Question:

.how do you propose pushing your HR down (training response) w/o pushing your HR up (training)?

Well, that is true. You need the training at increase HR to arrive at a lower HR. But, maximum is not really neccessary. This thread was on max HRs, which seems to be on everyone’s agenda. Those who train by the monitor, become slaves to the monitor and sometimes can lose sight of the issue of the race.

Response:

Now this is silly…how do you propose pushing your HR down (training response) w/o pushing your HR up (training)? Damn Polar for making HR measurements so accessible! Andy Coggan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I see many here try to push their HR UP. High rate does not always correlate with high cardiac output, and that is what you really want, a cardiac output sufficient to meet the demands of whatever you are doing at the time. With training and efficiency, one should actually lower HR as increase in HR is a load on the heart. Me, I have been trying to push my HR DOWN. As of now, at 51 and 18 years of tris, I have a resting heart rate of 40-44 and can get down to 38 if I relax and will it so. This means that at 220 minus age, max HR would be 169. That would be greater than 4X resting rate. Hopefully I would never get to that rate. If I am trained sufficiently my stroke volume would be great enough to accommodate my need and would meet that need before it reached max HR. So, if we take myself with a resting HR as above and compare to someone with a restrate of 80, and we go by the more or less standard numbers of 220 minus age and we are the same age, what does it say if we both can achieve the max of 169? Mine at 4X restrate and he at 2X restrate. His ability to achive that max rate is actually easier than my ability. In other words, max heart rate has less bearing overall than resting heart rate. Or, the difference between the two.

Response:

Now that you mention it, I’m not sure either.  Somehow I had the idea of 200 – age = max.  Also the chart on the package had the danger zone for 45 year olds starting at 160.

The classic is 220-age, but there are many other variations.  None of them are ‘accurate.’  And more so, the feeling is that the decline in MHR due to age is far less significant in active people.   The guidelines are most effective for those starting a new fitness routine where one might overstress the heart.  There are tests to determine your personal max rate – essentially stress tests and probably should be undertaken with care.  The new Polars also will estimate a max hr based on your OwnIndex score.  No idea if their guess is better than the simple calcs out there. — Rec.scuba strokes pics page: www.jor.com/strokes Aquashot page: www.jor.com/dive/aquashot

Response:

I quite often see 160 to 165 on my heart rate monitor.  I have gotten it up to about 175.  I’m 53 and I’ve never tried to push myself hard enough to see what my maximum might be. Bob in Kalamazoo

Response:

| | I don’t believe it is uncommon for fit, | endurance athletes to have  a ‘high’ max HR, as well as the ability to | achieve a higher than ‘normal’ high HR. | | Less common than in untrained persons, since max HR tends to decrease w/ | endurance exercise training. | | Andy Coggan | Not to argue your point, as my information, and knowledge of the subject is mostly anecdotal. But I was of the belief that Max HR is predisposed, and the ability to achieve max, or near max was more probable in a fit person as he(she) would have the strength/ stamina to stress themselves far beyond the level of an untrained person. If Max HR decreases with endurance training, might it be expected to rise if the athlete reduced, or abandon their training regimen? ED3

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – | | I don’t believe it is uncommon for fit, | endurance athletes to have  a ‘high’ max HR, as well as the ability to | achieve a higher than ‘normal’ high HR. | | Less common than in untrained persons, since max HR tends to decrease w/ | endurance exercise training. | | Andy Coggan | Not to argue your point, as my information, and knowledge of the subject is mostly anecdotal. But I was of the belief that Max HR is predisposed, and the ability to achieve max, or near max was more probable in a fit person as he(she) would have the strength/ stamina to stress themselves far beyond the level of an untrained person. If Max HR decreases with endurance training, might it be expected to rise if the athlete reduced, or abandon their training regimen? ED3

When discussing max HR just keep in mind that what you are discussing is not the maximum rate at which your heart can beat but rather the maximum rate at which you can make your heart beat during exercise.  So physiological adaptations to training can effect max HR.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – | | I don’t believe it is uncommon for fit, | endurance athletes to have  a ‘high’ max HR, as well as the ability to | achieve a higher than ‘normal’ high HR. | | Less common than in untrained persons, since max HR tends to decrease w/ | endurance exercise training. | | Andy Coggan | Not to argue your point, as my information, and knowledge of the subject is mostly anecdotal.

Mine is based on both reading and contributing to the primary research literature in this area. But I was of the belief that Max HR is predisposed, and the ability to achieve max, or near max was more probable in a fit person as he(she) would have the strength/ stamina to stress themselves far beyond the level of an untrained person.

Sorry, but no. The only way this might happen is if the untrained/unfit person wasn’t pushed all the way to maximum…that might be true if they were testing themselves w/o adequate guidance/motivation, or in a stress test designed to screen for cardiovascular disease, in which it is common to stop the test at 85% of age-predicted max HR, but wouldn’t happen in a typical laboratory test of VO2max. If Max HR decreases with endurance training, might it be expected to rise if the athlete reduced, or abandon their training regimen?

Yes. Case in point: in one study, I stopped all training for two weeks. In that time, my max HR rose from the low 180’s to the low 190’s. We then infused Macrodex, a plasma volume substitute, to replace the lost plasma volume – this brought my max HR down to the mid 180’s in a test conducted just a few hours later. Andy Coggan

Response:

I see many here try to push their HR UP. High rate does not always correlate with high cardiac output, and that is what you really want, a cardiac output sufficient to meet the demands of whatever you are doing at the time. With training and efficiency, one should actually lower HR as increase in HR is a load on the heart. Me, I have been trying to push my HR DOWN. As of now, at 51 and 18 years of tris, I have a resting heart rate of 40-44 and can get down to 38 if I relax and will it so. This means that at 220 minus age, max HR would be 169. That would be greater than 4X resting rate. Hopefully I would never get to that rate. If I am trained sufficiently my stroke volume would be great enough to accommodate my need and would meet that need before it reached max HR. So, if we take myself with a resting HR as above and compare to someone with a restrate of 80, and we go by the more or less standard numbers of 220 minus age and we are the same age, what does it say if we both can achieve the max of 169? Mine at 4X restrate and he at 2X restrate. His ability to achive that max rate is actually easier than my ability. In other words, max heart rate has less bearing overall than resting heart rate. Or, the difference between the two.

Response:

As for raising my MHR… I didn’t spell this out but, I doubt my MHR has actually changed, what I’ve done is to work on a physical disability that stopped me getting anywhere close to it previously. I still struggle to get to MHR during most activities but at least on Interval work now I can… Agreed about the formula, but that one comes closest generally. ++Mark.

Response:

I don’t believe it is uncommon for fit, endurance atheletes to have have a ‘high’ max HR, as well as the ability to achieve a higher than ‘normal’ high HR.

Less common than in untrained persons, since max HR tends to decrease w/ endurance exercise training. Andy Coggan

Response:

The classic is 220-age, but there are many other variations.  None of them are ‘accurate.’

Actually, they are all accurate…what they aren’t is precise. And more so, the feeling is that the decline in MHR due to age is far less significant in active people.

There is *one* publication from John Holloszy’s laboratory reporting no decline in max HR over an 8 year period in a handful of master athletes…however, there are a number of other studies showing no attenuation, and on average older athletes do not have higher (and often have lower) max HR than untrained persons of the same age. Your statement is therefore largely wishful thinking that has made its way out into the lay press. Andy Coggan

Response:

166 is not high for a fit 47 year old. See your doctor if concerned. I’m 44 and have worked hard for 2-years to get my MHR from 120 to 162 and rising. Of all the various calculations for MHR, I found this to be the one most accurate   208-(age*0.7) Its from  Doug Seal at the University of Colorado. Seems to work for most people I’ve asked. For you that would mean a MHR of 175! ++Mark.

Response:

  I found this to be the one most accurate [formula for HRmax]   208-(age*0.7) doesn’t work for me. formula says 190 but i still reach 200. more on the bike. the HRmax is different for each sport. it is genetically determined so there’s no formula that can help you in finding the accurate value. it’s best found out by trying, but under medical supervision. this is the first time i read someone raised his HRmax, normally it lowers with heavy endurance (over)training. p!

Response:

Now that you mention it, I’m not sure either.  Somehow I had the idea of 200 – age = max.  Also the chart on the package had the danger zone for 45 year olds starting at 160. Thanks for the input. Sam – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I got a Speedo HRM for my birthday (47th).  After getting all the settings done, I went for a run around the block.  Before I left, the HR was displaying 70.  I jogged for a minute then broke into a full hard run. After  about two minutes of flat out effort, I glanced at the HR reading. It was 166.  That stopped me.  I was under the impression that a 47 year old man should have a max heart rate around 150. Within seconds it came down to 152 and in three or four minutes, it was under 100 and is reading 80 right now (which I verfied manually)  I can’t seem to manually take my HR when it is elevated.  Does anyone have experience with the Speedo model HRM?  Does it read high?  Do I have a heart problem?  I took a heart stress test four years ago and ran the machine into the ground. (I was valet parking cars part-time) and never had an abnormal reading. Thanks, Sam I am not sure what equation suggests  your Max HR is 150 at age 47, but at age 49, I have driven my HR as high as 185, and I do not believe that to be my max. I use a Polar X-trnr +, and find it to be accurate any time I compare it to any other reading. I don’t believe it is uncommon for fit, endurance atheletes to have have a ‘high’ max HR, as well as the ability to achieve a higher than ‘normal’ high HR. ED3

Response:

The replies above are interesting.  I would suggest that your heart rate max is 205 minus 1/2 your age or about 182.  It is not unusual to be very surprised by how high the heart rate is when jogging after first getting a monitor.  In fact,  the major benefit of the monitor is to allow you to train in an aerobic zone that is not too high (this builds endurance) such as 60-70 of max and to recover in a zone below this.  Runs done on the easy days that are above this heart rate zone really do not allow recovery.  Stan

Response:

| The replies above are interesting.  I would suggest that your heart rate max is | 205 minus 1/2 your age or about 182.  It is not unusual to be very surprised by | how high the heart rate is when jogging after first getting a monitor.  In | fact,  the major benefit of the monitor is to allow you to train in an aerobic | zone that is not too high (this builds endurance) such as 60-70 of max and to | recover in a zone below this.  Runs done on the easy days that are above this | heart rate zone really do not allow recovery.  Stan Polar has an abundance of info in this 4 part series: http://www.polar.fi/personaltrainer/serious/book/part1.html ED3

