Question:

Hi,     all of my swimming to date has been indoor.  I’m currently looking at wetsuits with a view to doing a bit of openwater swimming in the near future but I was wondering about buoyancy.  I guess that wearing a full wetsuit will increase my buoyancy but is there much difference between indoor pools, saltwater and freshwater? Regards, FS

Response:

Hi,    all of my swimming to date has been indoor.  I’m currently looking at wetsuits with a view to doing a bit of openwater swimming in the near future but I was wondering about buoyancy.  I guess that wearing a full wetsuit will increase my buoyancy but is there much difference between indoor pools, saltwater and freshwater? Regards, FS

Fresh water in pools would be very similar in density to fresh water in lakes and streams.  Both will have a density that is very close to the pure water density of 997 g/L at 25

Question:

something, but are 3ft swells supposed to be a problem? Sounds just like Alcatraz last year.   — I do believe that 3 foot swells in fresh water ( i assume it was fresh) are considerably more difficult to swim in than equil conditions in salt water. Having had experience boating on some large bodies of fresh water made a believer out of me.   The differences in bouyancy become very apparent when wave action picks up.   I have never had the experience of swimming in rough "choppy" fresh water so could be wrong but am glad I was not there.

I have, and I’ve seen no difference from salt water with regard to the effects of wave action.

Response:

I do believe that 3 foot swells in fresh water ( i assume it was fresh) are considerably more difficult to swim in than equil conditions in salt water. I have never had the experience of swimming in rough "choppy" fresh water so could be wrong but am glad I was not there. I do almost all of my open water swimming in Lake Champlain

Which is much deeper.  Wave action is the same salt or fresh, but depth is a factor.

Response:

Why not postpone the race a day? I understand volunteer support would be difficult but if I were a competitor that had already spent many months training and paid the high entry fee, I know I’d have stuck around another day to do the whole thing. Dan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you haven’t seen on ironmanlive.com, IM Utah has been changed to a duathlon this morning. Apparently the winds kicked up to 25-30 mph this morning and Utah Lake became Utah ocean with swells up to 3 feet. Swimmers were carried off course, for those who even attempted to swim it. Lifeguard boats were even being capsized. The swim was called off and boats brought in all the remaining swimmers. Apparently some pro’s did make the entire swim. An athletes meeting was held and it was decided the race would be changed to a duathlon with a bike of 60-65 miles and a run of 13.1 miles. Beginning at 10 a.m. the pro waves would start off in 15 sec intervals (women going first) and then the age groupers would go off in 3 sec intervals. It was expected to take about 90 mins to get everyone going. check out www.ironmanlive.com and click on the utah banner for more updates. There have got to be some bummed athletes out there today, that’s for sure.

Response:

Apart from the problems with volunteers, permits, etc. in postponing the race a day, as a Utah resident I have to point out that Provo rolls up its sidewalks on Sundays…

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why not postpone the race a day? I understand volunteer support would be difficult but if I were a competitor that had already spent many months training and paid the high entry fee, I know I’d have stuck around another day to do the whole thing. Dan

Response:

Also, besides the buoyency of salt water, Alcatraz swim happens when there are favorable tide conditions.  No such conditions exist in a lake. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Utah lake is a very shallow lake. When the wind blows it create waves very close together. It is much different than an ocean swell. Also most boats on the lake are very small and are made for calm recreational use. I had a message from a friend racing in Provo who said three feet number was way low.  The other thing is that the swells were coming one right after and almost on top of one another, more like a washing machine than ocean swells.  It was definitely nothing like Alcatraz, but rather much worse. From a pro’s perspective, Petr Vabrousek has his RR up on xtri.com where he mentions surfing back in. clm in sf Hadn’t thought about that! I was wondering the same thing about 3 foot swell being a big deal, but I guess they would be on a 2.4 mile freshwater swim. thanks for posting Ken.  boats is something, but are 3ft swells supposed to be a problem? Sounds just like Alcatraz last year.   — I do believe that 3 foot swells in fresh water ( i assume it was  fresh) are considerably more difficult to swim in than equil conditions in salt  water. Having had experience boating on some large bodies of fresh water made  a believer out of me.   The differences in bouyancy become very apparent  when wave action picks up.   I have never had the experience of swimming in  rough "choppy" fresh water so could be wrong but am glad I was not there. — cathy morgan san francisco, ca

Response:

I wonder if it would be feasible to have a triathlon swim in the Great Salt Lake, or some arm of it.  You’d get plenty of buoyency.  The downside is those who tend to ingest very much water as they swim would end up OD’ing on salt and whatever pollution is in the lake, thus the length of the swim might have to be limited for health reasons.  This might be a swim where you’d actually want to carry a water bottle. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Also, besides the buoyency of salt water, Alcatraz swim happens when there are favorable tide conditions.  No such conditions exist in a lake. Utah lake is a very shallow lake. When the wind blows it create waves very close together. It is much different than an ocean swell. Also most boats on the lake are very small and are made for calm recreational use. I had a message from a friend racing in Provo who said three feet number was way low.  The other thing is that the swells were coming one right after and almost on top of one another, more like a washing machine than ocean swells.  It was definitely nothing like Alcatraz, but rather much worse. From a pro’s perspective, Petr Vabrousek has his RR up on xtri.com where he mentions surfing back in. clm in sf Hadn’t thought about that! I was wondering the same thing about 3 foot swell being a big deal, but I guess they would be on a 2.4 mile freshwater swim. thanks for posting Ken.  boats is something, but are 3ft swells supposed to be a problem? Sounds just like Alcatraz last year.   — I do believe that 3 foot swells in fresh water ( i assume it was  fresh) are considerably more difficult to swim in than equil conditions in salt  water. Having had experience boating on some large bodies of fresh water made  a believer out of me.   The differences in bouyancy become very apparent  when wave action picks up.   I have never had the experience of swimming in  rough "choppy" fresh water so could be wrong but am glad I was not there. — cathy morgan san francisco, ca

Response:

I wonder if it would be feasible to have a triathlon swim in the Great Salt Lake, or some arm of it.  You’d get plenty of buoyency.  The downside is those who tend to ingest very much water as they swim would end up OD’ing on salt and whatever pollution is in the lake, thus the length of the swim might have to be limited for health reasons.  This might be a swim where you’d actually want to carry a water bottle.

