was swim or run, and most race directors discovered that the swim course became difficult to manage if it was the last leg.  Like keeping lifeguards out there for a much extended period of time.  And asking law enforcement officers to patrol the swim course for more than an hour.  And then there was the issue of other user groups for the body of water;  somehow, speedboats and Jetskis just didn’t mix well with open water swims. A few races did do the run/bike/swim format.  Ones that ended in a pool were most common;  an example is the kids triathlon staged each year at the St. Anthony’s race.  The workable format involves swimming down one lane, ducking under the lane line and swimming back up the next.  But the length of the swim is limited by the length and number of lanes in the pool (8 lanes, 25 yards, means your race can have a 200 yard swim at best).  And then there is one of the sport’s longest running events:  the Cypress Gardens Sertoma Triathlon (begun in 1979).  I talked to a recent participant the other day, and she said it still begins with a mass start three-mile run, followed by an eight-mile bike, and then a quarter-mile swim.  The organizer controls the entire venue, which makes it do-able – but it still is a pretty wild format (the run doesn’t separate things very much for the bike). One of the early ultras also had a run/bike/swim format.  The Rocky Mountain Triathlon in Estes Park, Colorado began with a marathon (on trails at 8,000+ feet, no less), then followed with an 80-mile bike and finished with a two-mile swim in a pool.  But even though people got pretty spread out and the fields weren’t huge, room in the pool got to be dicey.  And you really needed a lap counter for each swimmer.  The race disappeared by 1983 or so. Lew Kidder – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am by no means an expert, but I was always under the impression that it was a mainly safety oriented issue.  For example, if you’re going to crash (ie physically, not like on the bike) during an IM, its likely going to be closer to the end.  Therefore, while youre fresh, you swim (where if you pooped out or cramped you might drown), then the bike (where if you pooped out or cramped, you could crash at high speed), then run where you’d simply fall over.  Again, that was simply my impression of it. Before you buy.

Response:

Sorry, I don’t follow you. X games? I was talking about Beach Volleyball. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …and the X Games are the real test of ones athletic abilities???? — Rick Loggins I guess I need to think of it the way I do volleyball. To somebody outside the sport, indoor and beach volleyball are the same sport. Many excel at both, but to me, beach is the only REAL volleyball. Indoor is something you do to stay in shape for the beach season if you have to. I have learned to let the people who think that indoor is better live the lie that is their life <g. I guess I can do the same for draft-legal tri fans. Tom I disagree.  Its not a poor example, its an alternative style of triathlon. One which some people like and enjoy.  It requires different tactics and a different style of racing.  Some people enjoy this style, just as some people like IM to the total exclusion of all else. Personally I’m getting a little sick of the bagging of draft legal triathlons. If you don’t like it don’t race in them. But for Gods sake stop whinging about it. Surely you’ve got better things to do with your time. AJ Most triathlons prohibit drafting on the bike leg.  The Olympic triathlon was a poor example of triathlon.

Response:

I am by no means an expert, but I was always under the impression that it was a mainly safety oriented issue.  For example, if you’re going to crash (ie physically, not like on the bike) during an IM, its likely going to be closer to the end.  Therefore, while youre fresh, you swim (where if you pooped out or cramped you might drown), then the bike (where if you pooped out or cramped, you could crash at high speed), then run where you’d simply fall over.  Again, that was simply my impression of it. Before you buy.

Response:

…and the X Games are the real test of ones athletic abilities???? — Rick Loggins

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I guess I need to think of it the way I do volleyball. To somebody outside the sport, indoor and beach volleyball are the same sport. Many excel at both, but to me, beach is the only REAL volleyball. Indoor is something you do to stay in shape for the beach season if you have to. I have learned to let the people who think that indoor is better live the lie that is their life <g. I guess I can do the same for draft-legal tri fans. Tom I disagree.  Its not a poor example, its an alternative style of triathlon. One which some people like and enjoy.  It requires different tactics and a different style of racing.  Some people enjoy this style, just as some people like IM to the total exclusion of all else. Personally I’m getting a little sick of the bagging of draft legal triathlons. If you don’t like it don’t race in them. But for Gods sake stop whinging about it. Surely you’ve got better things to do with your time. AJ Most triathlons prohibit drafting on the bike leg.  The Olympic triathlon was a poor example of triathlon.

Response:

Details, details! Yes. But I’ll still take my volleyball with sand and my tris without drafting. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Didn’t indoor come first? I guess I need to think of it the way I do volleyball. To somebody outside the sport, indoor and beach volleyball are the same sport. Many excel at both, but to me, beach is the only REAL volleyball. Indoor is something you do to stay in shape for the beach season if you have to. I have learned to let the people who think that indoor is better live the lie that is their life <g. I guess I can do the same for draft-legal tri fans. Tom I disagree.  Its not a poor example, its an alternative style of triathlon. One which some people like and enjoy.  It requires different tactics and a different style of racing.  Some people enjoy this style, just as some people like IM to the total exclusion of all else. Personally I’m getting a little sick of the bagging of draft legal triathlons. If you don’t like it don’t race in them. But for Gods sake stop whinging about it. Surely you’ve got better things to do with your time. AJ Most triathlons prohibit drafting on the bike leg.  The Olympic triathlon was a poor example of triathlon.

Response:

Better change would be to eliminate drafting.  The swim has historically come first because of safety concerns. It is easier to keep an eye on everyone when they all start at the same time. The swim is the most dangerous of the 3 events and has the greatest impact on insurance preimums. Hope that clears things up for you. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why not change the order to cycle/swim/run?

Response:

Most triathlons prohibit drafting on the bike leg.  The Olympic triathlon was a poor example of triathlon. I disagree.  Its not a poor example,

Yes it is a poor example.  Better than 99% of us Triathletes compete in non-drafting races, the olympic triathlon is a rare breed.  Kind of like if a person had only seen 1 bike race and it was Track pursuit(sp) and thought this is what all cycling was about.  An intertesting sport but not a great example of Cycling in general. its an alternative style of triathlon.   One which some people like and enjoy.  It requires different tactics and a different style of racing.  Some people enjoy this style, just as some people like IM to the total exclusion of all else.

"an alternative style of triathlon" is a good way to describe it.  Nothing wrong with it except that it sponges off of Triathlon in general and keeps real Triathlon from being a olympic event which is a great shame IMO. Personally I’m getting a little sick of the bagging of draft legal triathlons.

Yes the subject is getting to be a little tired but since the olympic race just finished it’s understandable that it has resurfaced with a vengence. Personally I’m getting alot sick of people justifying the inclusion of triathlon into the olympics in its current format,  I’ve noticed many of the big supporters of this format have interesting motives for their opinions, such as significant others who race the format, financialinterest ect… If you don’t like it don’t race in them.  

I won’t and yet the races still effect me directely.  The above mentioned "sponging" issue,  new racers who feel free to draft because they saw it in the olmpics are just are just 2 ways how this is true. But for Gods sake stop whinging about it. Surely you’ve got better things to do with your time. AJ

I’m sure God is on my side on this issue. (joke).   However if me and the previous poster are whining just what is it you are doing?  I can almost hear your screech "But for Gods sake…" As far as the origanal question posted I believe swim/ride/run is the format due mostly to safety reasons,  though it seems(to me) that in a draft-legal race a alternative to this order would be a very good idea tim(dogspot1) buaidh no bas

Response:

I guess I need to think of it the way I do volleyball. To somebody outside the sport, indoor and beach volleyball are the same sport. Many excel at both, but to me, beach is the only REAL volleyball. Indoor is something you do to stay in shape for the beach season if you have to. I have learned to let the people who think that indoor is better live the lie that is their life <g. I guess I can do the same for draft-legal tri fans. Tom – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I disagree.  Its not a poor example, its an alternative style of triathlon. One which some people like and enjoy.  It requires different tactics and a different style of racing.  Some people enjoy this style, just as some people like IM to the total exclusion of all else. Personally I’m getting a little sick of the bagging of draft legal triathlons. If you don’t like it don’t race in them. But for Gods sake stop whinging about it. Surely you’ve got better things to do with your time. AJ Most triathlons prohibit drafting on the bike leg.  The Olympic triathlon was a poor example of triathlon.