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Content-Type: text/plain;    charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I got a Speedo HRM for my birthday (47th).  After getting all the = settings done, I went for a run around the block.  Before I left, the HR = was displaying 70.  I jogged for a minute then broke into a full hard = run.  After  about two minutes of flat out effort, I glanced at the HR = reading.  It was 166.  That stopped me.  I was under the impression that = a 47 year old man should have a max heart rate around 150. Within = seconds it came down to 152 and in three or four minutes, it was under = 100 and is reading 80 right now (which I verfied manually)  I can’t seem = to manually take my HR when it is elevated.  Does anyone have experience = with the Speedo model HRM?  Does it read high?  Do I have a heart = problem?  I took a heart stress test four years ago and ran the machine = into the ground. (I was valet parking cars part-time) and never had an = abnormal reading. =20 Thanks,

At the Y where I workout there is one route that is 4.2 miles. After running that route my average heart rate as measured on my Polar is around 162. I’m 46 years old. I often see rates over 170 when going up hills, fast runs etc. This site might also help with some sort of benchmarking, http://www.bpr.com/triathlon/hrmonitor.htm

Response:

I got a Speedo HRM for my birthday (47th).  After getting all the settings done, I went for a run around the block.  Before I left, the HR was displaying 70.  I jogged for a minute then broke into a full hard run. After  about two minutes of flat out effort, I glanced at the HR reading. It was 166.  That stopped me.  I was under the impression that a 47 year old man should have a max heart rate around 150. Within seconds it came down to 152 and in three or four minutes, it was under 100 and is reading 80 right now (which I verfied manually)  I can’t seem to manually take my HR when it is elevated.  Does anyone have experience with the Speedo model HRM?  Does it read high?  Do I have a heart problem?  I took a heart stress test four years ago and ran the machine into the ground. (I was valet parking cars part-time) and never had an abnormal reading. Thanks, Sam I am not sure what equation suggests  your Max HR is 150 at age 47, but at age 49, I have driven my HR as high as 185, and I do not believe that to be my max. I use a Polar X-trnr +, and find it to be accurate any time I compare it to any other reading. I don’t believe it is uncommon for fit, endurance atheletes to have have a ‘high’ max HR, as well as the ability to achieve a higher than ‘normal’ high HR. ED3

Response:

Your max would typically be around 170, or so.  Your AT threashold may be in the 140 range; But, this varies tremedously w/ the individual.  The question I have is why on earth would you break into a "full hard run" after a minute? This does not make any sense particularily for someone of our (your) age!!  If this is the way you train, you really do need the heart rate monitor.  Please, learn to be sensible. david Never give up, Be satisfied w/ your best, Do unto others…..

Response:

I got a Speedo HRM for my birthday (47th).  After getting all the settings done, I went for a run around the block.  Before I left, the HR was displaying 70.  I jogged for a minute then broke into a full hard run.  After  about two minutes of flat out effort, I glanced at the HR reading.  It was 166.  That stopped me.  I was under the impression that a 47 year old man should have a max heart rate around 150. Within seconds it came down to 152 and in three or four minutes, it was under 100 and is reading 80 right now (which I verfied manually)  I can’t seem to manually take my HR when it is elevated.  Does anyone have experience with the Speedo model HRM?  Does it read high?  Do I have a heart problem?  I took a heart stress test four years ago and ran the machine into the ground. (I was valet parking cars part-time) and never had an abnormal reading.   Thanks, Sam

Response:

Question:

Hi all, I have a long run energy question.  I have always had problems on long runs over 18 miles. I think my problem is that I run out of energy.  I usually dring 1/2 strength sports drink. As an experiment, yesterday on my long run (22 miles), I ate 1/2 of a peanut butter and jam sandwich at mile 15.  I began to get progressively more tired until about mile 18.  Then I started feeling much better, my pace quickened and I felt great for the last 4 miles.  This has never happened.  I have never used energy gels.  Would they have the same effect as the PB&J?  Does anyone else use PB&J as energy food during long runs or marathon races? Michael Carey (Columbus, Ohio)

Response:

I have a long run energy question.  I have always had problems on long runs over 18 miles. I think my problem is that I run out of energy.  I usually dring 1/2 strength sports drink. As an experiment, yesterday on my long run (22 miles), I ate 1/2 of a peanut butter and jam sandwich at mile 15.  I began to get progressively more tired until about mile 18.  Then I started feeling much better, my pace quickened and I felt great for the last 4 miles.  This has never happened.  I have never used energy gels.  Would they have the same effect as the PB&J?  Does anyone else use PB&J as energy food during long runs or marathon races?

  You left off the quantity of fluids and calories that your sports drink might contribute, so I’ll just talk about my experiences.   I’ve discovered that I can run fine up to about 15 miles (24 km) without additional calories.  Going over that distance, I run in to calorie debt problems.  Put differently, and more usefully, in my experiments at longer distances, I can get about 1500 calories in debt before it affects my running.  100 calories per mile seems to work pretty accurately for me.   Conclusion is, in running over 15 miles I need to replace those 100 calories per mile.  That means downing about 1600 calories during my 50 km race in 12 days.  (1500 on hand, 1600 in supplement).   The other part of the experiment has been to work out what foods do well for me on the run.  PBJ works very well.  It has, as you noticed, a delayed effect.  This is, for the most part, a good thing.  Your body doesn’t have the massive surge/crash cycle sugar can provide.   On the other hand, towards later stages, I find it better to turn more towards the sugar.  (mini-snickers bars, to be specific; they have also some fats and proteins, more in line with ‘energy bars’).   That’s how the experiments have gone for me, as best I’ve been able to interpret.  Try some out yourself.   Another point (again in my experience) is that it is better to start replacing the calories early.  That is, if you’re going to need them at mile 20, start _by_ mile 10.  Gives your body time to digest and distribute, and I find that as time goes on, the body is less interested in eating. — Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links. Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences

Response:

I use power gels for any runs over 12 miles and usually start taking one every 40-45 minutes.  A 15 mile run will take 2 (one at 40 minutes and another at 1.20).  It is important to consume them early as they are for carb replacement during recovery as much as energy during the run.  They are much easier to carry than an PB&J I would think, I use them in the neoprene jog carrier from Road Runner Sports. I ran the Paris Marathon last year and consumed 4 power gels during the 3:29 effort, felt good at the end and did not bonk. Dwayne

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all, I have a long run energy question.  I have always had problems on long runs over 18 miles. I think my problem is that I run out of energy.  I usually dring 1/2 strength sports drink. As an experiment, yesterday on my long run (22 miles), I ate 1/2 of a peanut butter and jam sandwich at mile 15.  I began to get progressively more tired until about mile 18.  Then I started feeling much better, my pace quickened and I felt great for the last 4 miles.  This has never happened.  I have never used energy gels.  Would they have the same effect as the PB&J?  Does anyone else use PB&J as energy food during long runs or marathon races? Michael Carey (Columbus, Ohio)

Response:

From my limited experience:  approx 1 oz Hammergel every 30 min works great for me, whether in a race or on a training run (over 10 miles). Enables me to maintain an even pace and have something at end to increase speed over last mile.  Have used other gels, they worked fine also.  All gels need a good water supply to wash them down with. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all, I have a long run energy question.  I have always had problems on long runs over 18 miles. I think my problem is that I run out of energy.  I usually dring 1/2 strength sports drink. As an experiment, yesterday on my long run (22 miles), I ate 1/2 of a peanut butter and jam sandwich at mile 15.  I began to get progressively more tired until about mile 18.  Then I started feeling much better, my pace quickened and I felt great for the last 4 miles.  This has never happened.  I have never used energy gels.  Would they have the same effect as the PB&J?  Does anyone else use PB&J as energy food during long runs or marathon races? Michael Carey (Columbus, Ohio)

– Regards, Dave I’d love to think that there’s an end just waiting right around the bend, but every turn’s a tunnel.        I descend I’m the running man… Edward Ka Spell and kEvin Key, The Last Man to Fly, 1991

Response:

I use PB (no J) sandwiches for RECOVERY AFTER my runs- it’s got a good protein/carb/fat balance for muscle recovery.  I couldn’t imagine eating one DURING my run tho… Another observation: I could eat a BIG lunch, like at a restaurant, and be hungry again by 4 or 5pm. But if I have a PB sandwich and a can of soda, my energy level will stay strong & steady until 7pm. Because of this,  I find they make good PRE-run meals, as well. Eric – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all, I have a long run energy question.  I have always had problems on long runs over 18 miles. I think my problem is that I run out of energy.  I usually dring 1/2 strength sports drink. As an experiment, yesterday on my long run (22 miles), I ate 1/2 of a peanut butter and jam sandwich at mile 15.  I began to get progressively more tired until about mile 18.  Then I started feeling much better, my pace quickened and I felt great for the last 4 miles.  This has never happened.  I have never used energy gels.  Would they have the same effect as the PB&J?  Does anyone else use PB&J as energy food during long runs or marathon races? Michael Carey (Columbus, Ohio)

Response:

I would add to start even earlier.  The research indicates that you cannot start too soon but you can wait too late. I am betting the gels would work even better. My guess is that your 1/2 strength sport drink does not have enough energy. Have you tried something stronger?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a long run energy question.  I have always had problems on long runs over 18 miles. I think my problem is that I run out of energy.  I usually dring 1/2 strength sports drink. As an experiment, yesterday on my long run (22 miles), I ate 1/2 of a peanut butter and jam sandwich at mile 15.  I began to get progressively more tired until about mile 18.  Then I started feeling much better, my pace quickened and I felt great for the last 4 miles.  This has never happened.  I have never used energy gels.  Would they have the same effect as the PB&J?  Does anyone else use PB&J as energy food during long runs or marathon races?   You left off the quantity of fluids and calories that your sports drink might contribute, so I’ll just talk about my experiences.   I’ve discovered that I can run fine up to about 15 miles (24 km) without additional calories.  Going over that distance, I run in to calorie debt problems.  Put differently, and more usefully, in my experiments at longer distances, I can get about 1500 calories in debt before it affects my running.  100 calories per mile seems to work pretty accurately for me.   Conclusion is, in running over 15 miles I need to replace those 100 calories per mile.  That means downing about 1600 calories during my 50 km race in 12 days.  (1500 on hand, 1600 in supplement).   The other part of the experiment has been to work out what foods do well for me on the run.  PBJ works very well.  It has, as you noticed, a delayed effect.  This is, for the most part, a good thing.  Your body doesn’t have the massive surge/crash cycle sugar can provide. On the other hand, towards later stages, I find it better to turn more towards the sugar.  (mini-snickers bars, to be specific; they have also some fats and proteins, more in line with ‘energy bars’).   That’s how the experiments have gone for me, as best I’ve been able to interpret.  Try some out yourself.   Another point (again in my experience) is that it is better to start replacing the calories early.  That is, if you’re going to need them at mile 20, start _by_ mile 10.  Gives your body time to digest and distribute, and I find that as time goes on, the body is less interested in eating. — Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur

activities notes and links. Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New

Sciences

Response:

Your body doesn’t have the massive surge/crash cycle sugar can provide.   On the other hand, towards later stages, I find it better to turn more towards the sugar.  (mini-snickers bars, to be specific; they have also some fats and proteins, more in line with ‘energy bars’).

mini-snickers?  No way!  I always dreamed of an athletic event where I could eat snickers.  cool. — Lorne Sundby

Response:

<snip   Conclusion is, in running over 15 miles I need to replace those 100 calories per mile.  That means downing about 1600 calories during my 50 km race in 12 days.  (1500 on hand, 1600 in supplement).

My limited understanding of the physiology of this is a little bit different.  I believe that you burn both glycogen and fats during your runs. So during the last 16 miles of your 50K, you will not need to replace all of the energy you have burned during the run.  Much of what you will need will still come from stored fat.  What you will have to replace is the glycogen. Without replacing it early in the run you will at some point run out.  When you run out, the body burns, as I understand it, protein and fat.  Eating foods that are high in sugars, preferably complex carbohydrates when possible, will replace much of the lost glycogen.  You should find that you will need to replace far less than 3100 calories.  Besides PBJ, another favorite at an ultra is boiled potatoes.  They are boiled, soaked overnight to absorb moisture, and eaten dipped in salt.  Great way to get some complex carbos and it’s easy on the stomach.  They’re full of water so they’re easy to eat and swallow. Your observations are pretty good.  Good luck Robert on your 50K. Todd

Response:

 They are boiled, soaked overnight to absorb moisture, and eaten dipped in salt. Oh, yuck! Couldn’t you at least roast them???

Response:

 <snip  Besides PBJ, another favorite at an ultra is boiled potatoes.  They are boiled, soaked overnight to absorb moisture, and eaten dipped in salt.  Great way to get some complex carbos and it’s easy on the stomach.  They’re full of water so they’re easy to eat and swallow. Your observations are pretty good.  Good luck Robert on your 50K. Todd

 I’m nowhere near the stage of needing to carry food on my long runs but I like the potato idea – so much so it’s been added to my ‘running tips’ file. charlie

Response:

 They are boiled, soaked overnight to absorb moisture, and eaten dipped in salt. Oh, yuck! Couldn’t you at least roast them???

Of course you can. Let’s see, the HAT race in particular has about 300 people, that would mean we would need your oven for 40 days and 40 nights(sans flooding). Then people would want them flavored with chives and garlic and a sit-down dinner. Oh waiter, the spud du jour please, placing his napkin in his lap sipping a mint julep.   As lackluster as boiled sounds, they taste good plus an easily digestible carbohydrate. For dessert there are usually, fig newtons, M&M’s and possibly chocolate chip cookies. A well balanced meal I might add. — Caveat Lector Doug Freese

Response:

 I’m nowhere near the stage of needing to carry food on my long runs but I like the potato idea – so much so it’s been added to my ‘running tips’ file.

If you carry a potato on your run please be prepared to have mashed. They will still be fine but less chunky. I suggest a zip lock bag to squeeze from. — Caveat Lector Doug Freese

Response:

Lots of ultra marathons have pb+j on the aid station tables.  Protien, carbs, fat, and sodium – what more could you want? Gels have the same things maybe some other stuff like caffine, amino acids – but if pb+j works — Check out the Team Lab Rat Ultramarathon Page! http://members.fortunecity.com/teamlabrat

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all, I have a long run energy question.  I have always had problems on long runs over 18 miles. I think my problem is that I run out of energy.  I usually dring 1/2 strength sports drink. As an experiment, yesterday on my long run (22 miles), I ate 1/2 of a peanut butter and jam sandwich at mile 15.  I began to get progressively more tired until about mile 18.  Then I started feeling much better, my pace quickened and I felt great for the last 4 miles.  This has never happened.  I have never used energy gels.  Would they have the same effect as the PB&J?  Does anyone else use PB&J as energy food during long runs or marathon races? Michael Carey (Columbus, Ohio)

Response:

<snip   Conclusion is, in running over 15 miles I need to replace those 100 calories per mile.  That means downing about 1600 calories during my 50 km race in 12 days.  (1500 on hand, 1600 in supplement). My limited understanding of the physiology of this is a little bit different.  I believe that you burn both glycogen and fats during your runs. So during the last 16 miles of your 50K, you will not need to replace all of the energy you have burned during the run.  Much of what you will need will still come from stored fat.  What you will have to replace is the glycogen.

  Entirely correct.  I’m relying on a cancellation of errors in my version above.  One error is ignoring the energy which comes from fat, the other is that I really burn more than 100 calories per mile (more like 125 if my more refined estimate is right).  This may still leave me little high for the number of calories I need to take in (I think at these distances more than 20-25% of the energy comes from fat), but I’m not running with a calorie counter anyhow.  Starting at about 20-30 minutes, I’m going with ‘if you’re not repulsed at the thought of food, eat’. Your observations are pretty good.  Good luck Robert on your 50K.

  Thank you.  Still working on my warm weather adaptation, and on not going overboard with enthusiasm.  11 days to go.  :-)   — Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links. Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences

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Your body doesn’t have the massive surge/crash cycle sugar can provide.   On the other hand, towards later stages, I find it better to turn more towards the sugar.  (mini-snickers bars, to be specific; they have also some fats and proteins, more in line with ‘energy bars’). mini-snickers?  No way!  I always dreamed of an athletic event where I could eat snickers.  cool.

Yes! Snickers aren’t just for breakfast anymore. <g I think I mentioned a few days ago that a fellow triathlete is nicknamed "Candyman"  because that’s what he uses for "energy" food at an IM. Tootsie Rolls, hard candy, etc. I’ll buy candy in the middle of my long rides – usually something really chocolatey just for a different taste. Mike Tennent "IronPenguin" Ironman Canada ‘98 Great Floridian ‘99, ‘00

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As an experiment, yesterday on my long run (22 miles), I ate 1/2 of a peanut butter and jam sandwich at mile 15.  

Way too late, as Sam hints. You need to start fueling early, just like hydration. You shouldn’t wait until you’re thirsty to drink and you shouldn’t wait until you’re low on energy to eat. And I agree that the half-strength formula is probably insufficient. Strengthen it if you can, or supplement it with something else. (Robert’s Snickers are good.) Mike Tennent "IronPenguin" Ironman Canada ‘98 Great Floridian ‘99, ‘00

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Sam, Thanks for your comments (all of you).  I am learning alot from this discussion. To answer some questions.  My fluid intake has varied alot depending on weather conditions.  During last summer, I would take in 100oz of fluid during 20+ mile runs.  I have experimented with different mixes of all sports drink (full strength) to 1/2 and 1/2 sports drink and water.  I would often make sure that I had sports drink before the times I would start to bonk but it never seemed to help.  During winter runs, the temps in Ohio are usually around the freezing mark. I drink alot less in winter.  Usually around 40oz/20miles.  I would think it would be hard to get enough energy in 40oz of sports drink to get me through a long run. Especially since they didn’t appear to help much in the summer.   I have never used gells on training runs but will on my next one.  Maybe start with one at mile 12 and then every 3 miles thereafter?  If that doesn’t work, I guess I will to back to PBJs. Thanks, Michael – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would add to start even earlier.  The research indicates that you cannot start too soon but you can wait too late. I am betting the gels would work even better. My guess is that your 1/2 strength sport drink does not have enough energy. Have you tried something stronger?

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PB is loaded with fat, which takes a <lot of energy to digest–probably why you felt sub-par from mile 15 to 18. It’s way too much of a digestive load for a 20. I’ve tried every conceivable race drink and gel, and I now don’t take <any fuels in sub-20-mile runs and feel <much better. See my sig for details. — George Beinhorn "How to Run Your First 50-Miler" http://www.oceansofenergy.com

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This sounds like a good plan, Michael.  It is not possible to get enough calories from drinks alone for long events.  If you can eat anything solid, go for it, but be careful of the sugars (ie jelly).  On a long run they can cause lower GI distress.  Everyone is different, so experiment on your long training runs.  12 miles into a run might be a little too long to go without calorie intake, especially if going 3+ hours. Gels are probably the best way to get the calories needed.  Again be careful of the simple sugars (stomach problems) <blatant plug mode ON  try Carb-BOOM energy gels sometime <blatant plug mode OFF.  I have found that "stomach management" is key in long events (you can be perfectly trained, tapered and equiped, but if you get stomach cramps or problems, you are done, the clock still runs while you are in an outhouse). One other thing to consider is salt intake- depending on your sweat rate, climate,etc, you could probably use some salt on a 3+ hour session/race. Symptons of low salt levels include stomach bloating, headache, dizzy, muscle cramps, craving french fries/anything salty.  I take salt tabs on really long events like an ironman, but they can also be useful in marathons. Hope this helps and good luck ! Mike (also a Carey)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sam, Thanks for your comments (all of you).  I am learning alot from this discussion. To answer some questions.  My fluid intake has varied alot depending on weather conditions.  During last summer, I would take in 100oz of fluid during 20+ mile runs.  I have experimented with different mixes of all sports drink (full strength) to 1/2 and 1/2 sports drink and water.  I would often make sure that I had sports drink before the times I would start to bonk but it never seemed to help.  During winter runs, the temps in Ohio are usually around the freezing mark. I drink alot less in winter.  Usually around 40oz/20miles.  I would think it would be hard to get enough energy in 40oz of sports drink to get me through a long run. Especially since they didn’t appear to help much in the summer. I have never used gells on training runs but will on my next one.  Maybe start with one at mile 12 and then every 3 miles thereafter?  If that doesn’t work, I guess I will to back to PBJs. Thanks, Michael I would add to start even earlier.  The research indicates that you cannot start too soon but you can wait too late. I am betting the gels would work even better. My guess is that your 1/2 strength sport drink does not have enough energy. Have you tried something stronger?