I’ve heard second-hand that Salt Lake is really disgusting. I think I might have to pass on that one. -Harold

Response:

I do believe that 3 foot swells in fresh water ( i assume it was fresh) are considerably more difficult to swim in than equil conditions in salt water. I have never had the experience of swimming in rough "choppy" fresh water so could be wrong but am glad I was not there.

I do almost all of my open water swimming in Lake Champlain (which was recently almost named a great lake). Usually, it is very smooth. It doesn’t take much wind to create 2 to 3 foot swells. It wouldn’t be that bad, but there isn’t, as someone else said, is that they do tend to be right on top of each other. The other, and possibly bigger problem, is that the waves don’t always come from the same direction. On some days, you’ll get to swim into 2 foot waves that aren’t much more than a body length apart PLUS you’ll be swamped from the sides. It’s hard work making any headway in those conditions. I’ve had some harrowing experiences _within_ the relative safety of a bay. I’ve swallowed water. I’ve found myself under a foot of crashing water when I thought I was on the surface. And forget looking for landmarks. I can’t imagine trying to swim 2.4 like that. TTFN, Ryan

Response:

i can understand pulling athletes out of the water,  but cutting the bike/ run in half?  i know it would suck to have to ride in the winds,  but they should at least attempt the full distances.  are there serious safety concerns?

I’ve seen this happen before.  The problem is, by the time you get everyone out of the water, do a head count, quell the general pandemonium, and have the RD, officials, etc., talk it over, and then address the participants, you’ve eaten up at least 3 hours of the race time, THEN you have to organize a restart.

Response:

I had a message from a friend racing in Provo who said three feet number was way low.  The other thing is that the swells were coming one right after and almost on top of one another, more like a washing machine than ocean swells.  It was definitely nothing like Alcatraz, but rather much worse. From a pro’s perspective, Petr Vabrousek has his RR up on xtri.com where he mentions surfing back in. clm in sf – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hadn’t thought about that! I was wondering the same thing about 3 foot swell being a big deal, but I guess they would be on a 2.4 mile freshwater swim. thanks for posting Ken. something, but are 3ft swells supposed to be a problem? Sounds just like Alcatraz last year.   — I do believe that 3 foot swells in fresh water ( i assume it was fresh) are considerably more difficult to swim in than equil conditions in salt water. Having had experience boating on some large bodies of fresh water made a believer out of me.   The differences in bouyancy become very apparent when wave action picks up.   I have never had the experience of swimming in rough "choppy" fresh water so could be wrong but am glad I was not there.

– cathy morgan san francisco, ca

Response:

Utah lake is a very shallow lake. When the wind blows it create waves very close together. It is much different than an ocean swell. Also most boats on the lake are very small and are made for calm recreational use.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I had a message from a friend racing in Provo who said three feet number was way low.  The other thing is that the swells were coming one right after and almost on top of one another, more like a washing machine than ocean swells.  It was definitely nothing like Alcatraz, but rather much worse. From a pro’s perspective, Petr Vabrousek has his RR up on xtri.com where he mentions surfing back in. clm in sf Hadn’t thought about that! I was wondering the same thing about 3 foot swell being a big deal, but I guess they would be on a 2.4 mile freshwater swim. thanks for posting Ken. boats is something, but are 3ft swells supposed to be a problem? Sounds just like Alcatraz last year.   — I do believe that 3 foot swells in fresh water ( i assume it was fresh) are considerably more difficult to swim in than equil conditions in salt water. Having had experience boating on some large bodies of fresh water made a believer out of me.   The differences in bouyancy become very apparent when wave action picks up.   I have never had the experience of swimming in rough "choppy" fresh water so could be wrong but am glad I was not there. — cathy morgan san francisco, ca

Response:

Gave some thought to doing that race.   Sure glad I did not get involved. It would have been a real downer to have traveled that far to have it turn out as it has.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is this type of weather there an anomaly?  Wondering how detailed the planning was for this type of occurrence…and yeah, I can imagine a lot of bummed potential Iron-folks…yikes! Mike C If you haven’t seen on ironmanlive.com, IM Utah has been changed to a duathlon this morning. Apparently the winds kicked up to 25-30 mph this morning and Utah Lake became Utah ocean with swells up to 3 feet. Swimmers were carried off course, for those who even attempted to swim it. Lifeguard boats were even being capsized. The swim was called off and boats brought in all the remaining swimmers. Apparently some pro’s did make the entire swim. An athletes meeting was held and it was decided the race would be changed to a duathlon with a bike of 60-65 miles and a run of 13.1 miles. Beginning at 10 a.m. the pro waves would start off in 15 sec intervals (women going first) and then the age groupers would go off in 3 sec intervals. It was expected to take about 90 mins to get everyone going. check out www.ironmanlive.com and click on the utah banner for more updates. There have got to be some bummed athletes out there today, that’s for sure.

Response:

i can understand pulling athletes out of the water,  but cutting the bike/ run in half?  i know it would suck to have to ride in the winds,  but they should at least attempt the full distances.  are there serious safety concerns? aren’t the winds in kona as bad as these?  from what the weather station says there is no rain.  i can imagine a lot if disappointed athletes.   todd sandiego ps 65 and overcast here,  too bad they had to move to utah:P

Response:

If you haven’t seen on ironmanlive.com, IM Utah has been changed to a duathlon this morning.