Response:

Didn’t indoor come first?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I guess I need to think of it the way I do volleyball. To somebody outside the sport, indoor and beach volleyball are the same sport. Many excel at both, but to me, beach is the only REAL volleyball. Indoor is something you do to stay in shape for the beach season if you have to. I have learned to let the people who think that indoor is better live the lie that is their life <g. I guess I can do the same for draft-legal tri fans. Tom I disagree.  Its not a poor example, its an alternative style of triathlon. One which some people like and enjoy.  It requires different tactics and a different style of racing.  Some people enjoy this style, just as some people like IM to the total exclusion of all else. Personally I’m getting a little sick of the bagging of draft legal triathlons. If you don’t like it don’t race in them. But for Gods sake stop whinging about it. Surely you’ve got better things to do with your time. AJ Most triathlons prohibit drafting on the bike leg.  The Olympic triathlon was a poor example of triathlon.

Response:

I disagree.  Its not a poor example, its an alternative style of triathlon.   One which some people like and enjoy.  It requires different tactics and a different style of racing.  Some people enjoy this style, just as some people like IM to the total exclusion of all else. Personally I’m getting a little sick of the bagging of draft legal triathlons.   If you don’t like it don’t race in them.   But for Gods sake stop whinging about it. Surely you’ve got better things to do with your time. AJ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Most triathlons prohibit drafting on the bike leg.  The Olympic triathlon was a poor example of triathlon.

Response:

Aside from the fact that most real triathlons don’t allow drafting, the thermal shock of jumping into cold water after a hard ride and the possible cramping would be reason enough. However, can you imagine how hard it is to pull a wetsuit over a sweaty body? Phil

| Hi triathletes/fans.. | | I’ve watched a few on TV, but never really paid much attention till I stayed | up late to watch the Olympic triathlon. One thought struck me – | Having watched loads of Tour de France etc, it’s clear that a pack of | cyclists can always reel in a solo/small group breakaway if they want to. | Doesn’t this devalue the triathlon swim somewhat? A great swimmer might take | a 30-second lead, but would have little or no hope of keeping it during the | ride. | Why not change the order to cycle/swim/run? | It would make the first transition a lot of fun, but I reckon it would make | the swim as significant as it deserves to be. | | Cheers | | Glenn | | |

Response:

    I gotta ask…how many of you have actually attended an ITU triathlon race and watched it up close?  It’s actually kind of interesting to see the difference vs. non-draft races.  My first was the the ITU Toronto World Cup race which I thoroughly enjoyed (…and I remember Rob Roller, Julie Leach, and Kurt Madden, etc.). Bill

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi triathletes/fans.. I’ve watched a few on TV, but never really paid much attention till I stayed up late to watch the Olympic triathlon. One thought struck me – Having watched loads of Tour de France etc, it’s clear that a pack of cyclists can always reel in a solo/small group breakaway if they want to. Doesn’t this devalue the triathlon swim somewhat? A great swimmer might take a 30-second lead, but would have little or no hope of keeping it during the ride. In REAL triathlons there are no packs – drafting is not allowed.  What you saw was the made-for-TV version.  The IOC thinks you are too stupid to understand the time penalties involved in anti-drafting enforcement.

Response:

Most triathlons prohibit drafting on the bike leg.  The Olympic triathlon was a poor example of triathlon.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi triathletes/fans.. I’ve watched a few on TV, but never really paid much attention till I stayed up late to watch the Olympic triathlon. One thought struck me – Having watched loads of Tour de France etc, it’s clear that a pack of cyclists can always reel in a solo/small group breakaway if they want to. Doesn’t this devalue the triathlon swim somewhat? A great swimmer might take a 30-second lead, but would have little or no hope of keeping it during the ride. Why not change the order to cycle/swim/run? It would make the first transition a lot of fun, but I reckon it would make the swim as significant as it deserves to be. Cheers Glenn

Response:

Hi triathletes/fans.. I’ve watched a few on TV, but never really paid much attention till I stayed up late to watch the Olympic triathlon. One thought struck me – Having watched loads of Tour de France etc, it’s clear that a pack of cyclists can always reel in a solo/small group breakaway if they want to. Doesn’t this devalue the triathlon swim somewhat? A great swimmer might take a 30-second lead, but would have little or no hope of keeping it during the ride. Why not change the order to cycle/swim/run? It would make the first transition a lot of fun, but I reckon it would make the swim as significant as it deserves to be. Cheers Glenn

Response:

Hi triathletes/fans.. I’ve watched a few on TV, but never really paid much attention till I stayed up late to watch the Olympic triathlon. One thought struck me – Having watched loads of Tour de France etc, it’s clear that a pack of cyclists can always reel in a solo/small group breakaway if they want to. Doesn’t this devalue the triathlon swim somewhat? A great swimmer might take a 30-second lead, but would have little or no hope of keeping it during the ride.

In REAL triathlons there are no packs – drafting is not allowed.  What you saw was the made-for-TV version.  The IOC thinks you are too stupid to understand the time penalties involved in anti-drafting enforcement.

Response:

Question:

Check CrossTrack

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi , Iam sure would have come up many many times.. yet again. : ) Could anyone suggest a  freeware for logging runs. I searched for some… but I really dont want to pay 45bucks just to keep track of my runs. Regards. Vishwas

Response:

I use the program Runotes…you install it on your hard drive and it has several features that get the job done:  you can get it at it’s website http://pessoal.portoweb.com.br/runnotes/english.htm       Good Luck!!                                     ——Chad—-Keep on Running

Response:

i also use run notes and can recomend it 100% simon

Response:

kicksports.com has a great log, even though it is in beta. It is also a great site in general for running. Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

Check CrossTrack

I can also recommend Crosstrak. It’s the best piece of loggingsoftware I’ve seen. It has got support for HRM. www.crosstrak.com Regards Torkel

Response:

Does anyone know of any types of log software that works with a PalmPilot?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I use the program Runotes…you install it on your hard drive and it has several features that get the job done:  you can get it at it’s website http://pessoal.portoweb.com.br/runnotes/english.htm       Good Luck!!                                     ——Chad—-Keep on Running

Response:

There’s a $8 shareware application for the Macintosh called Exercise Log. Perform a web search to find the URL for it. Gary – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi , Iam sure would have come up many many times.. yet again. : ) Could anyone suggest a  freeware for logging runs. I searched for some… but I really dont want to pay 45bucks just to keep track of my runs. Regards. Vishwas

Response:

Visit the software page on the Runner’s Web. Ken – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – http://www.kicksports.com/  has a good online running log;  look for the line that says "Beta test our online running log"…  it keeps track of your yearly distance and time, as well as weekly.  Also has good advice for beginning runners like me!  (BTW, that was a suggestion from someone in this ng…  another newbie hooked!  Look for that toaster, Mike!) Pegi Hi , Iam sure would have come up many many times.. yet again. : ) Could anyone suggest a  freeware for logging runs. I searched for some… but I really dont want to pay 45bucks just to keep track of my runs. Regards. Vishwas

Ken Parker Runner’s Web www.runnersweb.com/running.html A running and triathlon resource site. Mail List Community : http://www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/RunnersWeb

Response:

Hi , Iam sure would have come up many many times.. yet again. : ) Could anyone suggest a  freeware for logging runs. I searched for some… but I really dont want to pay 45bucks just to keep track of my runs. Regards. Vishwas

  vpandian.vcf

< 1K Download

Response:

http://www.kicksports.com/  has a good online running log;  look for the line that says "Beta test our online running log"…  it keeps track of your yearly distance and time, as well as weekly.  Also has good advice for beginning runners like me!  (BTW, that was a suggestion from someone in this ng…  another newbie hooked!  Look for that toaster, Mike!) Pegi – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi , Iam sure would have come up many many times.. yet again. : ) Could anyone suggest a  freeware for logging runs. I searched for some… but I really dont want to pay 45bucks just to keep track of my runs. Regards. Vishwas

Response:

Question:

Going to be in Texas this summer and plan on going to Lubbock for Buffalo Springs.  Any info would be greatly appreciated, especially about the course itself. Thanks- Chase

Response:

Going to be in Texas this summer and plan on going to Lubbock for Buffalo Springs.  Any info would be greatly appreciated, especially about the course itself.

Just got my application in the mail on Friday.  The entry fee has jumped from $45 last year to $75 this year.  So much for the "best value in triathlon", Mike Greer’s plugging point for the past several years. As for the course expect heat, wind, and hills.  It a pretty good race I have done it each year since it has been a half.  I will be there also, email if you want more specific information Todd Thanks- Chase

– Todd Gerlach IBM Austin AIX Support Team                    __o       o    

Response:

Question:

I recently started using a polar HRM to improve the quality of my triathlon training (running, cycling). As I learned from the little booklet that came with the device, all intensities of the exersices are related to the maximum hart rate. They also suggested that since the theoretical value of 120-age may not be sufficiently accurate for performance athletes, I should check my maximum hart beating rate. Here comes the problem: Whatever I try (two times 1 km at max speed, 800 m or all-out dash) my heart does not seem to be able to better a value of 171 bpm. According to all the tables, this means that I am 50 years old. You can imagine my disturbance when I tell you that I was born in 1968. What is wrong with me?