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Well, you do not replace the glycogen while you are running.  The intake of CHO during a run seems to maintain blood sugar levels and reduces the need for liver glycogen to be used for this manner (liver glycogen being the source for endogenous carbohydrate for the blood stream and brain). David Costill once proposed that taking in CHO during endurance exercise spared muscle glycogen but muscle biopsies have not always supported this claim.  However, the research on taking CHO early during a race is pretty irrefutable (see one of the following: Noakes, Niemann and Costill for more information). You do "burn" a mixture of CHO and fat during a long run (some protein but it is pretty minor).  As you increase speed, the amount of CHO expended increases since it is a faster source of energy (fewer steps and less oxygen is needed to convert 1 mole of CHO to energy than 1 mole of fat).  Even the leanest of people has enough fat on board to finish a marathon—it might not be pretty however.  Since marathon pace is just below (or well below depending on the abilities and pace of the runner), fat will make up a large percentage and absolute amount of the energy expended. Boiled potatoes are a favorite of the ultra-endurance crowd (at least in the cycling community).

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snip   Conclusion is, in running over 15 miles I need to replace those 100 calories per mile.  That means downing about 1600 calories during my 50 km race in 12 days.  (1500 on hand, 1600 in supplement). My limited understanding of the physiology of this is a little bit different.  I believe that you burn both glycogen and fats during your runs. So during the last 16 miles of your 50K, you will not need to replace all of the energy you have burned during the run.  Much of what you will need will still come from stored fat.  What you will have to replace is the glycogen. Without replacing it early in the run you will at some point run out. When you run out, the body burns, as I understand it, protein and fat.  Eating foods that are high in sugars, preferably complex carbohydrates when possible, will replace much of the lost glycogen.  You should find that you will need to replace far less than 3100 calories.  Besides PBJ, another favorite at an ultra is boiled potatoes.  They are boiled, soaked overnight to absorb moisture, and eaten dipped in salt.  Great way to get some complex carbos and it’s easy on the stomach.  They’re full of water so they’re easy to eat and swallow. Your observations are pretty good.  Good luck Robert on your 50K. Todd

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I have never used gells on training runs but will on my next one.  Maybe start with one at mile 12 and then every 3 miles thereafter?  If that doesn’t work, I guess I will to back to PBJs.

Again, you’d be better off to take them in earlier so that your body can use them instead of its own stores. The idea (to me) is to have the body use what I’m adding all through the run, not use up what it has and then start depending on what I can get in. That’s how you bonk. Once you get low, you can’t take in enough to sustain the same high level of activity. I’d suggest no later than 6 miles to start fueling. Mike Tennent "IronPenguin" Ironman Canada ‘98 Great Floridian ‘99, ‘00

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PB, having a lot of fat and oil, may be hard to digest. However the jelly is probably a quick and easy source of energy.  —–  Posted via NewsOne.Net: Free (anonymous) Usenet News via the Web  —–   http://newsone.net/ — Free reading and anonymous posting to 60,000+ groups    NewsOne.Net prohibits users from posting spam.  If this or other posts

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How do you keep them from becoming mashed potatoes as you run? [snip] boiled potatoes.  They are boiled, soaked overnight – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – to absorb moisture, and eaten dipped in salt.  Great way to get some complex carbos and it’s easy on the stomach.  They’re full of water so they’re easy to eat and swallow. Your observations are pretty good.  Good luck Robert on your 50K. Todd

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How do you keep them from becoming mashed potatoes as you run?

Freeze and eat them before they defrost. Presented to you by the American Dental Association Chipped Tooth Division. — Caveat Lector Doug Freese

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That’s clever. Really… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How do you keep them from becoming mashed potatoes as you run? Freeze and eat them before they defrost. Presented to you by the American Dental Association Chipped Tooth Division. — Caveat Lector Doug Freese

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Question:

Nice report, keep up the good work.  Mike Beyerstedt

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I said I’d do it and I did it. C.O.M.B.A.T. Triathlon 300 m. Swim 15 Mile Bike 5K Run Like everything else I do I charged into triathlon full speed ahead.  I immediately started training for an Olympic distance race thinking that a sprint was not enough of a challenge.  Then I got antsy.  I found that the earliest Tri I could enter was a sprint so I jumped at the chance.  I had been training for an Olympic distance so I figured the sprint would be a cake walk.  Then all hell broke loose.  After a foolish 10 mile beach run at high noon I found myself erupting at both ends with 104 degree fever.  I quit training for a week.  That turned into three weeks when I found myself at a new job pulling 12 hr. days to impress the new boss.  Then race day arrived. The night before it rained HEAVILY.  I was up all night watching the big red dot on the weather channel cover Houston praying the tri wouldn’t be canceled.  I last remember seeing the clock read 3:30 a.m. It was mocking me.  4:30 a.m. brough the alarm.  I cruised down to the site with my buddy Larry.  He is the Burgess Merideth to my Rocky.  I couldn’t believe I wasn’t nervous!  I lined up for the swim. SWIM About 2 minutes before it was my turn to start I guess the nerves his me.  I ran to the mens room and unleashed what could well have been a frat boy’s beer piss.  "So much for hydration" I thought.  I have been doing 1600 meter and 2000 meter swims 3X a week for months now so a 300 meter swim didn’t scare me.  Everyone says the same thing: "I started to fast and thought I was going to drown!"  No exception here.  The pool was as murky as lock ness.  I didn’t think I could risk passing w/o bonking my head on the wall so I just cruised the swim. T1 I had never practiced a transition.  I figured that I have been dressing myself for a few decades now and I pretty much got the hang of it.  No "shirt over the helmet storied here". I did use the plastic bag trick I gleened from rst. BIKE The rain had made the two U turns on the Bike leg treacherous.  There was a lot of road rash dished out that day.  I’m one of these guys who went from 50 mile weekend bike rides to dreams of Triathlon so I saw this as my chance to shine.  I spun at 20-22 MPH for the first 10 miles. Number 124, the guy next to me (and my arch rival for the day), and I traded leads (without drafting mind you) for most of this time.  Then, after the scary muddy area, I pumped it up to 24 and hammered the rest of the way in.  Each person I passed only made me want to pass another. T2 Note to self: next time remove bike shoes with less enthusiasm.  I think I sent one into orbit.   RUN I do a lot of brick workouts but I spoil myself by taking 10 min to stretch before heading out on the run.  I was curious about how I’d fair after hammering and then directly starting the run.  I was tight and slow but had no pain.  I saw Larry ahead with the camera so I dropped the hammer and passed several people to be at the head of the pack for the picture.  Luckily I kept that momentum going and left that group.  Then two guys reeled me in.  I had two miles to go and decided I wasn’t going to let them stay ahead.  I beat them across the line by about 100 meters. And I became a Triathlete. What I learned… I think I’ve done far too many long slow distance workouts and not enough speed work.  My new plan calls for one speed workout in each discipline once a week.  (I’m open to suggestions, group).  It took me about two strokes into the swim to start seeing triathlon as something to compete in rather than something to just complete.   The best part of the day was meeting people.  I am convinced that people who compete in triathlons are positive, goal oriented people.  I don’t think I saw a frown all day.  There was a sixty-seven year old competitor who looked forty in the face and thirty-five in the body.  It was like a big party full of half naked Dr. Mengela engineered Nazi Uber-Athletes (without all of the genocide and other bad stuff)  My point is everybody looked fit and happy. I can’t wait to do my next one.   Thanks to the Bay Area Triathlon Club for putting on a first class event!   Thanks to r.s.t. for fanning my triathlon flame and inspiring me to make this a reality.  And for any of you reading this who haven’t done a triathlon yet – they ARE as much fun as you think they are. -Al in Houston.

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It’s all speed.  At 40 km/h, I find it’s just a little ‘blip’ and you’re over.  I once cleared a DOUBLE set of tracks that I didn’t see until too late and it was just instinct to hop.  I had just completed a long, fast decent and was still going over 90 km/h.  At that speed, stuff zings by you so fast, you can cover a lot of ground during that .5 seconds you’re airborne. Corey

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Once upon a time, I tried to hop some of those 6" dia "turtles" lane markers you see on the road.  Too late I noticed a second set so I tried to clear both by going higher.  I didn’t make it, hit the far side "turtle", and just barely managed so save a fall.  I did dent two brand new ceramic rims, broke three spokes, and in general scred the p… out of myself. The road surface was that grooved concrete, and I was doing about 35 mph at the time.  I shudder to think how much skin I would have lost if I had gone down.  This was two months ago and I haven’t bunny hopped since. I know, big chicken, but I still have my skin and I haven’t lost any training time… John

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It’s all speed.  At 40 km/h, I find it’s just a little ‘blip’ and you’re over.  I once cleared a DOUBLE set of tracks that I didn’t see until too late and it was just instinct to hop.  I had just completed a long, fast decent and was still going over 90 km/h.  At that speed, stuff zings by you so fast, you can cover a lot of ground during that .5 seconds you’re airborne. Corey

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back in 1987 Mike Pigg showed me how to hop on the bike at the Triathlon Training Camp in Irvine, Ca.  He could almost do a tabletop while cruising. It was pretty wild.  Of course he also opened my eyes to eating when I spotted him eating Fruit Loops for breakfast. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It’s all speed.  At 40 km/h, I find it’s just a little ‘blip’ and you’re over.  I once cleared a DOUBLE set of tracks that I didn’t see until too late and it was just instinct to hop.  I had just completed a long, fast decent and was still going over 90 km/h.  At that speed, stuff zings by you so fast, you can cover a lot of ground during that .5 seconds you’re airborne. Corey