If someone is trying for a spot in the Hawaii IM, are they out of luck if something like this happens? I’m new to this, so I’m not clear on how one qualifies for the big IM. Rob

Response:

i can understand pulling athletes out of the water,  but cutting the bike/ run in half?  i know it would suck to have to ride in the winds,  but they should at least attempt the full distances.  are there serious safety concerns? aren’t the winds in kona as bad as these?  from what the weather station says there is no rain.  i can imagine a lot if disappointed athletes.

I wonder if it has something to do with time constraints? RDM said in his post the race would be re-started at 10 AM and it was expected to take 90 min to get everyone going.  If that holds true, it would seem that doing the full distance would leave an awful lot of people finishing in the dark. I’m watching from a distance like all of you – so that’s just a guess for whatever it’s worth…  (about $.02)

Response:

If someone is trying for a spot in the Hawaii IM, are they out of luck if something like this happens?

according to ironmanlive,  all spots will be awarded to top finalist. todd sandiego ps- i still think they should have stayed in so cal:P

Response:

There must be higher powers at work trying to limit the number of IM races in the US.  I was at Pineman in Ohio in 1999 wherein fog made the swim impossible.  Fortunately no one was hurt at that race.  Tthe course was shortened to a 56 mile bike and full marathon due to time constraints which obviously disappointed many participants who’d trained for the full IM distance. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i can understand pulling athletes out of the water,  but cutting the bike/ run in half?  i know it would suck to have to ride in the winds,  but they should at least attempt the full distances.  are there serious safety concerns? aren’t the winds in kona as bad as these?  from what the weather station says there is no rain.  i can imagine a lot if disappointed athletes. I wonder if it has something to do with time constraints? RDM said in his post the race would be re-started at 10 AM and it was expected to take 90 min to get everyone going.  If that holds true, it would seem that doing the full distance would leave an awful lot of people finishing in the dark. I’m watching from a distance like all of you – so that’s just a guess for whatever it’s worth…  (about $.02)

Response:

Latest news is that one athlete from Redondo Beach, a  53 year old male, has died during the swim portion of the race this a.m. It’s not been determined if it was from drowning or heart attack or what. Tony DeBoom has won on the men’s side and Jenny Tobin on the women’s. All qualifying slots will still be allocated as will the prize money for the pro’s. It’s bee a very sad, tough and emotional day for alot of folks. My guess is that this type of wind, at least at this extreme, was not common. I think that WTC and Ironman did their best to change the race due to the cirumstances. It is very, very unfortunate that someone died because of this. Some other facts: Almost 1980 competitors had registered, but only 1536 actually started the race. Out of those 1536, only 1435 elected to continue on with the "altered" duathlon course. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If someone is trying for a spot in the Hawaii IM, are they out of luck if something like this happens? according to ironmanlive,  all spots will be awarded to top finalist. todd sandiego ps- i still think they should have stayed in so cal:P

Response:

I believe I know the out come but other than this race,  all Ironman Hawaii contestants have to complete at least a Half IM race.    65 mile bike and 13.1 mile run, while it might take the same time as a Half it is still not a Half IM without a competitive swim leg.    New rules do to unfortunate race circumstances. More important,  My condolences to the family of  John H. Boland.  What a terrible tragedy.   A man sets out to have the time of his life then looses his life.  These are certainly not the memories he nor any of  us wanted to see left behind.   R.I. P. John H. Boland, you must now be in a better place. This entire race has had a dreadful first time experience.   It will take some hard work and dedication of the organizers to put it back together. Good luck to them on the recovery effort.   They all worked hard getting it this far so I am certain they will persevere and return next year by setting new standards for all others to match.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you haven’t seen on ironmanlive.com, IM Utah has been changed to a duathlon this morning. Apparently the winds kicked up to 25-30 mph this morning and Utah Lake became Utah ocean with swells up to 3 feet. Swimmers were carried off course, for those who even attempted to swim it. Lifeguard boats were even being capsized. The swim was called off and boats brought in all the remaining swimmers. Apparently some pro’s did make the entire swim. An athletes meeting was held and it was decided the race would be changed to a duathlon with a bike of 60-65 miles and a run of 13.1 miles. Beginning at 10 a.m. the pro waves would start off in 15 sec intervals (women going first) and then the age groupers would go off in 3 sec intervals. It was expected to take about 90 mins to get everyone going. check out www.ironmanlive.com and click on the utah banner for more updates. There have got to be some bummed athletes out there today, that’s for sure.

Response:

Apparently the winds kicked up to 25-30 mph this morning and Utah Lake became Utah ocean with swells up to 3 feet. Swimmers were carried off course, for those who even attempted to swim it. Lifeguard boats were even being capsized. The swim was called off and boats brought in all

capsizing boats is something, but are 3ft swells supposed to be a problem? Sounds just like Alcatraz last year.  Virtually everyone made it to shore, though we rememeber Doug Flutie getting a ride.   Maybe I can see some video of this.   — Jason O’Rourke www.jor.com

Response:

I was planning on IM Utah 2003 being my first IM (I’ll be choosing another race now).  Having traveled to SLC and Provo many times on business, I know the weather can be very freaky.  Winter/Spring can bring heavy rain (in sheets) out of the blue.  The summer months are hot, but I’ve never heard of wind like this. It sounds like they did the best they could under harrowing circumstances.  I have a couple of friends who raced and will post a RR next week. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If someone is trying for a spot in the Hawaii IM, are they out of luck if something like this happens? according to ironmanlive,  all spots will be awarded to top finalist. todd sandiego ps- i still think they should have stayed in so cal:P

Response:

something, but are 3ft swells supposed to be a problem? Sounds just like Alcatraz last year.   —

I do believe that 3 foot swells in fresh water ( i assume it was fresh) are considerably more difficult to swim in than equil conditions in salt water. Having had experience boating on some large bodies of fresh water made a believer out of me.   The differences in bouyancy become very apparent when wave action picks up.   I have never had the experience of swimming in rough "choppy" fresh water so could be wrong but am glad I was not there.