Response:

… Here comes the problem: Whatever I try (two times 1 km at max speed, 800 m or all-out dash) my heart does not seem to be able to better a value of 171 bpm. According to all the tables, this means that I am 50 years old. You can imagine my disturbance when I tell you that I was born in 1968. What is wrong with me?

Most likely nothing, as you get into better cv shape it becomes harder to reach max heart rate. Also those formula are vague generalities, grt your max heart rate and VO2 max check by a professional to find out your true numbers TriRef

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here comes the problem: Whatever I try (two times 1 km at max speed, 800 m or all-out dash) my heart does not seem to be able to better a value of 171 bpm. According to all the tables, this means that I am 50 years old. You can imagine my disturbance when I tell you that I was born in 1968. What is wrong with me? I’m 50 (or so), and I have the maximum heart rate (MHR)of a 60 year old. Some other 50 year old will likely have the MHR of a 40 year old. Any predictions of MHR are subject to a reasonable standard deviation. I use a Training Heart-Rate chart (which was published in the MAY 1993 Running Times) as my bible. It’s a nomograph which relates resting heart rate (RHR) to MHR, and provides a corresponding training heart rate for 60% through 100% in 5% increments. Assume a MHR of 170 and a RHR of 50. The graph returns the following target heart rates: 65%=128; 70%=134; 75%=141; 80%=146; 85%=152; 90%=158; 95%=164. The April, May and June 1993 issues of Running Times were devoted to HRM traning. The graph is especially useful for determining target heart rate, especially to make adjustments as the resting pulse rate improves with continued training. Denny  8~}

Remember that predictions are just that. Not only should you expect "reasonable deviation",  obviuosly you should accept what is true in practice.   MHR tables are designed to fit the population, not a single individual.  If you are an extreme outlier this may give you something to think about or investigate, but doesn’t necessarily indicate a problem.  Start tracking you heart rate in workouts (graph it) and use this to evaluate your training, not some statistical measure. JWH 96

Response:

Here comes the problem: Whatever I try (two times 1 km at max speed, 800 m or all-out dash) my heart does not seem to be able to better a value of 171 bpm. According to all the tables, this means that I am 50 years old. You can imagine my disturbance when I tell you that I was born in 1968. What is wrong with me?

I’m 50 (or so), and I have the maximum heart rate (MHR)of a 60 year old. Some other 50 year old will likely have the MHR of a 40 year old. Any predictions of MHR are subject to a reasonable standard deviation. I use a Training Heart-Rate chart (which was published in the MAY 1993 Running Times) as my bible. It’s a nomograph which relates resting heart rate (RHR) to MHR, and provides a corresponding training heart rate for 60% through 100% in 5% increments. Assume a MHR of 170 and a RHR of 50. The graph returns the following target heart rates: 65%=128; 70%=134; 75%=141; 80%=146; 85%=152; 90%=158; 95%=164. The April, May and June 1993 issues of Running Times were devoted to HRM traning. The graph is especially useful for determining target heart rate, especially to make adjustments as the resting pulse rate improves with continued training. Denny  8~}

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Here comes the problem:

Whatever I try (two times 1 km at max speed, 800 m or all-out dash) my heart does not seem to be able to better a value of 171 bpm. According to all the tables, this means that I am 50 years old. << First, I’d try a more intense workout to test MHR.  Something along the order of 4-8 X 800m, not allowing recovery to go below 70% of …, oh, well, just don’t sit around for 5 minutes between reps. Second, even if you don’t go higher than 171, don’t sweat it.  Charts and graphs and formulas can only take you so far. Perceived excersion has a lot to be said for it. Mike Stewart

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writes: Here comes the problem: Whatever I try (two times 1 km at max speed, 800 m or all-out dash) my heart does not seem to be able to better a value of 171 bpm. According to all the tables, this means that I am 50 years old. You can imagine my disturbance when I tell you that I was born in 1968. What is wrong with me?

I recommend running a little further to try to get your rate up higher.   To determine my max I ran a mile.  Taking my fastest known mile time, I ran the first 1/4 at 80% pace, the second 1/4 at 90%, third 1/4 at 100% pace, then the last lap as fast as possible.  I hit a max of 203, and I was also born in 1968. Since then I have exceeded this max only once, and it was in an all out short race which ended on a long hill.  I hit 206 this time. Anytime you try to find your max it is a good idea to have someone nearby in case your heart decides not to cooperate. Good luck, Neal HawaiiSportsNet http://planet-hawaii.com/~raceplc

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Question:

: Having followed this thread for a while now, I think I have a pretty good : idea of what is meant by "Clydesdale Athlete", but could someone explain : to me where this somewhat weird expression comes from? A Clydesdale is a breed of horse.  These horses are very large and powerful.  Some folks may recall seeing them pulling a huge beer wagon on (I think) Budweiser commercials. Dave LaPorte

I can second that. Last week I was visiting Sea World in Orlando when the Clydesdale-drawn Bud Wagon came rolling by. Man, those critters are BIG up close. Mike Tennent WebRunner Running Page — Southeast USA Race Calendar 200+ listings. Advertise your race. FTP Race Apps, FAQ http://www.webrunner.com/webrun/running/running.html

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A Clydesdale is a breed of draft horse that has very distinctive markings.  It also has one quality that is very benificial to pulling lots of weight: it is BIG.

Check the rec.running FAQ part 8, there is even a clydesdale runners list. Of course, you need to weigh a couple of stones before you’re admitted though. If you pose your question there, they will answer your question even more extensively. Wout

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I really don’t know when or where the term originally was used to refer to triathletes who are substantially larger than average.  Perhaps someone else can help out there. John,

I don’t know if Tim Bergstressor started it for runners, but he is the Team Captain for the Clydesdale Virtual Racing Team.  There is a mailing list that is very supportive and informative for Clydes.  There is also a homepage that is good, email Tim for the URL.  It does have a file on If you are interested, Tim even had CVRT shirts and singlets made up, they are really cool, and I always get a positive comment on them at races. If you join the list, there is a good chance you will start losing weight!   Many of us have, in fact, before Darryl, I was sure I was the biggest triathlete. Regards, Lee http://www.slip.net/~leeway/

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Darryl, please through your considerable weight (influence and physical) behind this issue.  Anything that brings more athletes to races is great. I played college football at 220 lbs, but am now probably out of clydesdale contention (190 out of season, 175 in season).  I have convinced many friends and former teammates to take up the sport, one who’s playing weight was 265 lbs.  He is the best example of why there should be a clydesdale division I know.  At 8% bodyfat he is still 215 lbs.  Close to first out of the water, solid bike, then losing positions throughout the run to competitors 70 lbs lighter then him.  Age group competition levels the field considerably, and this would help that trend. AC

Amen. Been there, done that. At 6′4", close to 200, and 7% body fat, it gets really frustrating to come of the bike 1st or 2nd overall (three times this season) only to watch 5 -10 flyweights glide past on the run. I really believe there is a place for clydesdale competition. In the Gatorade series, I used to compete in clydesdales. It was a good place to start as a beginner, but unfortunately Clydesdale divisions generally lack one thing: fit athletes. Now don’t get an itchy flame thrower finger, I’m not trying to put anyone down. I wasn’t the fittest guy my first season. But my experience is that in many races, Clydesdale times are very slow. There is really no reason (unless the course is very hilly or turny) that clydesdale times coming off the bike shouldn’t approach those of the best age groupers. We need to get more serious athletes in the division so that it gains respect. I would love to race the clydesdale division with the fear that I might get beat badly. However, except for a few serious guys I know, there isn’t that much quality, at least in FL, and there is generally a huge gap between the first (or maybe top three finishers) and the rest of the field, because they are often weekend warriors. Nothing wrong with that, but if we want Clydesdales at nationals and IMH, we need to attract more big framed, fit, serious athletes, and gain respect for the division. — <“`; <“`; <“`; <“`; <“`; <“`; <“`; <“`;<~

Todd N. Kenyon: fishdoctor, trigeek, geekgeek, etc. Key Biscayne, FL ~;

Question:

<<<Two weeks ago I got the "PR*Bar Newsletter" in the mail. Lead story? "We are proud to have Dr. Philip Maffetone on board as our Medical Director. Dr. Maffetone is a sports physician…" [Incidentally, I wasn't aware that it was proper to call a chiropractor a "physician"].