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  Practise.  I find 5 foot long extremely rough cattlestops a good incentive for throwing my bike into the air.  Try jumping sideways over painted lines, hopping kerbs etc. to improve control. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK all you who pride yourselves on being supreme roadies. How about sharing the secrets of how to bunny hop over the railroad tracks? I can bunny hop over trenches about two feet or three feet wide but can’t figure out how to get over the RR tracks. Do you hop twice or do you try to get more length to your hop? And what is the strategy when there are two sets of RR tracks one after the other, instead of just a single set? Any body want to share the secret? I’m tired of wearing my JetStream contents every time I cross the tracks. Cathy Corning

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OK all you who pride yourselves on being supreme roadies. How about sharing the secrets of how to bunny hop over the railroad tracks? I can bunny hop over trenches about two feet or three feet wide but can’t figure out how to get over the RR tracks. Do you hop twice or do you try to get more length to your hop? And what is the strategy when there are two sets of RR tracks one after the other, instead of just a single set? Any body want to share the secret? I’m tired of wearing my JetStream contents every time I cross the tracks. Cathy Corning

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I’ve bunny hopped some strange things (on my road bike), but have never attempted to clear a set of tracks.  That’s a long way to go (remember you have to add your bike wheelbase too) and I wouldn’t recommend it.  Now if one track is particularly bad, go for it, but personally I’d just slow down and cross as close to 90 degrees as I can. John

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK all you who pride yourselves on being supreme roadies. How about sharing the secrets of how to bunny hop over the railroad tracks? I can bunny hop over trenches about two feet or three feet wide but can’t figure out how to get over the RR tracks. Do you hop twice or do you try to get more length to your hop? And what is the strategy when there are two sets of RR tracks one after the other, instead of just a single set? Any body want to share the secret? I’m tired of wearing my JetStream contents every time I cross the tracks. Cathy Corning

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In race: Go slow  for not ruining my "trick-wheels" (or race on training-wheels, if I know it beforehand). In training: Either try to hop loooong (if I am fast enough) or just don’t care and test the new "snake-bite resistant" tubes. Tongue in cheek…. trIneek – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK all you who pride yourselves on being supreme roadies. How about sharing the secrets of how to bunny hop over the railroad tracks? I can bunny hop over trenches about two feet or three feet wide but can’t figure out how to get over the RR tracks. Do you hop twice or do you try to get more length to your hop? And what is the strategy when there are two sets of RR tracks one after the other, instead of just a single set? Any body want to share the secret? I’m tired of wearing my JetStream contents every time I cross the tracks. Cathy Corning

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OK all you who pride yourselves on being supreme roadies. How about sharing the secrets of how to bunny hop over the railroad tracks? I can bunny hop over trenches about two feet or three feet wide but can’t figure out how to get over the RR tracks. Do you hop twice or do you try to get more length to your hop? And what is the strategy when there are two sets of RR tracks one after the other, instead of just a single set?

The length of the bunny hop is directly related to how high you go and how fast you go. If you can clear a three-foot trench, then you can clear a railroad track simply by going twice as fast. Rick "Donning Nomex" Denney

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OK all you who pride yourselves on being supreme roadies. How about sharing the secrets of how to bunny hop over the railroad tracks? I can bunny hop over trenches about two feet or three feet wide but can’t figure out how to get over the RR tracks. Do you hop twice or do you try to get more length to your hop? And what is the strategy when there are two sets of RR tracks one after the other, instead of just a single set? Any body want to share the secret? I’m tired of wearing my JetStream contents every time I cross the tracks. Cathy Corning

i can’t guarantee that you won’t spill your jetstream- but’s all down to your speed.  for me, crossing the rr tracks near perpendicular with a speed of greater than 25mph makes it very easy to clear. Mark Linenberg                                        o                       __o            </_                       <           __/    /o_           (()) (())           /

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My preference is to get off my bike and walk if the track is too rough. It takes time but saves precious liquids and avoids broken bones, etc. Wendy "I have learned to ride across grated bridges" in St. Pete Beach

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The length of the bunny hop is directly related to how high you go and how fast you go. If you can clear a three-foot trench, then you can clear a railroad track simply by going twice as fast.

Been there, done it. Gave it up. Too many rough landings. I used to take pride in the double bunny hop myself. But, be prepared for a serious jolt if you mistime the hop. How I didn’t break a spoke I’ll … oh wait, let’s not go there. Rick might read this -Rolf —     "In rivers, the water that you touch is the last of      which has passed and the first of that which comes:      so with present time."   — Leonardo Da Vinci IMC94-14:07  IMC95-11:59  IMC97-12:12  IMC98-14:02  IMNZ99-11:52

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More speed + more height = more distance. The speed part is obvious – to work on height, practice jumping things that are unlikely to take you down should the attempt go wrong, e.g., cardboard boxes. It might help to practice lofting the front or rear wheel independently before trying them together – most people can their front wheel well off the ground, but getting the rear up there takes practice. I’m sure somebody here will label such bunny-hopping an unnecessarily hazardous showboat move, and maybe it is. Knowing how to do it, though, can sometimes save your skin – I once bunny=hopped a fallen rider’s front wheel in a road race, and I’ve seen people forced wide in criteriums bunny-hop the curb to avoid nailing it head on… Andrew Coggan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK all you who pride yourselves on being supreme roadies. How about sharing the secrets of how to bunny hop over the railroad tracks? I can bunny hop over trenches about two feet or three feet wide but can’t figure out how to get over the RR tracks. Do you hop twice or do you try to get more length to your hop? And what is the strategy when there are two sets of RR tracks one after the other, instead of just a single set? Any body want to share the secret? I’m tired of wearing my JetStream contents every time I cross the tracks. Cathy Corning

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Question:

I have just started riding with my new (used) front J-Disk (JDF) wheel.  It is in excellent condition with a Conti Sprinter Tubular.  I am noticing that the front of the bike seems to me to be skiddish, that is almost wobbly!  Is this because of the deep section?  Is it because the wheel is so light?  Should I give it some more time in training before I abandon it?  It is preventing me from riding at my capable top speeds, especialy down even small hills for fear that I am losing control.  Please advise! — Mercer Craft

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My spinergies do weigh significantly more than lightweight conventional racing wheels. If the rims are the same overall weight, and the same number of spokes are used, and the weight is truly distributed more towards the hub, then the moment of intertia will be reduced slightly. But these conditions are not often true. The material required to make the aero shape on a deep rim is usually enough to make them weigh more than a light conventional rim. And many aero wheels (though certainly not all), such as my Spinergies, have an aluminum rim as weighty as a conventional wheel to hold the tire anyway (especially on clincher wheels), in addition to the extra material required for the aero shape. These wheels achieve lightness more by reducing the number of spokes and the weight of the hubs than by making the rims lighter. These statements are certainly true for aluminum deep section rims, and for many composites as well. Some of the composites, however, are extremely light on the rim despite their aero shape, and they get that lightness by, for example, eliminating the aluminum tire bead and braking surface in favor of carbon-fiber gluing and braking surfaces for sew-up tires only. Generally, though, fewer spokes requires the rime to be structurally stronger between the spokes, which usually adds weight. But, of course, in triathlon we gain much more from the aero shape, which affects work output at a steady speed, than we lose from slightly more weight (even on ther rim), which only affects work output during acceleration (which includes hills). Is it any clearer? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m not trying to disagree or anything, but I can’t right off think of any reason why deep-section wheels should be more nervous because of speed. More nervous in a crosswind, sure. But deep section wheels are relatively weightier on the rim, which should contribute to stability at higher speeds. The reason is that the wheel has a higher moment of intertia, and therefore… <snip Now I’m confused…  I thought that the benefits of deep sections wheels came from both their aerodynamic advanatges _and_ less angular momentum. Less angular momentum resulting in easier acceleration etc… I was under the impression that if you compared two rims of identical weight, one deep section and one conventional, then the deep section rim would have a _lower_ moment of inertia, as more of the rotating mass is closer to the axis of revolution. Thus, the only way your assertion makes sense is if an aero wheel actually weighs more (stationary) than a conventional wheel – is this true? I’m quite willing to be overruled here, as I probably know less about bicycle-wheel design than I do about physics… Andrew xxx

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Well fortunately(maybe unfortunately?) bicycle design is required to obey the laws of physics.  And you are correct, the closer the mass is to the center of the rim, the lower it’s moment of inertia, and the lower your moment of inertia, the better your acceleration.  This is only true for wheels of the same weight(actually mass).  I would also think that typical deep section wheels are heavier than normal box sections. One thing that I have heard is that Aero wheels can generate a lateral force in an angled head wind similar to the lift force of an aircraft wing.  This could be a source of nervousness or instability as this force oscillates due to the changes in wind speed and direction. Eddie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m not trying to disagree or anything, but I can’t right off think of any reason why deep-section wheels should be more nervous because of speed. More nervous in a crosswind, sure. But deep section wheels are relatively weightier on the rim, which should contribute to stability at higher speeds. The reason is that the wheel has a higher moment of intertia, and therefore… <snip Now I’m confused…  I thought that the benefits of deep sections wheels came from both their aerodynamic advanatges _and_ less angular momentum. Less angular momentum resulting in easier acceleration etc… I was under the impression that if you compared two rims of identical weight, one deep section and one conventional, then the deep section rim would have a _lower_ moment of inertia, as more of the rotating mass is closer to the axis of revolution. Thus, the only way your assertion makes sense is if an aero wheel actually weighs more (stationary) than a conventional wheel – is this true? I’m quite willing to be overruled here, as I probably know less about bicycle-wheel design than I do about physics… Andrew xxx

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I’m not trying to disagree or anything, but I can’t right off think of any reason why deep-section wheels should be more nervous because of speed. More nervous in a crosswind, sure. But deep section wheels are relatively weightier on the rim, which should contribute to stability at higher speeds. The reason is that the wheel has a higher moment of intertia, and therefore…