Response:

Hadn’t thought about that! I was wondering the same thing about 3 foot swell being a big deal, but I guess they would be on a 2.4 mile freshwater swim. thanks for posting Ken. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – something, but are 3ft swells supposed to be a problem? Sounds just like Alcatraz last year.   — I do believe that 3 foot swells in fresh water ( i assume it was fresh) are considerably more difficult to swim in than equil conditions in salt water. Having had experience boating on some large bodies of fresh water made a believer out of me.   The differences in bouyancy become very apparent when wave action picks up.   I have never had the experience of swimming in rough "choppy" fresh water so could be wrong but am glad I was not there.

Response:

If you haven’t seen on ironmanlive.com, IM Utah has been changed to a duathlon this morning. Apparently the winds kicked up to 25-30 mph this morning and Utah Lake became Utah ocean with swells up to 3 feet. Swimmers were carried off course, for those who even attempted to swim it. Lifeguard boats were even being capsized. The swim was called off and boats brought in all the remaining swimmers. Apparently some pro’s did make the entire swim. An athletes meeting was held and it was decided the race would be changed to a duathlon with a bike of 60-65 miles and a run of 13.1 miles. Beginning at 10 a.m. the pro waves would start off in 15 sec intervals (women going first) and then the age groupers would go off in 3 sec intervals. It was expected to take about 90 mins to get everyone going. check out www.ironmanlive.com and click on the utah banner for more updates. There have got to be some bummed athletes out there today, that’s for sure.

Response:

Is this type of weather there an anomaly?  Wondering how detailed the planning was for this type of occurrence…and yeah, I can imagine a lot of bummed potential Iron-folks…yikes! Mike C – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you haven’t seen on ironmanlive.com, IM Utah has been changed to a duathlon this morning. Apparently the winds kicked up to 25-30 mph this morning and Utah Lake became Utah ocean with swells up to 3 feet. Swimmers were carried off course, for those who even attempted to swim it. Lifeguard boats were even being capsized. The swim was called off and boats brought in all the remaining swimmers. Apparently some pro’s did make the entire swim. An athletes meeting was held and it was decided the race would be changed to a duathlon with a bike of 60-65 miles and a run of 13.1 miles. Beginning at 10 a.m. the pro waves would start off in 15 sec intervals (women going first) and then the age groupers would go off in 3 sec intervals. It was expected to take about 90 mins to get everyone going. check out www.ironmanlive.com and click on the utah banner for more updates. There have got to be some bummed athletes out there today, that’s for sure.

Response:

Question:

Hi, I’m wondering if someone can direct me to a website that lists when upcoming running or triathlon events are being televised. Many thanks, Charlotte

Response:

Try www.BIKESonTV.com.  Usually lists tri.s as well as bike races and other bike stuff.

Response:

Question:

Thanks for the clarification Conal.  I didn’t actually get a new strap, but rather sent mine in to be re-conditioned, as you mentioned. Martin. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I originally bought a Polar Pacer, the older model with fewer features than the current model.  I used it and a Timex 100 Lap Ironman Triathlon watch as well.  It worked great for several years until the strap batteries died. I then replaced it with the bottom of the line CardioSport model, which was just as cheap as ordering a new strap. Wait a minute. You don’t have to order a new Polar strap (i.e., heart rate transmitter) when the batteries die. Send it in to Polar and for $12 they’ll: 1) replace the dead batter, 2) check that the transmitter and the receiver (the watch) work properly, and 3) ship it back to you. Oh, Polar recommends that when the battery for one of the devices dies, you send in BOTH units for a routine check-up. So how do I know all this? Well, I sent in my Polar units when the watch battery died. I didn’t want someone (a generic watchmaker) replace the battery in case s/he damages the unit (which cost me $200 when I bought it!). $12 is not a lot of money to spend. And besides, my HRM of close to 3 years now only needed the watch battery changed once. Everything still works just fine. Cheers, Conal Graduate Student 337 Social Sciences 1 Dept. of Anthropology University of California-Santa Cruz

Response:

    I have not tried it, but I would suggest taking a look at the Timex. I have a Polar, and while it does as advertised, it must have been programmed by the guys in Dilbert’s mud country of Ebonia.  The user interface stinks.  Other Timex products I have had very good user interfaces, I hope this one also does.  It will be the first one I look at when I am again in the market. — Dia ’s Muire duit Joe M

Response:

I originally bought a Polar Pacer, the older model with fewer features than the current model.  I used it and a Timex 100 Lap Ironman Triathlon watch as well.  It worked great for several years until the strap batteries died.  I then replaced it with the bottom of the line CardioSport model, which was just as cheap as ordering a new strap.  I continued to use the Pacer watch with the CardioSport strap.  It was too bad the CardioSport strap didn’t outlast the replaceable battery.  Since the transmitter died,  I ended up getting another Polar strap. Since I always feel kind of goofy wearing the two wrist units, I decided to try a  Timex Ironman Triathlon 50 Lap Fitness Monitor. To start, although the strap was a much nicer pliable non-slip rubber than the first generation Polar strap I was using, I found the elastic strap when adjusted to it’s maximum did not fit comfortably around my chest (I’m a bigger fellow, 6′, 210#, and I wear the straps fairly loose).  I had to unwind the loops in the strap and feed it backwards through the strap to get the length I needed.  Then I found the Velcro loopback to fasten the strap on, to be a bit of a nuisance compared to the Polar strap as well. Next I found the actual stopwatch/timer features of the Timex Fitness Monitor severely limited compared to the older Timex unit I usually used, for several reasons.  You, cannot simultaneously display elapsed time in the current lap and total elapsed time for the event.  You cannot toggle between the two when the stop watch is in use.  As near as I can figure, you must choose from a set-up menu to show either elapsed time in the current lap OR for the event as a whole before you start the stop watch.  Once you have selected, you are stuck with your choice until the stop watch has been stopped and reset to zero, at which time you can make the choice again. This seems to be true even when you are not using the heart rate monitor, and it only has a single countdown timer.  Not to mention the fact I found the display very difficult to read. And lastly (and this may have just been a bad unit),  the watch was constantly loosing contact with the strap, or reporting bogus heart rates? During my last run, I actually strapped my Polar unit on below the Timex unit, and it performed flawlessly, while the Timex unit continued to give erratic reading.  Needless to say, the Timex unit was returned, and I’m back to 2 watch bands! Summary:  My Polar has worked flawlessly for 6 or 7 years now, other than replacing the strap for battery wear.  The CardioSport unit didn’t last a year, and the TImex unit was junk from day one.  My next HRM will be another Polar.   Of course, YMMV!  ;-) Martin.