Now I may be wrong but I thought that a qualification wether it be a degree, diploma or doctorate was merely a way of determining wether a person knew what they were talking about?  ( they had done the study). So who cares wether it’s doctor, Phsysician, tinker, taylor?  DOES HE KNOW WHAT HE IS TALKING ABOUT? I for one have enough confidence in my judgement (and for that matter not enough confidence in the variances of world qualifications standards) to make that judgement myself.  Who cares what letters follow!!!! GREG.J.ABBISS :: Waitakere, Auckland, New Zealand ATTMAIL:             internet!iconz.co.nz!abbiss

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<snipped legal treatise…   I don’t have all 50 states’ statutes in front of me, but I believe that   this law is standard. This, of course, is not really relevant to   triathlons, except that all of us are on mailing lists and receive a   considerable amount of advertising. These laws are in place to protect   consumers and to assist them in making choices.  OK, Mark, here is where I flick my BIC.

At the risk of appearing to defend both Dr. Mark J. and the medical profession, I’d like to enter this fray once again.   After all,  it was my post that questioned whether Dr. Maffetone could in fact call himself a "physician".  The fact of the matter is that he legally CANNOT call himself a "physician" in Canada or in Texas (1 state down… 49 to go <smile).  But it as Dr. Jenkins suggests, it goes deeper than that.  There are laws put in place to prevent _anyone_ from just calling themselves whatever they want and holding out that representation to the general public.  Surely, I could not just call myself a chiropractor and get away with it; more importantly, what kind of confidence could individuals who subscribe to that school of treatment expect from me if I could do that?   That’s why the law is there — for the protection of the general public including triathletes. Now as for the rest of your argument… <Sound of flamethrower firing up in the distance approaching….  What is it with you and Phil? Does it personally offend you that someone  who didn’t go through the archaic and arcane process we so lovingly refer  to as medical school uses the title?

I did not see any thing other than mild hyperbole to suggest that Mark Jenkins has it "in" for Dr. Maffetone (although I must admit that I have no idea what his ideas in this specific instance are, BTW).   I interpreted the statement to be a clarification of fact that was missing from Dr. Maffetone’s counterpoint (since proven wrong for all of Canada and Texas, at least) to my earlier post.  Is it that you refuse to accept that  maybe someone has come upon a workable system of developing and enhancing  athletic performance through individual inititiative and research rather  than through that most corrupt process of peer review and acedemically  funded research?

Come again?  Are you suggesting that  ALL "academically funded research" is somehow corrupt?  By that logic, you would then be saying that any academically funded research for chiropractic is also corrupt.  Surely that is not the case.  But I’m sure you can document the fact that  all peer review and research is fatally flawed.  Maybe your sentiment here is better saved for  aerowheel tests.  The people with whom Phil works are happy with the quality of care they  receive, their performances are improving and they continue to put their  faith and trust in his knowledge and expertise.

Here I have no argument with you or your logic.  If in fact, individuals are happy with the services they receive from trained, qualified and certified healthcare providers, then that individual alone should be the ultimate arbitrator.  But that is off the mark: remember that the question was what someone could call themselves in their representations to triathletes. What do you care if he  calls himself a Dr. or Donald Duck?

See above. Last I noticed almost every top  professional triathlete that I have met makes some form of alternate  therapy a part of their program. As an aside, almost all of them came to  alternative care after poor service with little positive result from  "traditional" medicine.

I too (although _definitely_ not a pro <chuckle) subscribe to so-called "alternate" therapies such as massage for a cervical disk problem.  Heck, the evidence may be anectodal, but it works for me!   But again, can you prove (perhaps via "academically funded or peer research" <G) that "almost all pros" (what is that sample size, anyway?) have arrived at the choice to use alternate therapies as a result of "poor service with little positive result from traditional medicine"? How many hours of nutrition are required in med  school these days. Last time I checked (a few years ago), it was less than  2% of the curriculum at most schools.

That’s _exactly_ why there is a RD (Registered Dietician) designation. Check out recent discussions in sci.med.  If some MD, DO, DC or whatever were to hold themselves out to be an RD without appropriate qualification, then perhaps they should be challenged.  I know that may sound a little rough but Phil is taking a lot of abuse of  late and I have yet to see or hear him do anything that was not helpful to  our sport or the athletes he works with.

Zag, I don’t think that was the reason for Dr. J’s or my post.  Oh yes, as for your last comment above,… that’s the same reason I support Dr. Jenkins! Cordially yours on the scorched earth of r.s.t, Tom

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Dan, JJ, & Dr. Brug raise good points.  I agree with much of what they say, and add these further thoughts:   Titles do matter.  A title implies that one possesses an advanced degree of skill, knowledge, and accomplishment in a specialized field.  It says to the world, "I am an expert, I am ethical  - trust me." Yet, because we live in an imperfect world, there will always be those who take advantage of the public trust.  Thus, in order to ensure our own safety, we must challenge credentials.  If a person’s actual experience and education are worthy of a title, public scrutiny will bear this out. If a person’s actual experience and education are not worthy of a title, then that lack of experience and/or education should be revealed. It is practically impossible for the public to know the reputation and credentials of every doctor.  The only way the unknowing public can separate the good from the bad is through honest, rigorous, scrutiny. Such scrutiny is particularly important in the field of medicine because so much is at stake, namely the health, safety and welfare of the patients.  Good doctors realize this and welcome an open dialogue. As an attorney, I hold myself out as having a specialized skill and knowledge.  However, I also realize that there are both good and bad attorneys in the world, and that it is not always easy for the general public to discern the difference.  We all have degrees.  We all have advanced educations.  We all claim to be good at what we do.  However, some of us are clearly better and more ethical than others.  The only way for the public to discern among us to challenge us.  Ask us questions.  Be critical.  Don’t settle.  Any attorney worth his or her salt welcomes the opportunity to prove and defend his or her own credentials. It is fair and necessary to challenge Philip Maffetone’s credentials.  He holds himself out as a medical expert and he should expect scrutiny as to those credentials.  However, I do not believe that it is fair to criticize Maffetone for the publicity which he has been getting; the exposure is good for his business and, if I were him, I’d be happy to have it.  If there is any blame to be had, it lies with those who are giving him the publicity;  they decide which mug gets the press. By the way, Dan, if Triathlete offered you a cover story or two, would you balk at the exposure?:) As to Jenky, I agree with Dan: Jenky’s comments are always constructive, reasoned, and respectful.   His participation is an asset to the group. Cory H.  

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don’t refer to myself as an engineer, I don’t any license to do what I do, I don’t have an MBA, I don’t have a law degree, I sometimes pay my taxes late, I sometimes pay my vendors late, I have hair on my back, I occasionally smell bad, and I cuss alot when I’m mad.  Now, if you still choose to buy my wetsuit you’ve been forewarned.  I  would feel much, much more comfortable with Phil’s comments if there were similar qualifications attached.

Sorry to ruin a truely excellent post (which I totally agree with) but after hearing the above I think I may try to get my money back from my wetsuit, and not buy a QR bike….  :-) John (you did see the smiley, didn’t you?) K.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK, Mark, here is where I flick my BIC. What is it with you and Phil? Does it personally offend you that someone who didn’t go through the archaic and arcane process we so lovingly refer to as medical school uses the title? Is it that you refuse to accept that maybe someone has come upon a workable system of developing and enhancing athletic performance through individual inititiative and research rather than through that most corrupt process of peer review and acedemically funded research? The people with whom Phil works are happy with the quality of care they receive, their performances are improving and they continue to put their faith and trust in his knowledge and expertise. What do you care if he calls himself a Dr. or Donald Duck? Last I noticed almost every top professional triathlete that I have met makes some form of alternate therapy a part of their program. As an aside, almost all of them came to alternative care after poor service with little positive result from "traditional" medicine. How many hours of nutrition are required in med school these days. Last time I checked (a few years ago), it was less than 2% of the curriculum at most schools. I know that may sound a little rough but Phil is taking a lot of abuse of late and I have yet to see or hear him do anything that was not helpful to our sport or the athletes he works with. ZAG