<snip Now I’m confused…  I thought that the benefits of deep sections wheels came from both their aerodynamic advanatges _and_ less angular momentum. Less angular momentum resulting in easier acceleration etc… I was under the impression that if you compared two rims of identical weight, one deep section and one conventional, then the deep section rim would have a _lower_ moment of inertia, as more of the rotating mass is closer to the axis of revolution. Thus, the only way your assertion makes sense is if an aero wheel actually weighs more (stationary) than a conventional wheel – is this true? I’m quite willing to be overruled here, as I probably know less about bicycle-wheel design than I do about physics… Andrew xxx

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Deep section wheels by their very nature are more nervous the faster you go, This may or may not be exaccerbated by the dynamics of your frame and the rest of your bike.  More practice will help, a less deep rim will mis behave less , something like a J2 from Hed. Deal with it Love TomP

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I’m not trying to disagree or anything, but I can’t right off think of any reason why deep-section wheels should be more nervous because of speed. More nervous in a crosswind, sure. But deep section wheels are relatively weightier on the rim, which should contribute to stability at higher speeds. The reason is that the wheel has a higher moment of intertia, and therefore a higher gyroscopic stability. Of course, gyroscopic inertia is a minor contributor to stability on bicycles, with frame geometry and material properties being very much greater factors. So I thought that maybe the material properties of a deep-section rim might override the increased gyroscopic inertia, as it does with a solid disk. Perhaps one might argue that a very stiff structural rim won’t have the shock absorption of a lightweight rim with spokes. But that doesn’t jibe with my experience, which says that Spinerys, with a very stiff structural rim and very few spokes, are much less nervous than very light 32-spoke racing wheels. And a disk is not more nervous (sans crosswind), it’s just more uncomfortable. Am I missing some basic point? Could you explain your thinking? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Deep section wheels by their very nature are more nervous the faster you go, This may or may not be exaccerbated by the dynamics of your frame and the rest of your bike.  More practice will help, a less deep rim will mis behave less , something like a J2 from Hed. Deal with it Love TomP

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What exactly do you mean by skittish? If the front of the bike wobbles at speed – I had that problem once too, and it was scary. At 30 mph or so the bike began to wobble violenly starting with the front end. It all ceased when I got a new headset. So you night want to consider this. Not sure, then, swap out the J wheel you are using and put on a regular wheel. Does the problem still occur? Is your tire glued on straight, or is there a deviation in its tread line. Never heard of this but I’d check it. Also check hub and spokes. Who knows? I think the definitive test though would be to see how things go with another wheel and compare. Good Luck

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Question:

RE: Latta Plantation Park Triathlon (6/15 — Charlotte NC) If you haven’t received your race results yet you should soon.  I talked to an organizer about it Tuesday.  They were just about to mail via bulk rate when the Post Office changed the requirements for such mail.  They hope to have everything out this week. Larry O

Thanks for the info. I’ve been wondering about the delay. (But I’ve been too lazy to bother checking up on it) Chris Christopher N. Baucom "Mama always told me not to look into the eyes of the sun. But Mama, that’s where the fun is!"

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RE: Latta Plantation Park Triathlon (6/15 — Charlotte NC) If you haven’t received your race results yet you should soon.  I talked to an organizer about it Tuesday.  They were just about to mail via bulk rate when the Post Office changed the requirements for such mail.  They hope to have everything out this week. Larry O

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Question:

Hello, I am an aspiring backcountry skier, a triathlete, and want to get more serious on backcountry.  Firstly, what kind of skies should I look at buying?  Are there any legal land restrictions or rules I should follow on a tour?  Where are some good beginning routes in Manitoba, Saskatchewan, or Ontario, Canada?  Any information at all would be greatly appreciated!

There is a lot of backcountry in SE Manitoba/NW Ontario. This is Canadian Shield country… very sparsely populated wilderness. Getting around on skiis is not always easy: slushy lakes, thick bush, and cold make for interesting backcountry challenges. One thing you don’t have to worry about is avalanches!

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Hello, I am an aspiring backcountry skier, a triathlete, and want to get more serious on backcountry.  Firstly, what kind of skies should I look at buying?  Are there any legal land restrictions or rules I should follow on a tour?  Where are some good beginning routes in Manitoba, Saskatchewan, or Ontario, Canada?  Any information at all would be greatly appreciated!

As to skis to buy, check with triathletes.  I ski the old-fashioned way, on waxedand pine-tarred, wooden Norwegian (Bonna) skis with Rottefeller bindings. As to legal restrictions, I suspect one can ski anywhere on Crown land unless it’s restricted.  Also, my experience is the provincial parks people have lots of info on outdoors stuff such as canoe routes, trekking, snow machining, skiing, etc. Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Ontario are all pretty flat.  But it’s trackless country and very easy to get lost.  Be prepared, both in terms of how you prepare (get to know the area, leave word of your plans; talk to experienced locals; local snow machiner clubs can probably help) and the outdoor skills you have. Play it safe, give yourself broad margin of safety until you know what your abilities are. El estado normal de my vida es decadencia permanente. Adaptado de Jose Ortega y Gasset

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Hello, I am an aspiring backcountry skier, a triathlete, and want to get more serious on backcountry.  Firstly, what kind of skies should I look at buying?  Are there any legal land restrictions or rules I should follow on a tour?  Where are some good beginning routes in Manitoba, Saskatchewan, or Ontario, Canada?  Any information at all would be greatly appreciated!

There are books and there is this newsgroup but neither medium can substitute for talking with and skiing with experienced people.  The best places to meet the people are at a touring center or at places like MEC, REI, or the best specialty (backcountry, skiing, climbing, outdoor) shops you can find.  Also check some magazines for phone numbers; Couloir, Backcountry, and Outside in particular.  However even the big circulation ski mags. will have something interesting occasionally. Denis Bogan Annandale, VA

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Hello, I am an aspiring backcountry skier, a triathlete, and want to get more serious on backcountry.  Firstly, what kind of skies should I look at buying?  Are there any legal land restrictions or rules I should follow on a tour?  Where are some good beginning routes in Manitoba, Saskatchewan, or Ontario, Canada?  Any information at all would be greatly appreciated!

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Question:

I like a race director who listens to the masses. I hope my schedule allows me to do some of Tom’s races.  

Damn, There go my hopes at winning any of these races! If we want officials to be tough, we’re going to have to live with some tough calls.  I hope no one complains about being penalized for drafting.

Amen on this one, Jimmy. It’s been a long time since I’ve seen a hockey player tell the referee "He jumped in front of my stick, ref! I’m not going to the penalty box! Okay, fine, I just won’t play in your games anymore." If you get caught, take some personal responsibility. Amen on this one, Jimmy. A group trained by the athletes.  Athletes who know what drafting is.  

5 meters is really easy to recognize. It’s smaller than a semi and larger than a yugo. Even untrained dopes can tell the difference. Thanks for listening Tom.

Ditto. Joshua Allen

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Mr. Ziebart: I commend you on your decision to eliminate drafting from your races. Know I will once again compete in your race series during 1996.  I live in Sarasota and my training partners all boycotted the Siesta Key race (as well as the rest of the series) because of your drafting policy.  We all spent the summer at the Clermont races due to Fred’s no drafting policy.   Thanks for the change of heart.  I will see you at YOUR races in 1996. Neil McCurry

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It’s time to name the officials, give them attention for doing an utterly thankless job, recognize the most deserving ones in the awards ceremonies, and generally make it worth their while to make efficient although unpopular calls.

An excellent idea which, I think, deserves serious consideration. After all, who officiates the World Series or the Super Bowl? Some guy who lives near the stadium and owns a striped shirt and whistle? Of course not. They’re there because they distiguished themselves during the regular season. I know someone who marshals USCF bicycle races. He had to first become a certified official. He spends most of his weekends traveling around the state, working at races. He is paid for his services. The racers throughout the state recognize him and appreciate his professionalism. Of course, most of those races are "pack" situations, but USCF officials also monitor time trials. I know that race organizers don’t have the budget to hire enough such people to monitor an entire tri bike course. However, if each race had a "certified" marshal to provide a training session for the volunteer marshals, and to be out patroling the course on race day, the situation would probably improve noticeably. Additionally, the volunteer marshals might receive some inspiration from working with a "professional", and some would probably decide they like it enough to become certified themselves. Well, enough rambling for now. I guess not everyone will agree with me, but it’s food for thought. Chris Christopher N. Baucom Gastonia, NC

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It’s time to name the officials, give them attention for doing an utterly thankless job, recognize the most deserving ones in the awards ceremonies, and generally make it worth their while to make efficient although unpopular calls. Ruth Kazez I believe that most officials do the best job possible in making sure that rules are followed in a USAT sancitons event.  The problem is with the number of officials needed to properly officiate a race.  With 500 participants – 3-5 motorcycles with officials on them cannot see everthing.  That is the main problem with officiating the drafting rules. At some point during the race, athletes will be able to draft and not be in view of an official.  It is very easy to move out of a drafting zone when you hear a motorcycle coming up in back of you on a bike course.  I am looking forward to going back to non-drafting races in the hope that we will see a greater number of participants.  I am not looking forward to the after race confrontations with upset athletes about drafting call or the lack of drafting calls.   Also USAT has many fine officials but they cannot be at every race on every weekend.  I am sure that the Gatorade Triathlon Series will get the best officials possible in the area that the race takes place.   Tom Ziebart – Exclusive Sports Marketing

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I believe that most officials do the best job possible in making sure that rules are followed in a USAT sancitons event.  The problem is with the number of officials needed to properly officiate a race.  With 500 participants – 3-5 motorcycles with officials on them cannot see everthing.  That is the main problem with officiating the drafting rules.