Response:

I’ve used a Cardiosport for several months. Older model, the 2000. I like it fine. An advantage over the Polar monitors is that  you can change the batteries without replacing the strap. (Or sending it in, or whatever Polar requires you to do.) — George Beinhorn "How to Run Your First 50-Miler" http://www.oceansofenergy.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m pretty new to HRM’s, hence a newbie question. I want something very basic.  The only functions I care about in addition to the hrm, is a timer that’s easy to use and displays along with the hrm, and a backlight.  It would be nice if the timer had the ability to count about 6 laps, but that’s not essential.  I’ve been sorely disappointed with the 2 Polars I tried (Pacer and I forget the other).  I ended up returning them because the timers seemed mickey mouse and was difficult to use. Thanks for any suggestions! glenn

Response:

Compared to the Timex Triathlon the Polar timer is "mickey mouse and difficult to use."  But once I’ve learned some of the quirks to it, it isn’t so bad. 1.  You have to store the last lap, you can’t just stop the timer. 2.  You can’t recall in the middle of saving. 3.  When you do use the recall it seems to take more button presses than it needs to, but I think that is just so it can display the over and under for the HR zone. There another thing I don’t like about the Polar and I don’t know if the other HRMs do it also, but the HRM skips 201.  It’ll count up just great, I mean 197 198 199 200 but then it jumps straight to 202 203. I’ve never seen it say 201 except in an average and it has always skipped right over it.  It makes me think it screws up at anything over 200. In other words, sorry but I’d keep looking and thanks for letting me give my 2

Question:

Just had a question for everyone.  Since piercing guns are a big no-no here, when I did an additional lobe pierce 8 weeks ago, I had it done the "acceptable" way. Where all my gunned ones healed in 4-6 weeks, this one is still oozing and producing crusties 8 weeks later.  Could this be a factor because the cbr in there turns more often than a gun stud would have or what?  Would it possibly be better for healing to replace it with a stud?

Well, my friend got her ear pierced with a needle and used a CBR and she also managed to get it infeceted. How? She had a nasty habit of playing with the ring with dirty fingers (she was a bank teller). In your case, I would ask how well you are cleaning your ear. CBRs are easier to clean than studs, but they are also easier to get dirty if you aren’t careful. Are you carefully cleaning after swimming? (<muahaha, I recognize you from rec.sport.triathlon, you’re on my turf now ) Keeping it clean in general and *never* touching the CBR with dirty hands? Crusties after 8 weeks does seem odd, but it is a bit early to give up. In my very non-professional opinion, I doubt a stud would help. You need to figure out what you are doing to your ear and change that. Wendy —          "Life is pain, Highness.  Anyone who says differently              is selling something." — The Princess Bride          

Question:

                  <snipped What had started out as an annoying headwind, soon became a terrifying crosswind.

I wrote a similar post earlier this spring after having the same experience with crosswinds.  I also ride a QR (TeQuilo) but have Spinergy wheels.  At the time, I just had my position changed at the QR road show and I think that contributed to my problems.  In addition to crosswinds, I was very uncomfortable on fast downhills.  I thought about getting an open-spoked wheel to help in the winds but couldn’t justify the expense. However, I found that as I put in more miles in my new position, I rediscovered my balance and haven’t had the problems.  If you haven’t ridden a lot of miles in the wind, perhaps you’ll find the same as your miles increase.  One thing I found that helped me regain my confidence on the aerobars was to ride with the hand on the side the wind was blowing from out on the drops.  This seemed to allow me to react to gusts more quickly as I developed the confidence I needed to move back fully on the aerobars. You might want to consider an open-spoked wheel of medium depth for windy days.  If you go that route, I believe you should also use it to race on windy days and not just train on it.  I’m a firm believer in "muscle memory" and wouldn’t want to experience the different handling characteristics of a deep rimmed wheel for the first time during a race.  I hate surprises and love the routine. My $.02 FWIW Gordon (Yakabo) Fesenger

Response:

crosswind.

Last month’s Triathlon Mag described aero forks on the new QR’s that are deeper in the fore/aft direction and place the ’side wind’ aero center of effort of the fork aft of the pivot to counter the deep-rim ’side wind’ aero center of effort forward of the pivot.  Of course a deeper Head wheel may be too much for even these new forks.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It was a beatiful day here in Central Arizona yesterday, and I planned to do an 86 mile ride followed by a 10 mile run.  (I am determined to make my habitual undertraining a thing of the past.)   Anyway… the ride I was going to do starts out with a nice five mile climb, followed by several more miles of up/downhills through 20 mph switchbacks carved into the side of a mountain.  What had started out as an annoying headwind, soon became a terrifying crosswind.  Because of the landscape, I never knew which way the wind was going to be blowing.  There were gusts above 35 mph.  At one point as I was leaning into one of the many sharp turns, my bike moved 2 feet laterally.  This was turning out to be one of the most terrifying rides I have ever been on.  I ended up shortening the ride, and changing the route in the hopes of reducing the exposure to the wind. My question is this…  What do you do to battle a crosswind.  I am riding a QR TeQuilo with HED Jets.   Thanks in advance, John Welch