ZAG, First of all, I apologize to anyone who has misinterpreted my postings as an attack on Dr. Maffetone. They are not. I am not responsible for some of the rude things that others have said about him. I have not, in any way, criticized him or his profession. Essentially, there is no controversy or competition here — except what some people seem to want to create. I have addressed him and everyone else on this newsgroup in a professional manner. There are over 100 types of professionals deserving the term doctor, and I address all of them as "doctor" ; Veterinarians, chiropractors, osteopaths, Ph.D.s, M.D.s, optometrists, podiatrists, naturopaths, dentists, and others. Asking someone what kind of doctor they are is not the same thing as an attack on their credibility. Each week, a few patients will ask me what kind of doctor I am, where I trained, or other questions that might be perceived as "questioning my authority". If I got my hackles up every time this happened, I guess I would spend a lot of time with erect fur. It is simply an honest question, worthy of an honest answer — and not an emotional response. There really isn’t an issue about "traditional" vs. "non-traditional" medicine. I think too many people want to see the world as black and white, but it really is a collection of many shades of gray. I recognize that there are many health professionals from many disciplines who provide excellent care, and I am not so arrogant as to think that only M.D.s can provide quality health care. It may even surprise you to learn that I have referred patients to "non-traditional" practitioners when it was clear that it was appropriate for me to do so. If you have encountered pompous, arrogant physicians, I am sorry, but please do not stereotype me or my profession. I recognize that there are some complete jerks in my field, but that does not mean that all M.D.s are uncaring, selfish, pompous bastards. Prejudicial bias colors ones perceptions, and I guess some people will see what they want to see. Please don’t judge me based on the initials that follow my name. Finally, asking another professional detailed scientific questions and engaging in discussion is not a personal attack. I have certainly learned a lot from this interaction and I hope that others have as well. In our blind rush to get faster — heads down, joining the crowd — is it wrong for one or two people to stop and question where we are going? In my educational process, I have not been taught *what* to think, but rather that I *should*  think. I realize that I am nothing– a "nobody". I am a small voice, without all the accolades that are attached to some members of the inner sanctum of our sport, but I can still ask questions. If I don’t understand, please forgive me for asking, reading, thinking, and occasionally pointing out things that need clarification. I hope this clears the air a bit, but please don’t misinterpret the above. It was delivered in a relaxed, polite, conversational tone.                                         Mark A. Jenkins, M.D.

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I care.  And I’m glad Jenky cares.  There is one big difference between Phil and Jenky.  Phil is like me.  He has something to sell to the people in this newsgroup.  And therefore everyone here should be very wary of what I say, and what Phil says, because we are both hocking our wares. For that reason neither of us should be surprised if we get extra scrutiny, especially if it appears that what we are telling is not the whole story.

Damn right. That’s the heart of the matter. Also just because someone/anyone is an author, owns a modem, has friends on the inside, wins a race, gets  a lot of press  or wins an award from the bagman for the boys downtown network doesn’t mean the person is a hero, a star or a leader. So far from it in some cases. There’s  a lot of marketeers, kingmakers, agents and wheeler dealers out there and they try to influence the media which influences the public which gives the clients  bigger resumes and then bigger contracts. At times this network works with great success. Sometimes its at work right here. What you see, sometimes, isn’t really what is. JJ

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individual inititiative and research rather than through that most corrupt process of peer review and acedemically funded research?

Scientific research is generally an accumulative field of knowledge with contributions made by many investigators over a long period of time.  Each scientist’s work is dependent on other researchers, both contemporary and historically.  When an individual goes off on his/her own initiative, without benefit of peer criticism at seminars, colloqia, etc., and without being required to substantiate the significance of his/her intended research, the "scientist" is very likely to go off the shallow end and come up with some pretty funny voodoo.  A good deal of the advice in this newsgroup falls into that category, regardless of which soi-disant letters of achievement attach to the name.  Much of this advice is very effective.  Few people would doubt the efficacy of faith healing.  Faith healing does not benefit by peer review and academic funding.  In that sense, you are perfectly right. Ruth Kazez

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<<What is it with you and Phil? Does it personally offend you that someone <<who didn’t go through the archaic and arcane process we so lovingly refer <<to as medical school uses the title? I have not seen Jenky refer to Phil in only but (generally) the most restrained way, considering the *serious* departure that Phil takes from Western Medicine.  While I, because of my egregious disrespect for anything and everything, richly deserve your sarcasm, it appears to me that Jenky has bent over backwards to restrain himself, and therefore does not deserve it (since he has wielded very little of it himself). <<Is it that you refuse to accept that <<maybe someone has come upon a workable system of developing and enhancing <<athletic performance through individual inititiative and research rather <<than through that most corrupt process of peer review and acedemically <<funded research? Although I doubt if Jenky sees himself in this position, Jenky for me is the medical information "gatekeeper" of this newsgroup.  You may fling your barbs at the foibles of "Western Medicine", but where would you be without it?  At the end of the day, I’ll take Jenky’s rigorous and scholarly approach over Phil’s speculations.  Phil may turn out to be right in much or most of what he says (or maybe not).  In any case, I greatly value Jenky as the opposing voice, just to put Phil’s ideas in a proper perspective. <<The people with whom Phil works are happy with the quality of care they <<receive, their performances are improving and they continue to put their <<faith and trust in his knowledge and expertise. I haven’t seen Jenky question either their right to seek his advice, or the overall quality of Phil’s advice.  I have only seen Jenky question Phil on those matters where there is a clear need for a question to be asked. <<What do you care if he calls himself a Dr. or Donald Duck? I care.  And I’m glad Jenky cares.  There is one big difference between Phil and Jenky.  Phil is like me.  He has something to sell to the people in this newsgroup.  And therefore everyone here should be very wary of what I say, and what Phil says, because we are both hocking our wares. For that reason neither of us should be surprised if we get extra scrutiny, especially if it appears that what we are telling is not the whole story. <<I know that may sound a little rough but Phil is taking a lot of abuse of <<late and I have yet to see or hear him do anything that was not helpful to <<our sport or the athletes he works with. Phil "sounds" like he speaks with great authority and finality.  He is perceived as an "august presence" here in this newsgroup, because he isn’t just another joe like me and you, he sidles up to the term "physician", and we don’t question the judgement of physicians.  We swallow what they say lock, stock, and barrel, and suspend judgement.  Occasionally he posts a highly questionable piece of information which– because Phil *never* qualifies his statements with "it is my opinion" or "realize that what I say is questioned by others in the medical profession"– could be interpreted to be a belief that is not in any question.   I enjoy having Phil in this newsgroup, and value his opinions.  However I highly, highly value Jenky as a check from Western Medicine’s point of view.  Phil could relieve himself of most of the grief he gets here if he qualified his beliefs more often.  When I tell people in this newsgroup how to mount their cleats, I say up front that my formula is cult-like, and is not adhered to by 80% of the bike shop mechanics.  My beliefs are therefore set against the backdrop of what the "industry" believes.  I don’t refer to myself as an engineer, I don’t any license to do what I do, I don’t have an MBA, I don’t have a law degree, I sometimes pay my taxes late, I sometimes pay my vendors late, I have hair on my back, I occasionally smell bad, and I cuss alot when I’m mad.  Now, if you still choose to buy my wetsuit you’ve been forewarned.  I  would feel much, much more comfortable with Phil’s comments if there were similar qualifications attached. QRman

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 <<< In most jurisdictions (all states, 10 provinces, assorted and sundry  territories, protectorates and the like) it is illegal to pass one’s  self off as a physician unless one holds an approved MD degree.  That’s news to me, and a lot of other licensed professionals. Maybe you’re  right and we’re all wrong. (Not that it _really_ matters.) Also, my  diploma says "physican."  Philip Maffetone

Dr. M, a clarification is in order for my earlier statement.  I did not have enough information to make the above statement regarding "all states".  However, you may be interested in the following information.  In Canada, only persons licenced by their respective  provincial boards (i.e. College of Physicians and Surgeons of Alberta) may use the terminlogy "physician" and/or "surgeon".  To become licenced by the board, the following requirements are needed; you must have an "approved MD degree from an accredited college [their words, not mine, BTW]"  or a PhD in an approved disciple (i.e. pyschology/psychiatry) and you must pass a two part LLMC C exam, administered by the Medical Council of Canada. In my home province this is goverend by the Medical Professions Act, a legislated statute. Further, practices such as the prescription of pharmaceuticals is restricted to "MD’s"  and is not available to many allied health professions such as chiropractors and phyical therapists.  As for a specialization in "sports medicine", no MD may describe themselves as a specialist without having the appropriate approval and certificate from the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada, which, interestingly does _not_ offer or recognize a specialization in sports medicine.  Physicians, however, can advertise themselves as having a "special interest" [once again, the college's words] in sports injuries and medicine. Lest you think this is some kind of non-MD bashing, it was not intended to be that. I merely wanted to point out that there are usually (well founded, IMO) restrictions as to who can claim to be what.  I know many of the allied professions have high standards and that there are bound to be good and not-so-good in each and that healthcare providers other than "licenced MDs" are an important part of the triathlon (medical) scene. Of course, none of this _really_ matters to triathlon, does it? <wink Tom Ruta

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athletic performance through individual inititiative and research rather than through that most corrupt process of peer review and acedemically funded research?