Here on rst we have read about draft marshals that don’t give "stop and goes".  This is a simple solution for that official, but if he (or she) started to give out draft calls, the rumours will fly with the wind, and next year less people will draft. So in my oppinon, you dont have to increase the numbers of marshalls by many, just tell them to enforce the rules more strict. I have background from a sport quite populare in Norway, its a sport called telemark.  It’s much like slalom, but you have to do the turns in a specific way.  If you dont do it the right way, you get a penalty (added to your time).  Well, at some races the judges was not as strict as others, competitors knew this, by experience, so some races we (and those who knew about this)relaxed our style (thus going faster), and at some races we focused not to do a wrong turn. What I am saying is that by starting to enforce it as it is supposed to be enforced, the word will be passed around that it is not benificial to draft. voice: +47-73.59.14.92 http://www.ktek.unit.no/ansatte/kaj/index.htm

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I like a race director who listens to the masses. I hope my schedule allows me to do some of Tom’s races.  If I receive a penalty for drafting, I promise not to bitch.  This is a big promise from me, as I’m quite the bitcher. If we want officials to be tough, we’re going to have to live with some tough calls.  I hope no one complains about being penalized for drafting. In my twelve years as a triathlete, I’ve learned one thing:  If you get penalized for drafting, you certainly deserve it.  I’ve learned that you have to try pretty hard to be penalized for drafting.  The calls just aren’t made that often.   It’s time we take the burden off the race director and the athlete, and put it on the officials.  It is, after all, their job.  Volunteer or not. I hate the "I’m a volunteer excuse."  If you don’t want the responsibility, don’t volunteer. As an athlete, I want competent officiating.  I’m willing to have some $’s added to my license fee to pay a select group of officials.  A group trained by the athletes.  Athletes who know what drafting is.   I think the stagger rule should be adopted by USAT.  The pros use it, and it works quite well.  I think it can work in the age groups, and it certainly simplifies the official’s job, and makes it easier for the official to make the race as fair as possible. Thanks for listening Tom. Sincerely, Jimmy Riccitello

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I like a race director who listens to the masses. I hope my schedule allows me to do some of Tom’s races.

Way to go, Jimmy!  After watching your "solo" against the pack at St. Croix, you’ve certainly earned the right to bitch about drafting all you want… By the way, QRMan indicated in a recent post that you’ve joined his camp, so maybe he can make it worth your while to adjust your schedule and support Z’s series. I think the stagger rule should be adopted by USAT.  The pros use it, and it works quite well.  I think it can work in the age groups, and it certainly simplifies the official’s job, and makes it easier for the official to make the race as fair as possible.

What’s the "stagger rule"?  Do you mean starting the athletes in smaller, staggered groups, like Memphis in May and Bally’s in Minneapolis?  This is a great format, though the only place I’ve ever experienced it is in a small local Park District race in my hometown.  I still like the idea of a swim divided into three even "lanes", using the two outside lanes for swimming out and sharing the center lane for swimming back (Skylands Tri in NJ uses this format).  You could send ten at a time (by race bib number), five in each lane, every 20-30 seconds.  A race with 600 people would take about 20-30:00 to start every competitor, and they’d be nicely spread out by the end of the swim. See you at the races- Mike Llerandi

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I expect to again here the complaints at each race next year that someone was drafting and the officials did not make the correct call.

It’s time to name the officials, give them attention for doing an utterly thankless job, recognize the most deserving ones in the awards ceremonies, and generally make it worth their while to make efficient although unpopular calls. Ruth Kazez

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Nice way to start the 96 season. –

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writes: The 1996 Gatorade Triathlon Series will not allow drafting the elite division.  Each race of the series will follow Tri-Fed USA drafting rules in all divisions.  The final series achedule will be set on January 15th, 1996.  Call ESM at 407-241-3801 for more information.  Z Tom Ziebart – Exclusive Sports Marketing

Hooray!  

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Path: msunews!uwm.edu!hookup!news.umbc.edu!umbc10.umbc.edu!awilke1 Newsgroups: rec.sport.triathlon Awesome!!! How ’bout bringing some races to the MD-VA-DE region. Andy

Don’t forget PA. Rod

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The 1996 Gatorade Triathlon Series will not allow drafting the elite division.  Each race of the series will follow Tri-Fed USA drafting rules in all divisions.  The final series achedule will be set on January 15th, 1996.  Call ESM at 407-241-3801 for more information.  Z Tom Ziebart – Exclusive Sports Marketing

Tom, This is GREAT!!!!!!!  I’m just curious, why the change of heart? Are you going to write a rebutal to your previous script in 220? Thanks!!!! Lucy

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Good for you, Tom! I questioned your motivation for allowing drafting this year, but despite criticism from myself and many others, you stuck with your guns. This is quite admirable. Now you have done something that deserves even greater applause. You have changed your mind. To reverse your previous decision (for whatever reason) takes more courage than many of us will ever have. Conviction in one’s beliefs in the face of criticism is rare today. Open-mindedness is an endangered species altogether. Congratulations, Tom. You have shown us all that triathlon and its spirit is alive and well. Sincerely, Josh Allen

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Thank you for all of the postive comments about ESM getting rid of drafting in the elite divisions of the Gatorade Triathlon Series.  Many of you have asked why we changed our minds about drafting.  Basically it was a finacial move – a number of athletes would not participate in draft legal races and we need people to participate in order to make the race budgets work.  The cost of officials is easily covered by the 10-15 athletes that will participate now the we have made this change back to non-drafting races. The draft legal elite division went well this summer – no complaints from athletes about drafting violation.  We had some fantastic races with a number of close finishes with the draft legal format.  I  beleive that there is a place in the sport for draft legal races, based on the type of course that the RD has to work with.   I expect to again here the complaints at each race next year that someone was drafting and the officials did not make the correct call.  But i will gladly listen to these complaints and count the extra $200- $300 in entry fees that we would have missed from a draft legal event. The power is in you pocketbook, but I still don’t think that is of any concern to the ITU..  Z Tom Ziebart – Exclusive Sports Marketing

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The 1996 Gatorade Triathlon Series will not allow drafting the elite division.  Each race of the series will follow Tri-Fed USA drafting rules in all divisions.  The final series achedule will be set on January 15th, 1996.  Call ESM at 407-241-3801 for more information.  Z Tom Ziebart – Exclusive Sports Marketing

Response:

The 1996 Gatorade Triathlon Series will not allow drafting the elite division.  Each race of the series will follow Tri-Fed USA drafting rules in all divisions.  

EXCELLENT! —                   __o       o                 _ <_      <      __/o_    (_)/(_)     /

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Tom,  See you at the races. Andrew Peabody

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I think thats great news for the integrity of TriFed’s position, Thanks Tom. Bruce Platt

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No drafting at Gatorade. Hooooray! Brian Sullivan

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The 1996 Gatorade Triathlon Series will not allow drafting the elite division.  Each race of the series will follow Tri-Fed USA drafting rules in all divisions.  The final series achedule will be set on January 15th, 1996.  Call ESM at 407-241-3801 for more information.  Z Tom Ziebart – Exclusive Sports Marketing

Alright Tom!!!!   Let’s us know how it goes. (I’m sure you will) Finally someone is willing to pay attention.  I curious to see how this compares with last years series. John (If I’m in the area.. now I would race one of these) K.

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Cheers!!! Way to go Tom!! I will participate!!!! Thanks! Sam

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More fun for everyone!  Now I will really know how bad my times are compared to the elites. (No sarcasm intended at all)                                            Byron

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Finally, some good news!

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Question:

Well, I’ve had just about the worst triathlon season so far (this was my fifth).  This year made the mono year and the shin splint year look good!

I’ve had a pretty lousy season, too – only one race where I felt strong.  First I had to take off the first half of the season with a groin pull. I was injured from January through June (had to skip Orange County for the

Those are better excuses than mine.  My injury was a sprained ankle, which I got from tripping over a walnut!  I also missed a lot of training from unneccesary carousing and a whimpy attitude towards the weather. first time in five years!!!!).  Then, of course, we decided to have another kid, and *whammo* of course I get pregnant that very second, so suddenly I have to be very careful and NO summer races.  

Doesn’t that put it in perspective?  I’ve justified my lousy season on the fact that I really needed to party more this year.  I’ve also learned that races can be fun even if you don’t race at your best – I’ve had some very nice mornings getting workouts in the fresh air, I’ve met lots of new triathletes, and at Mrs. T’s I’ve experienced the nastiest soda known to man – Big Red. You take care of the baby.  Next year you will be eating hills for breakfast after running with the baby jogger.   Then, I finally compromise on doing the swim leg of the Human Race this weekend.  But does my wetsuit fit anymore?  NO-O-O-O-O!!!  I look like a giant sausage woman with an Ace bandage around my chest, which pretty much makes it  (gasp) hard to breathe on land, let alone in the water.  So I have to swim this with just my own skin (and a suit of course) as protection from that yucky toilet bowl that is Newport Dunes.  I’ll be the one with no wetsuit (and NO waist!). inevitable, isn’t it? )

How about this for a flame: Get your priorities straight.  Babies are more improtant than triathlons and pregnant women shouldn’t feel self-conscious about their bodies. — Dan Reiley, Ph.D.         AT&T Bell Labs    Naperville, IL

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Well, I’ve had just about the worst triathlon season so far (this was my fifth).  This year made the mono year and the shin splint year look good!   First I had to take off the first half of the season with a groin pull. I was injured from January through June (had to skip Orange County for the first time in five years!!!!).  Then, of course, we decided to have another kid, and *whammo* of course I get pregnant that very second, so suddenly I have to be very careful and NO summer races.      Then, I finally compromise on doing the swim leg of the Human Race this weekend.  But does my wetsuit fit anymore?  NO-O-O-O-O!!!  I look like a giant sausage woman with an Ace bandage around my chest, which pretty much makes it  (gasp) hard to breathe on land, let alone in the water.  So I have to swim this with just my own skin (and a suit of course) as protection from that yucky toilet bowl that is Newport Dunes.  I’ll be the one with no wetsuit (and NO waist!).   Seriously, I’m glad that the pregnancy is going fine (this time!) but I miss my races!  I miss aerobars and Black Widow rides!  Thank God for Tricia’s race reports or I’d really be depressed.  I always feel like I’m the one doing the race when I’m reading those.  Maybe next year….. (after I recover from March’s activities, of course!) Keep those race reports coming!! inevitable, isn’t it? )      TriGal

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another kid, and *whammo* of course I get pregnant that very second, so