I don’t know if this is possible, but you might do well to snag yourself a pair of basic spoked wheels for training, and save the Jets for racing, particularly on long rides such as the one you just described.  Despite the way it often feels when you’re out on the bike, I’m of the opinion there’s no such thing as a true dead on headwind…the wind always has at least 2 directional elements coming at you (which is to say, you’re always subject to a crosswind of sorts, it’s merely a matter of power ratio of the two vectors).  If the emphasis is more sidewind  than headwind, then Jets (and other deep V wheels like them) will really catch a helluva lot of wind, causing your bike to become extremely squirrely (sp?) such as you described, due in part to the large surface area your presenting to the sidewind element. In some cases, this becomes a help, other’s a hindrance. Normal spoke wheels seem to lessen this effect considerably.   At any rate, I experienced this very same effect when I did a training ride with my Hed CX deeps, and thereafter, I train with my Velocity’s and race with the Heds.   My usual $0.02 Chaz

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It was a beatiful day here in Central Arizona yesterday, and I planned to do an 86 mile ride followed by a 10 mile run.  (I am determined to make my habitual undertraining a thing of the past.)   Anyway… the ride I was going to do starts out with a nice five mile climb, followed by several more miles of up/downhills through 20 mph switchbacks carved into the side of a mountain.  What had started out as an annoying headwind, soon became a terrifying crosswind.  Because of the landscape, I never knew which way the wind was going to be blowing.  There were gusts above 35 mph.  At one point as I was leaning into one of the many sharp turns, my bike moved 2 feet laterally.  This was turning out to be one of the most terrifying rides I have ever been on.  I ended up shortening the ride, and changing the route in the hopes of reducing the exposure to the wind. My question is this…  What do you do to battle a crosswind.  I am riding a QR TeQuilo with HED Jets.   Thanks in advance, John Welch

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Question:

-snip On the way back I did the NC Triathlon in Raleigh.  Nice local race. Had my best race in a while (possibly two years) but unfortunately not a USAT sanctioned event so won’t count in rankings!

HOLY COW!!!  I missed an opportunity to meet the Hugster!!!  I, too, was at the race, though as a volunteer.  I had done Fairmount 1/2IM the week before and needed a rest, so I thought that I would help with the race instead.  I definitely had as much fun cheering my friends on as I do racing. You probably saw me, though I don’t expect you to remember.  I was the only guy doing the body marking before the race, and I was the transition area volunteer running from falling rack to falling rack, trying to keep the racers racing and their bikes off the pavement.  Glad to hear you enjoyed the race. Cameron

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Whew – it’s good to be back.  I just got back from my month long adventure of going to the Olympics.  Was going thru withdrawal! Was fortunate enough to meet and/or talk to several RSTers along the way. Started my trip with the Sunset Tri in Bridgeton NJ where I met Rich Stein (and also hung out with Allyn Cutts & Eddy O’Kinsky, local race directors that I already knew).  Pleased with my race. The next day I did the Hawk Sport Festival where I met a bunch-o-RSTers!  Pretty tough course (definitely not the "FLAT" run that was advertised – 1st 5k was primarily downhill, 2nd half was back up – took 4.5 mins more on way back – YIKES!)  Met John Walker (reminded me of Scott Tinley – must be the blond hair and mustache – but he was pretty quick too!), Roxanne Scott (friendly and came all the way from California just to meet us east-coast RSTers, HA), Steve Irish (just as Ruth says – modest, attractive, really shouldn’t have a problem finding a date except he seems rather shy!), and Tucker Newberry (seemed nice, didn’t get to talk to him that much).  That was a lot of fun and made the pit stop worthwhile since I really can’t say I gave the race much effort – spent too much time enjoying the view on the bike course! Headed down the Blue Ridge Parkway – beautiful, much better than taking a regular highway like I-85 or I-95 even if it took a few more hours. Made it to Atlanta on Tuesday in time to see swimming finals with RSTer Michelle Nezi – who has just moved from Atlanta back to Philly!  It was awesome! Saw mountain biking with RSTer Mark Jenkins – we were running all over the place!  Both took power naps between the men’s and women’s races despite the heat and 40,000 person crowd! (Just pretended I was laying out at the Jersey Shore!)  It too was awesome! Talked to some others (Steve Sciance & Jay Train) but missed them out there on the women’s marathon course – we were supposed to all hook up but it’s hard to find people you’ve never met with the crowds that were down there!  (Also didn’t help that Steve & Mark didn’t set their watches to HST – Hug Standard Time – 15 to 30 mins after EST!) Also saw Track Cycling – met a triathlete from Virginia who had an extra ticket to some kind of priority seating. I suggested we sit together (before I even knew he had great seats). So I didn’t have to sit in the nose bleed stand section (sold my ticket for $70 – only asked for face value of $37 but people kept outbidding each other!) I bought his extra one that was in a chair along the perimeter of the track!  INCREDIBLE – didn’t even mind the 3.5 hour rain delay as he was very entertaining. And of course I went to the freebies – the men & women’s marathons, men’s cycling road race and men & women’s cycling time trials. Had some great training rides and even met another RSTer kind of by mistake – I think his name was Mark Linneberg (?) – he had e-mailed me a list of rides and I showed up on one.  I heard him talking about NJ and asked him if he was from there … blah blah blah .. til we found out that we had been in contact by e-mail!  Also, I highly recommend the DYNAMO swim workouts – excellent coach on Mon, Wed & Fri (Andy) – long distance workouts for $4 (sprint work outs on Tues & Thurs).  One downfall is that it is held very early –  at 5:45am (translate: 6am HST = no warm-up) so I missed several times when I planned to go. One morning I was getting ready to go to bed when my alarm went off at 5:10 am to get up to swim – sleeping took priority as I went to bed at 5:30 am!  Betty Mills who won OC trains there – she kicks butt!! Stayed in Atlanta til the Friday after the Olympics so I could spend some time with my best friend who lives down there.  Didn’t get to see her too much during the games – very hectic schedules! On the way back I did the NC Triathlon in Raleigh.  Nice local race. Had my best race in a while (possibly two years) but unfortunately not a USAT sanctioned event so won’t count in rankings! Well this is too long already – I could just go on and on.  It was great meeting all those RSTers in person but I am happy to be back and able to get on the computer!     -hug

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Question:

I have compared the standard deviations for swim, bike and run times for sprint races.  On this basis, the swim is worth about half as much as the bike and run.