Peer review, although not perfect, is a time-tested manner of separating garbage from valuable information.  As a matter of fact, peer review is precisely what goes on in this newsgroup.  Do you have some better means in mind for evaluating the validity of theories than the one which has been used for literally all of the scientific advances made? faith and trust in his knowledge and expertise. What do you care if he calls himself a Dr. or Donald Duck? Last I noticed almost every top

Speaking as someone who has spent the past 3.5 years working pretty damn hard towards obtaining a Ph.D., I care a great deal about someone misrepresenting him or herself.  For a more verbose rant on this subject, see my other recent post in this thread. I think Dr. Jenkin’s comment on this matter was completely reasonable. Timothy — Timothy Gotsick

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I don’t have all 50 states’ statutes in front of me, but I believe that this law is standard. This, of course, is not really relevant to triathlons, except that all of us are on mailing lists and receive a considerable amount of advertising. These laws are in place to protect consumers and to assist them in making choices. I hope this helps. OK, Mark, here is where I flick my BIC. What is it with you and Phil? Does it personally offend you that someone who didn’t go through the archaic and arcane process we so lovingly refer to as medical school uses the title? …

You guys gotta be sh**in’ me! FACT:  Maffetone states that physicians and D.C.’s are synoymous and his diploma says he’s a physician. FACT:  Previous Canadian poster states that D.C’s in Canada can’t use the term physicians. FACT:  Jenky wrote in that in Texas (and maybe other states) D.C.’s can’t use the term physician to describe themselves. FACT:  Here’s another case of someone making a general statement without checking the FACTS. The people with whom Phil works are happy with the quality of care they receive, their performances are improving and they continue to put their faith and trust in his knowledge and expertise.

I’m sure this is the case, but this really doesn’t have anything to do with D.C. being synoymous with physicians. Frankly, I’m a more than a little tired of reading about Maffetone (good and bad).  Tim G. previously posted that he’s offended by Dr. Phil representing himself as a biochemist.  I’m sure I’m going to miss a few, but recently I’ve seen  Phil in the Wind Tunnel;  Phil & T. DeBoom Saga (funny but isn’t Phil Tim’s agent?); Phil as a Physician;  Phil as future TriFed President (Katy you probably thought I forgot that one);  BetaBars, PRBars and Phil.  D**n, maybe someone should call NBC, and we could start a mini-series! From a lot of the sigs, I know there are a lot of RSTers who have dedicated a signifcant portion of their lives to education.  One thing I’ve found is the more your learn (& research), the more you find out you don’t know (exactly).  Also, the more you study, the more clearly defined your boundaries of expertise become. My personal problem is that it appears that the triathlon media doesn’t realize Dr. Phil’s boundaries.  I’m not contesting the fact that Dr. Phil is very good in his area of training; however, it definitely does not make him an expert at many other aspects of triathlon.  Heck, you can call me "Dr", but I have trouble putting on a band-aid straight, so please don’t call me "physician", "nutritionist", "aerospace engineer", "sports agent", "NGB prez"… Pat    W.Patrick Brug, Ph.D.  _-           -_    Los Alamos National Lab -__       __-                                       /    cis:      72410,3372        /  

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As I’ve said before, what I object to is the use of the title "Dr." as a means of implying expertise not in chiropractic, which Maffetone is trained in, but in biochemistry and nutrition, which are the subjects upon which most of his reputation is based.   [Flame ON] Further, no one has bothered (or perhaps no one cares to admit) to explain whether the amount of advanced training which a chiropractor receives is comparable to that required for possession of an M.D. or Ph.D..  I will, of course, go find out on my own at some point, but the deafening silence on this matter suggests to me that my suspicions are correct, and that training for chiropractic is not of the same depth as that of the usual "Dr."’s. [Flame OFF] pretty mild, really… For the record, I once again state that I do not think that lack of the title "Dr." invalidates one’s opinions on areas outside or inside one’s area of claimed expertise.  But to my ear, the weight given to the opinion of a professionally trained person is greater than that given to someone who just happens to have an opinion. Hell, as long as I’m ranting (I can feel the caffeine rush starting NOW!!!!), why is Maffetone’s opinion given so much weight anyway? Triathlete’s "Coach of the Year" (great source of an endorsement, eh?) was pictured with his three stars at Kona this year.  Well, think about it, Allen crapped out at the Berlin Marathon and didn’t reach his goal at IM Germany, Pigg was well down in the results at Kona, and Tim DeBoom didn’t even start.  Not what I would term a stellar record for the charges of someone thought by many to be the ultimate coach of ultra-endurance athletes. Obviously, I’m slanting things here, but still, I don’t think the cult of personality which has risen around Maffetone is a good thing.  Chances are that he personally is a decent, well intentioned person, but since he seems very selective about which posts he responds to, I don’t feel that I’ve gotten to see that side of him. The hype surrounding him, which must be at least condoned by Maffetone himself, seems unjustified in many respects.  If his presence in the sport has done you some good, that’s great, but I am at a loss to understand why so many seem willing to overlook the oddities in this whole saga. I guess a good question would also be why this whole thing irks me so much… Timothy — Timothy Gotsick

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First of all, I’ll put my bias on the table:  I have a visceral discomfort with chiropractors being called Dr. or referred to as a physician.  And I have problems with Maffetone presenting himself as an expert on biochemistry, which I think he often does.  In the past, I’ve felt that the title "Dr." when used in front of Maffetone has constituted an attempt to imply a level of training that simply isn’t there.  This is not to say that Maffetone’s ideas are not worthy of respect; clearly there is a lot of empirical evidence in the form of the athletes who follow his advice that he is on to something important for endurance athletes. That said, I would be willing to lose my visceral discomfort with chiropractors being called "Dr." if someone would convince me that the training necessary to become a chiropractor is comparable to that required to get an M.D. or Ph.D..  I have been under the perhaps mistaken impression that the levels of training necessary for the two disciplines was not comparable.  Anyone care to shatter my ignorance? Timothy — Timothy Gotsick

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – First of all, I’ll put my bias on the table:  I have a visceral discomfort with chiropractors being called Dr. or referred to as a physician.  And I have problems with Maffetone presenting himself as an expert on biochemistry, which I think he often does.  In the past, I’ve felt that the title "Dr." when used in front of Maffetone has constituted an attempt to imply a level of training that simply isn’t there.  This is not to say that Maffetone’s ideas are not worthy of respect; clearly there is a lot of empirical evidence in the form of the athletes who follow his advice that he is on to something important for endurance athletes. That said, I would be willing to lose my visceral discomfort with chiropractors being called "Dr." if someone would convince me that the training necessary to become a chiropractor is comparable to that required to get an M.D. or Ph.D..  I have been under the perhaps mistaken impression that the levels of training necessary for the two disciplines was not comparable.  Anyone care to shatter my ignorance?

Timothy: I don’t know that I disagree with you entirely but I do have another point of view on the concept of MD’s deserving the "title" and DC’s not. While there are DC’s who certainly overstep their bounds, the AMA type medical profession is no less guilty and in fact, the highly trained MD’s get to bury their mistakes while a DC may have to only account for the occassional stomach ache or sore neck. MD’s should have more training. The scope of their ability to invade the human body far exceeds the scope of the DC. Please do not read that I am in favor of the DC who claims to be able to cure cancer, only that I have been an alternate medicine patient for twenty five years and I am generally more comfortable on the chiropractic table that in the office of an MD. "You know the difference between a doctor and God? God doesn’t want to be a doctor." With apologies to Mark Jenkins. ZAG

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writes: <<< In most jurisdictions (all states, 10 provinces, assorted and sundry territories, protectorates and the like) it is illegal to pass one’s self off as a physician unless one holds an approved MD degree. That’s news to me, and a lot of other licensed professionals. Maybe you’re right and we’re all wrong. (Not that it _really_ matters.) Also, my diploma says "physican." Philip Maffetone

Philip, I hate to burst your bubble here, but the designation of "physician" can only be applied to M.D s  and  D.O.s — both have equivalent training. There are laws to this effect which govern identification via signs, pamphlets, stationery, letterheads, signature, or any other means of professional identification. The following is an excerpt from the Healing Art Identification Act — Texas Rev. Civ. Stat Ann. art. 4590e. " If licensed by the Texas Board of Chiropractic Examiners, the following identification is proper: 1. Chiropractor 2. Doctor, D.C. 3. Doctor of Chiropractic 4. D.C. " I don’t have all 50 states’ statutes in front of me, but I believe that this law is standard. This, of course, is not really relevant to triathlons, except that all of us are on mailing lists and receive a considerable amount of advertising. These laws are in place to protect consumers and to assist them in making choices. I hope this helps.                                         Mark A. Jenkins, M.D..