Just thought you might like to know. Last summer, one of my training partners was the mother of four girls, ages 2 to 10. She did her first Ironman a year ago in Martha’s Vineyard and found out a few weeks later that she was pregnant. Not a woman to be stopped, she swam, biked, and ran (in moderation) right up until the baby was born. In fact, she swam the swim leg of a local triathlon in June for a team, and went into labor that afternoon before giving birth to a beautiful baby boy later that night. Somehow, she did manage to find a wetsuit to fit her for that swim. I do recall everyone at masters swim team bringing in wetsuits one morning for her to try them on. Luckily she was able to squeeze into one of them. And I do mean squeeze… Cathy Corning

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TriGal,   I won’t flame you. You missed this season through no fault of you own (blame your husband? for the pregnancy thing) and you’re peeved!  Hell, if I missed this season (and therefore missed my first Ironman) I’d be posting to rst lamenting my woes as well.   All I can really advise is: Think of all the niggling little injuries that will now have time to heal. I think your timing of your pregnancy was a little off. Maybe you should’ve run a cold shower for your husband until about april. Then give him the time of day! You could then have done the first part of the season (something at least) missed the later part of the season and then missed the post season blahs ( your focus would’ve been on the pregnancy) and then given birth January some time. Who wants to be pregnant in the heat of summer anyway? (skiers excepted) You would’ve had a couple of months to get back in shape for the season. A planned late start to the season may be required but at least your not missing either season.   I realise it’s a little late to take this advice but maybe it’ll be of help to some others.   Maybe you could test out whether reading tri mags and watching tris on tv lead to better kids of steel. Sorta like listening to classical music while pregnant.  Let us know. TriDork (somehow on our sysadmin account)

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Congratulations on your pregnancy and upcoming new child!  Since I watched my wife go through it last year, I’ve decided that pregnancy is very cool, and that doing an Ironman pales in comparison to child birth (I took 10:49 to finish Kona, my wife took nearly 52 hours to squirt out Hayes).  And I think it is very cool of you to do a relay swim while pregnant as well.   One of the beautiful things about this sport, IMO is the age-group set-up.  If things didn’t go well this year, there’s always the next! Timothy — Timothy Gotsick

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Question:

deleted..    I know there’s a magic bullet out there  somewhere.  Huddle

It’s pierogies, ask Paula.   |       Ray Plotecia            | |       Image Control           |

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The backlash was the same here on rst for the ad. Some opposed, some lo= ved it. But the end result? DeSoto was quite happy with the *positive* response and today everyone has forgotten about it. I really didn’t think the DeSoto ads were that questionable  However, I really wonder about those new ones for "Naked Engery" where the=20 have a naked women rockclimbing.  They’ve run these ads for about=20 2-3 issues and I have yet to see any backlash.  I feel if people=20 were going to throw up a stink, this one would really get them (more so then DeSoto or even the "buttwoman" ads).  It’s totally blatent. John (I now only post when JJ does) K.

   Interesting. I had the opposite response. I thought the "buttwoman" ad = was blatant (and poorly execute, to boot), with little to do with the prod= uct or reality. Naked jogging? Haven’t seen that since the Oscars. DeSoto = ad? Just more "sex sells" philosophy. IT cover? Seems questionable, but ma= ybe intentions were pure, who knows? Now, I know I’m on very thin ice, but=  I actually liked the Naked Energy ad. It’s an awesome photograph, an impr= essive climb if the photo’s not a composite, and at least there’s some tie= -in, however tenuous with the product’s name. (Think they named it just so=  they could run this ad, maybe?!) I found it sensuous rather than exploita= tive, though no doubt it is both. But blatant? If anything I thought it ha= d a shade more class than any of the others, as odd as that may sound.    I’m still not buying their product. After all, where’s her pocket to ca= rry this miracle energy source, with which one is entirely equipped, to th= e extent that one need not even bring clothes?    Oh, and Competitor did recieve some poison pen letters, printed one in = last issue’s letters to the editor, (along with the ad again) and invited = responses. I thought I should, but I’m still not entirely sure exactly why=  I find it any more acceptable than other similarly-aimed ads. Maybe I’ll = take my lumps here first.    Man, can we digress around here or what?!!!! {:-) Kurian Davis   =20

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Triathlon Times is doing a great job of promoting our sport.  The recent issue boasts about using steroids.  Two issues ago, Cam Widoff is on the cover wearing his singlet which states "Will race for food". These two blips are doing a great job of showing the physical and financial health of our sport. Wes

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Triathlon Times is doing a great job of promoting our sport.  The recent issue boasts about using steroids.  Two issues ago, Cam Widoff is on the cover wearing his singlet which states "Will race for food". These two blips are doing a great job of showing the physical and financial health of our sport. Wes

That now famous ad is also in San Diego’s Competitor magazine. Since Inside Triathlon sells the ad space for Triathlon Times, it, too, is involved. Though I think the ad is a crock, I still can’t condemn the mags because ad dollars are so hard to come by and it’s a low profit/high stress (if any profit) venture. Plus, some of the ads for more legit products are also suspect on the truth-o-meter. What about those? Who can judge? Maybe the way to stop lame ads like that would be to contact the advertiser and let them know the ad misses the mark in the tri world. I think  a lot of advertisers are clueless as to who triathletes really are. — JJ

Response:

Though I think the ad is a crock, I still can’t condemn the mags because ad dollars are so hard to come by and it’s a low profit/high stress (if any profit) venture. Plus, some of the ads for more legit products are also suspect on the truth-o-meter. What about those? Who can judge?

Jeffrey, Your comments and previous posts on this matter strike me with a very hands-off, "Don’t-look-at-me, guys!" tone. Quite interesting, given that you were the editor at 220 when the ad was placed. Surely there was some discussion among the magazine’s small staff (including publisher John Lilly and ad director Eddie Marks), as to whether the ad met the publishers’ standards. I guess it did, huh? I don’t buy the "we’ll-take-anybody’s-money" argument. The money spent on that small, black+white ad in the back of the magazine was minimal. For that, 220 lowered its standards? As a new magazine, 220 had an entirely clean slate. No messy past, no garbage. I think it lost quite a bit of respect when it included that ad. Let’s see … I haven’t seen the first issue of Multisport, Bill Katovsky’s new magazine that was supposed to debut at the bike show in Anaheim, but my guess is that we won’t see the same steroids ad there. Publishers make choices. You take an ad, or you don’t. 220 did. Katherine Williams

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Jeffrey, Your comments and previous posts on this matter strike me with a very hands-off, "Don’t-look-at-me, guys!" tone. Quite interesting, given that you were the editor at 220 when the ad was placed. Surely there was some discussion among the magazine’s small staff (including publisher John Lilly and ad director Eddie Marks), as to whether the ad met the publishers’ standards. I guess it did, huh?

For the record:   No. No serious discussions about the ad took place.  If you want me to take ultimate responsibility for it. OK, I do. I was editor at the time. (It also had nothing to do with my departure.) I don’t buy the "we’ll-take-anybody’s-money" argument. The money spent on that small, black+white ad in the back of the magazine was minimal. For that, 220 lowered its standards?

No standards were lowered at 220. As I have said previously, I think that the ad, and a number of other ads in all the magazines are a crock, but not illegal. The product is not anabolic steroids. I’m just saying that due to my past experience in these matters, I’ve stopped being the judge and jury on the morality of ads. I’ve done that before . * I’m more concerned with quasi-sponsored editorial and product reviews. But that isn’t admissable as evidence in this thread. As a new magazine, 220 had an entirely clean slate. No messy past, no garbage. I think it lost quite a bit of respect when it included that ad.

I don’t think 220 Magazine lost any respect due to that particular ad. Let’s see … I haven’t seen the first issue of Multisport, Bill Katovsky’s new magazine that was supposed to debut at the bike show in Anaheim, but my guess is that we won’t see the same steroids ad there.

I was at Anaheim checking out the new stuff. Bill Katovsky’s new magazine "Multisport" does not have the ad, but I’m sure he would welcome it. However,  Triathlete Magazine (which you write for) does have the evil ad, and so does the seemingly innocent Inside Triathlon and Tri-Fed’s Triathlon Times and San Diego’s Competitor.  So it would appear, according to your argument , that all the magazines lost an equal amount of respect and all lowered their standards. Publishers make choices. You take an ad, or you don’t. 220 did.

Looks like they made the choice–all of them. The magazines are not the Bible and God is not the sitting editor at any magazine at this time. If we had to approve the morality of every ad, there wouldn’t be too many. The number for Anabolic Chem is 1-800-653-6052. Why doesn’t everyone call them? Do any of the resident MD/scientist (jenky?)  know what this boron stero complex really is? — JJ

Response:

Maybe I’m not the best one to wade into this issue, especially since I haven’t even seen the ad, but try this on for size. Way back as a sophomore undergrad I took an insurance class(hey, it was interesting and filled my humanities requirements) and the teacher introduced us to this novel concept known as "buyer beware".  There are a lot of people out there trying to make a buck, and willing to tell you what you want to hear just so you’ll give them some cash.  The point is that everyone is, or should be, aware of this fact and be sure to check out the product and the seller before leaping headlong into the purchase.  Now if your stupid enough to buy something that I understand is advertised as being just like steroids only safer, then I think you get what you deserve.  I don’t blame any of the magazines for running the ad, you just have to realize that its an ad. If you want to take this one step further you can say that all the whining about this ad is an example of what’s wrong with the US and maybe even the world. People don’t seem to want to take responsibility for their decisions and actions anymore.  They’re not willing to admit that they made a mistake and learn from it but would rather regulate and litigate until the entire legal system falls apart.  Case in point is the people who sued the bicycle company about a year ago because their son was hit by a car while riding at night.  They claimed that there should have been some kind of warning on the bicycle saying that it was not safe to ride in the dark even though that’s painfully obvious. I’m sorry if I’ve gotten off track with this, but give me a break already. Just use your brain a little before you buy something.  If it sounds too good to be true then it probably is, and in most cases you get what you pay for.  OK, I think I’m all caught up on my cliches for today. —    Stacy J. Hills    Code 8222, Bldg 116                  Phone: (401) 841-4504    Naval Undersea Warfare Center        FAX:   (401) 841-2223    Newport, RI 02841                    DSN:   948-4504

Response:

Couldn’t help but notice the prominently-placed ad on the Marketplace page of the August issue of the US-220 magazine.  It screams: STEROIDS Higher testerone means faster