Could you explain this in more detail?  (I’m not a statistician, but I know what a standard deviation is.  You need to take standard deviation into account, but the mean is the more important figure, isn’t it?)  Seems to me that I run 4 times as far in a given time as I can swim in that time.  Why is the swim worth half, rather than one-quarter as much as the run?  And the bike is obviously worth more. Or am I missing something? Indoor tri’s could be great events, but the way they’re run now, they’re just a chance for the bikers to flex their muscles.  (Spoken like a triathlete whose worst leg is the bike, eh?)   – marty — Marty Billingsley

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I have compared the standard deviations for swim, bike and run times for sprint races.  On this basis, the swim is worth about half as much as the bike and run. Our company fitness center sponsers an indoor event, with 20 minutes for each leg.  They double the swim distance before adding the bike and run distances.  After appropriate translations, I determined that this scoring system works about the same way. — Curt Austin          http://www.iac.net/~curta/ Cincinnati, Ohio

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : I was thinking about a short tri of 15 minutes per event with 5 minutes : in between events. Sounds fine to me.  For some reason, all 5 of the ones I know about that were held in Chicago this year were structured as follows: 10 min swim pool 5-10 min transition  (10 min is time to go to a locker, dry & change) 20 min bike (stationary) 5 min transition 15 min run (4 were track, 1 was treadmill) I don’t know why this distribution was chosen.  Your idea of 15-15-15 would still be pretty close to it.

I’ve tried to suggest to the people who run these events — for a couple of years now — that they alter the format.  If you can believe it, the way they score these tri’s are to add up the total distance.  What a crock!!  Not only is the swim ‘way shorter than the bike and run (and the run shorter than the bike), but with the total distances added up, a strong biker could totally skip the swim and still win the event.  And this is a fair competition? Nonsense!! For example, let’s say in a 10-minute swim, person A swims 200m further than person B.  That’s a *lot*, a huge difference in swimming ability.  Now, person B is a slightly better biker than person A and bikes 300m further in 20 minutes.  That’s pretty easy to do!  Assume they’re equal runners.  Person B will win the event, by dint of being a little bit better biker, but a *much* worse swimmer.  That’s unreasonable: he’s obviously not the better triathlete! The Downtown Sports Club in Chicago, who put on the first indoor triathlons in the city (as far as I know), starting about 1986 or 87, used to score them in an interesting way.  First of all, the events were 20 minutes each: no lopsided event here!  If you were the fastest swimmer you got 100 points, 2nd fastest got 98 points, etc.  Same with biking and running.  At the end, the person with the most points won.  One advantage of this was that the event could be held over a period of a week, with people coming in at their convenience to run the race (there wasn’t enough room to hold the event all at once).  It worked out pretty well, and the results seem fair.  (Unlike the results of the indoor tri series that I’ve seen over the past couple of years.) Another way to score these indoor events, where you compete for a certain length of time rather than a distance, would be to calculate a reasonable "fudge factor".  I don’t know that much about biking, but I constantly compare my running and swimming times.  Running is aproximately 4 times faster than swimming (I’ll do repeat 100s (meters) in the pool in 1:25, and interval 400s on the track in 1:25 or thereabouts).  You could take the results of many people’s efforts in a triathlon and calculate a reasonable average fudge factor for both the swim and the run so that the distances are comparable to the bike distance.  Then you’d have a *much* fairer event. I know a few people who boycotted this winter’s indoor triathlon series in Chicago because of the emphasis on biking.  I hope that the folks responsible for putting it on will read this and think about changing the format. Anybody else have suggestions for a fair way of scoring an indoor tri?   – marty — Marty Billingsley

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: I was thinking about a short tri of 15 minutes per event with 5 minutes : in between events. Sounds fine to me.  For some reason, all 5 of the ones I know about that were held in Chicago this year were structured as follows: 10 min swim pool 5-10 min transition  (10 min is time to go to a locker, dry & change) 20 min bike (stationary) 5 min transition 15 min run (4 were track, 1 was treadmill) I don’t know why this distribution was chosen.  Your idea of 15-15-15 would still be pretty close to it.

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: How do you organize an indoor bike race that is fair for everyone? : Do you organize the bike using stationary trainers? : Do you provide rollers or track stands and let people bring their own : bikes?  And if so, how do you track mileage? The best setup I’ve seen is about 8 Windracers set up in series, all hooked up to a central monitor that had little color coded cyclists along with bar graphs of avg. speed, distance, etc. Since the windracers are computerized and adjusted for weight, etc. as part of the program, it was extremely accurate and far for everyone. It only took a second as you got to the bike in the 5 min. transition to punch in your weight and age, etc., and everyone was started by the computer at once. It all worked pretty well.         I’m not sure how they got all the stuff; I think the university already owned them (University of Toronto), and the software in the windracer did the rest. You might want to talk to the people at Windracer, maybe they’ll let you use some for free promo.         Good Luck!         B @ Queen’s University             Kingston, Ontario