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there are DC’s who certainly overstep their bounds, the AMA type medical profession is no less guilty and in fact, the highly trained MD’s get to bury their mistakes while a DC may have to only account for the occassional stomach ache or sore neck. MD’s should have more training. The scope of their ability to invade the human body far exceeds the scope of the DC. Please do not read that I am in favor of the DC who claims to be able to cure cancer, only that I have been an alternate medicine patient for twenty five years and I am generally more comfortable on the chiropractic table that in the office of an MD.

Hey, don’t get me wrong, I have a lot less faith now than I used to in the ability of MD’s to treat people as opposed to human bodies.  And I agree that there are substantial problems with the medical profession and the AMA in particular.  However, that doesn’t go to the point of my original post. The problems with "real" doctors is fodder for a different thread.  At the moment I’m very curious whether this one will go, and I’ll pass on taking up the gauntlet concerning MD’s. BTW, I don’t know how many MD’s are in this group, but the only one I can recall is Dr. Jenkins.  If one judged the profession by his posts, I, for one, would have a much higher opinion of MD’s. Timothy — Timothy Gotsick

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Philip, I hate to burst your bubble here, but the designation of "physician" can only be applied to M.D s  and  D.O.s — both have equivalent training. There are laws to this effect which govern identification via signs, pamphlets, stationery, letterheads, signature, or any other means of professional identification. The following is an excerpt from the Healing Art Identification Act — Texas Rev. Civ. Stat Ann. art. 4590e. " If licensed by the Texas Board of Chiropractic Examiners, the following identification is proper: 1. Chiropractor 2. Doctor, D.C. 3. Doctor of Chiropractic 4. D.C. " I don’t have all 50 states’ statutes in front of me, but I believe that this law is standard. This, of course, is not really relevant to triathlons, except that all of us are on mailing lists and receive a considerable amount of advertising. These laws are in place to protect consumers and to assist them in making choices. I hope this helps.

OK, Mark, here is where I flick my BIC. What is it with you and Phil? Does it personally offend you that someone who didn’t go through the archaic and arcane process we so lovingly refer to as medical school uses the title? Is it that you refuse to accept that maybe someone has come upon a workable system of developing and enhancing athletic performance through individual inititiative and research rather than through that most corrupt process of peer review and acedemically funded research? The people with whom Phil works are happy with the quality of care they receive, their performances are improving and they continue to put their faith and trust in his knowledge and expertise. What do you care if he calls himself a Dr. or Donald Duck? Last I noticed almost every top professional triathlete that I have met makes some form of alternate therapy a part of their program. As an aside, almost all of them came to alternative care after poor service with little positive result from "traditional" medicine. How many hours of nutrition are required in med school these days. Last time I checked (a few years ago), it was less than 2% of the curriculum at most schools. I know that may sound a little rough but Phil is taking a lot of abuse of late and I have yet to see or hear him do anything that was not helpful to our sport or the athletes he works with. ZAG

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<<< In most jurisdictions (all states, 10 provinces, assorted and sundry territories, protectorates and the like) it is illegal to pass one’s   self off as a physician unless one holds an approved MD degree. That’s news to me, and a lot of other licensed professionals. Maybe   you’re right and we’re all wrong. (Not that it _really_ matters.) Also, my diploma says "physican." Philip Maffetone

Touche! By the way doc, what is cranial manipulation???  I’m just very curious as   to what exactly this is.  In fact, when I mentioned it to a colleague at   work, he said "I don’t know either, but it sounds like something you   need." Marty Miller (aka The Noodle) Proprietor of "The Triathlete’s Web" http://iac.net/~miller/triathlon-home.html

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Zagarino writes: I know that may sound a little rough but Phil is taking a lot of abuse of late and I have yet to see or hear him do anything that was not helpful to our sport or the athletes he works with.

Hear, hear (or is it, here, here)! Let’s quit dumping on Phil. I have two comments to add in support of chiropractors who identify themselves as doctors. 1.) When I lived in Boulder, my favorite chiropractor was Dr. Otsie Stowell. I never questioned his training; he was a titled professional in his field, and I got results from what he did for me. There are dozens and dozens of chiropractors in any community who list themselves as "Dr. Whoever," and I’ve never heard their credentials questioned to the extent everyone has grilled Dr. Phil Maffetone. 2.) Thousands of exercise physiologists who have Ph.D.’s are also titled Dr. Thousands of others with Ph.D.’s in other academic fields are called Dr. Come on, everyone, the use of Dr. indicates a high degree of training in one’s field. Let’s give Dr. Maffetone the respect he deserves. Perhaps I didn’t state any of the above very eloquently, but I’ve just been reading this thread a while and simmering, because I know what Phil can do and has done. Katherine Williams

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 As Dave Letterman would say, "what’s the deal here?"

Can you say "sham"… I thought you could!  Several times in the last few months Phil Maffetone has said he has no  relation with PR*Bar (that’s not a direct quote, obviously). Two weeks  ago I got the "PR*Bar Newsletter" in the mail. Lead story? "We are proud  to have Dr. Philip Maffetone on board as our Medical Director. Dr.  Maffetone is a sports physician…" [Incidentally, I wasn't aware that  it was proper to call a chiropractor a "physician"].

Can your say "practising medicine without a licence?"  I _knew_ you could!  In most jurisdictions (all states, 10 provinces, assorted and sundry territories, protectorates and the like) it is illegal to pass one’s self off as a physician unless one holds an approved MD degree. Chiropractors, though,  to the best of my knowledge can call themselves Doctor everywhere. Plus  there are enough subtlties in advertising that allow such things to occur.  For example, in Canada you can’t call yourself a physical therapist/physiotherapist unless you are registered with the provincial college; but you can be a joe/josephine off the street and call yourself a "thereapist" with interest in physical sports. Caveat emptor. Tom

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<<< In most jurisdictions (all states, 10 provinces, assorted and sundry territories, protectorates and the like) it is illegal to pass one’s self off as a physician unless one holds an approved MD degree. That’s news to me, and a lot of other licensed professionals. Maybe you’re right and we’re all wrong. (Not that it _really_ matters.) Also, my diploma says "physican." Philip Maffetone

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Dr. M…. Touche…..very well said. Dana

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<<<Two weeks ago I got the "PR*Bar Newsletter" in the mail. Lead story? "We are proud to have Dr. Philip Maffetone on board as our Medical Director. Dr. Maffetone is a sports physician…" [Incidentally, I wasn't aware that it was proper to call a chiropractor a "physician"].

This is just a reminder for "buyers-to-beware"… Facts       D.C.  equals      physician  (according to this post)       M.D.  equals      physician       D.C.  NOT EQUALS  M.D. Gee, here’s another case where logic (and the transitive property) doesn’t apply.  I don’t really have a too strong of an opinion, but for those of you who might be uncomfortable with _certain types_ of physicians, just make sure their credentials are suitable to you. Here’ my problem…       M.D.                     NOT EQUALS   sports physician       D.C.                     NOT EQUALS   sports physician       M.D. + special training  EQUALS       sports physician       D.C. + special training  EQUALS (?)   sports physician       D.C. sports physcian     NOT EQUALS   M.D. sports physician For the last case, remember the two individuals have different backgrounds, philosophies and skills.  IMHO, its like comparing apples and oranges.  So, if you want apples, don’t go looking in Florida’s orange groves…    W.Patrick Brug, Ph.D.  _-           -_    Los Alamos National Lab -__       __-                                       /    cis:      72410,3372        /  

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As Dave Letterman would say, "what’s the deal here?" Several times in the last few months Phil Maffetone has said he has no relation with PR*Bar (that’s not a direct quote, obviously). Two weeks ago I got the "PR*Bar Newsletter" in the mail. Lead story? "We are proud to have Dr. Philip Maffetone on board as our Medical Director. Dr. Maffetone is a sports physician…" [Incidentally, I wasn't aware that it was proper to call a chiropractor a "physician"]. Then, a little later, I get the May Inside Triathlon, and see ads for [insert trumpet sounds here] a new energy bar, the BetaBar, being promoted by the same Dr. Philip Maffetone. "What’s the deal here?" Then I turn to the "Wingnut Wendy" interview. Here’s what Wendy Ingraham, key PR*Bar endorser, has to say in response to the question "How are you going to be training differently this season?": "That’s hopefully what Phil [Maffetone], a few other people and I can figure out. Apparently, it is all going to start with rebalancing my diet. Last year, I don’t think I felt as good physically as I did in ‘93. Even though my results in ‘94 were better, I just didn’t feel as good. I think somewhere along the line I got off track with my diet." Excuse me, Wendy, but wasn’t ‘94 the year that you were all over the pages of our magazines, telling us how great the PR*Bar diet was? "What *is* the deal here?" Sign me,  Curious in Cupertino

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<<<Several times in the last few months Phil Maffetone has said he has no relation with PR*Bar (that’s not a direct quote, obviously). Let me say it for the record, I am not with PR Nutrition (as of the first of the year). I am now with BetaBar, a new energy bar with a different formula. <<<Two weeks ago I got the "PR*Bar Newsletter" in the mail. Lead story? "We are proud to have Dr. Philip Maffetone on board as our Medical Director. Dr. Maffetone is a sports physician…" [Incidentally, I wasn't aware that it was proper to call a chiropractor a "physician"]. You’ll have to ask PR Nutrition why they’re still sending out literature that’s over a year old. [Yes, chiropractors are considered, and properly referred to as, physicians.] <<<Then, a little later, I get the May Inside Triathlon, and see ads for [insert trumpet sounds here] a new energy bar, the BetaBar, being promoted by the same Dr. Philip Maffetone. <<<Then I turn to the "Wingnut Wendy" interview. Here’s what Wendy Ingraham, key PR*Bar endorser, has to say in response to the question "How are you going to be training differently this season?": "That’s hopefully what Phil [Maffetone], a few other people and I can figure out. Apparently, it is all going to start with rebalancing my diet. I have consulted for many companies, and also – as a separate practice – treat and train athletes. The two don’t always match, nor do they need to. In many sports, I may even train two athletes who are fierce competitors of each other. It’s never been a problem for me or the athlete (i.e. Pigg & Allen). Philip Maffetone

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Question:

Email me your name and address and I’ll send you our triathlon catalog. Swimming, Cycling and Running Items. Thanks, Tri-Tech Sports

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Email me your name and address and I’ll send you our triathlon catalog. Swimming, Cycling and Running Items. Thanks, Tri-Tech Sports

I was just in Tuscon over the weekend and visited your store.  The signs posted said you were going out of business.  What gives? Mike —

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I’d like to receive your catalog: Jim Duncan Breakaway Logic, Inc. 9005 Eton Ave. Suite D Canoga Park, CA 91304 Thanks,

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Question:

I’ve got a couple equipment questions. 1.  What is considered a safe speed for driving with two bikes on a     fork-mounted Yakima rack?  I drive a Chevrolet Beretta GTU and the     rack was installed by a certified dealer.  I lost a front wheel     off the rack once, going 55 mph with a strong cross wind.(The wheel     bouced off my rear spoiler then rolled for about 300 yards.  Tough     wheel, It wasn’t even out of true.)   Well I realize the schewer(sp?)     wasn’t tight enough, but it has made me very paranoid.  I’ve been     doing a lot of interstate highway driving and some of the roads are     a bit rough.  Is that safe?  Also, what is the best method for     locking the bikes to the rack? 2.  I wanted opinions on which was the best indoor bike trainer.  I have     seen the fans, magnetic resistance?, and rollers in the Nashbar,     Performance, etc.  I would like something that is relatively quiet,     not too expensive, and sturdy.   I would appreciate any advice you can give me.  Thanks,                                                  Alan May                                     Fightin’ Texas Aggie Triathlon Team Keywords:

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[....] 2.  I wanted opinions on which was the best indoor bike trainer.  I have    seen the fans, magnetic resistance?, and rollers in the Nashbar,    Performance, etc.  I would like something that is relatively quiet,    not too expensive, and sturdy.  

IMHO, rollers are by far the best indoor trainer.  They improve your spin and your bike handling.  They are less boring than a training stand (but still boring).  You can get a good workout if you use a resistance device.  The mag units are far quieter.   Rollers take a little work to master.  You should be able to ride them the first day but it will take a couple of weeks of regular use before you’re comfortable.  Set them up in a narrow hallway (which is ideal) or a doorway so that if you execute an "unexpected departure", you won’t fall over. Dave LaPorte U. Minn.

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May) writes:

I think the mag trainers are best. Quiet, simple to use, low cost. The small ones (rear wheel only) a portable but I like the front fork lock ones the best for home use. You can stay in great shape using a trainer. Wonder if this is why East Coast traithletes are so good?

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Question:

+ + Further it is claimed, that the permanent higher concentration + of this hormone threatens the brain, so they will lose their mental + capabilities, especially when getting older. + + I would like to ask the world, if there are some hints for + contradictory results. + + Personally, I feel that it can’t be true. I am a hobby marathon runner + for more then 15 years (personal best time 2:27h) and I ran about +  40,000 miles in this time. + I never had any problems with it, and I think my brain is more or less + also fit  :-) . I suspect our non-running friends would use the fact that you have run some 40,000 miles as conclusive proof that this hormone must be destroying our brains. —   Terry Linhardt                uunet!jgaltstl!terry                  

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+ + Personally, I feel that it can’t be true. I am a hobby marathon runner + for more then 15 years (personal best time 2:27h) and I ran about +  40,000 miles in this time. I suspect our non-running friends would use the fact that you have run some 40,000 miles as conclusive proof that this hormone must be destroying our brains.

This is only 8.5 miles per day assuming a one rest day a week. Above average, not extreme, and wise.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m new in this news group, so please excuse me if this topic is already discussed here. [...] These articles claim that extensiv marathon training (about 100 miles /week) will cause an increased blood cortison level. (Logically, this would be also true for any other kind of extensive sports.) Cortison is an hormone, which is produced in stress situations. Further it is claimed, that the permanent higher concentration of this hormone threatens the brain, so they will lose their mental capabilities, especially when getting older. I have not much confidence in medical science, especially psychiatrists. They make their experiments with mice and rats on some running machines and then  draw their conclusions to man.   There are many examples of definitly false results.

congratulations, you are already a skeptical consumer of medical research. i wish everyone could be. the contrary hypothesis has been proven here (at Beckman) by researcher Bill Greenough who has shown that regular exercise increases blood flow to the brain and apparently enables more rapid development of new synapses, at least in rats. new synapse formation has been shown to indicator of learning. this could be interpreted to mean that running will make you smarter. — Mgr. System Services            | 217-244-1079  | Sorry, I haven’t had time Beckman Institute               | PP/ASEL       | to think up a clever saying. Univ. of Illinois               |               |

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Hello, I’m new in this news group, so please excuse me if this topic is already discussed here. In the German sports press – especially for long distance running and triathlon – we had some reports, which really are causing some confusion among the marathon enthusiasts. These articles claim that extensiv marathon training (about 100 miles /week) will cause an increased blood cortison level. (Logically, this would be also true for any other kind of extensive sports.) Cortison is an hormone, which is produced in stress situations. Further it is claimed, that the permanent higher concentration of this hormone threatens the brain, so they will lose their mental capabilities, especially when getting older. I would like to ask the world, if there are some hints for contradictory results. Personally, I feel that it can’t be true. I am a hobby marathon runner for more then 15 years (personal best time 2:27h) and I ran about  40,000 miles in this time. I never had any problems with it, and I think my brain is more or less also fit  :-) . I always enjoyed it to run, even after an hard training my body feels good. So, I can’t believe, that training is damaging at all. I have not much confidence in medical science, especially psychiatrists. They make their experiments with mice and rats on some running machines and then  draw their conclusions to man.   There are many examples of definitly false results. Nevertheless, this claims must be disproved ! Otherwise, the community of endurance sportsmen will be strongly discouraged.

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