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Our club wants to organize some events in conjunction with the athletic facility here at the Albert Einstein College of Medicine. Members were talking about an intramural swim meet.  This is no problem to organize but we were also interested in organizing an indoor triathlon.  None of us have ever done one before so i have a few questions. I was thinking about a short tri of 15 minutes per event with 5 minutes in between events.  I figure a swimmer can cover 1200 yds (48 lengths of a 25yd pool).  A cyclist at 20 mph can cover 5 miles and a runner at about 6.5 to 7 min miles can cover 2 to 2.5 miles.  On our depressingly small indoor track that comes out to 40 to 50 laps.  So the plan was to use the following formula: swim lengths (~ 48) + bike miles X 10 (~ 50) + laps run (~50)= total score. Does this sound reasonable?   How do you organize an indoor bike race that is fair for everyone? Do you organize the bike using stationary trainers? Do you provide rollers or track stands and let people bring their own bikes?  And if so, how do you track mileage? Any input at all would be greatly appreciated.  Now I really regret not doing the multitude of indoor triathlons that were always advertised around the Chicago area when I lived there.  :( Thanks. — John H. Kwon Albert Einstein College of Medicine

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I was thinking about a short tri of 15 minutes per event with 5 minutes in between events.  I figure a swimmer can cover 1200 yds (48 lengths of a 25yd pool).  A cyclist at 20 mph can cover 5 miles and a runner at about 6.5 to 7 min miles can cover 2 to 2.5 miles.  On our depressingly small indoor track that comes out to 40 to 50 laps.  So the plan was to use the following formula: swim lengths (~ 48) + bike miles X 10 (~ 50) + laps run (~50)= total score. Does this sound reasonable?   How do you organize an indoor bike race that is fair for everyone?

No race can be fair for everyone unless everyone finishes with the same time/place/distance for the same effort.  I would try your format with a few triathletes of varying skill and check the results. Do you organize the bike using stationary trainers? Do you provide rollers or track stands and let people bring their own bikes?  And if so, how do you track mileage?

If you use a stationary trainer, you need some way to calibrate the resistance to make it equal.  Otherwise, some people may have a very low resistance and get a big advantage against the people who set their resistance high. Any input at all would be greatly appreciated.  Now I really regret not doing the multitude of indoor triathlons that were always advertised around the Chicago area when I lived there.  :(

The series I did used the following format: Swim 10 minutes, volunteer counts lengths, swimmer gets credit for next full length if past halfway mark at 10 minutes.  Convert lengths to mileage. Bike 20 minutes on stationary exercise bike.  Use distance from odometer. Over the past three year, three types of indoor bikes were used.  The first year the top people averaged ~45MPH, so the distance was divided in half. The bike was usually the main factor in the final results.  You need to be careful on choosing an indoor bike because some models cannot be calibrated equally. Run 15 minutes on indoor track (sizes from 8 to 13.5 laps per mile), runner gets credit for full lap if past halfway mark at 15 minutes.  Covert laps to miles. Overall place was determined by total distance traveled. Be prepared to sweat! Todd Jensen                                   o AT&T Bell Labs              ___^o_    __o    <| Naperville, IL                      _ <_    _

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Question:

what was a typical training schedule for an athlete.

It depends on what you’re training for.  For an Ironman length race (I have done 5 in the last 6 years), a typical week for me is: Mon: Bike 5 mi. easy to work (14-16 MPH), lift weights, lower body, 45 min. Tue: Bike 5 easy, swim 1000 yards. Wed: Bike 5 easy, lift, upper body, 45 min. Thu: Bike 5 easy, run 3-6 miles fartlek. Fri: Bike 5 easy (rest day). Sat: Bike 50 hard (group ride). Sun: Race (run or triathlon). Weekly average: swim 1500 yd, bike 85 mi, run 15 mi. I also try to get in 1 or 2 centuries and a marathon or ultra during the 3 months before an Ironman.  Last year I did a 70 mile trail run (dropping out 21 hours into a 100 mile race) 2 weeks before the Great Floridian. #include "disclaimer.h"                |____|

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As little as possible. Enjoy the sport without becoming a slave to it.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Mahoney) writes: what was a typical training schedule for an athlete. It depends on what you’re training for.  For an Ironman length race (I have done 5 in the last 6 years), a typical week for me is: Mon: Bike 5 mi. easy to work (14-16 MPH), lift weights, lower body, 45 min. Tue: Bike 5 easy, swim 1000 yards. Wed: Bike 5 easy, lift, upper body, 45 min. Thu: Bike 5 easy, run 3-6 miles fartlek. Fri: Bike 5 easy (rest day). Sat: Bike 50 hard (group ride). Sun: Race (run or triathlon). Weekly average: swim 1500 yd, bike 85 mi, run 15 mi. I also try to get in 1 or 2 centuries and a marathon or ultra during the 3 months before an Ironman.  Last year I did a 70 mile trail run (dropping out 21 hours into a 100 mile race) 2 weeks before the Great Floridian. #include "disclaimer.h"                |____|

Training time, intensity, distance and recovery is the hardest formula to conceive and balance between three sports.  You might consider a solftware solution that will do it for you. UltraCoach uses artificial intelligence technology to give you interactive workouts in swim, bike and run based on you goals.  will taper for a race; incorporates all aspects of HRM data if you use one. 800-400-1390 for free copy Ken Burres MD UltraCoach

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(Matt Mahoney) writes: Weekly average: swim 1500 yd, bike 85 mi, run 15 mi.

If someone can do an ironman on this there may be hope for me after all! Mike (3500yd swim,75mi bike,13mi run) Randow —

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Apparently this guy *can* do an Ironman on that little amount of weekly mileage–but he must have a lifetime of base that he’s working from.  I’ve done 8 Ironman tris, and I would *not* recommend that (small) volume of training for anyone who wanted a realistic chance of doing at all well–over even finishing.  On the other hand, I know from my own experience that if you have a decent base, you *can* do fine on less total volume than one might think *if* you concentrate the run & bike mileage into good-sized chunks rather than dribble it out in lots of shorter work-outs. Greg Markus Ann Arbor

Response:

UltraCoach uses artificial intelligence technology to give you interactive workouts in swim, bike and run based on you goals.  will taper for a race; incorporates all aspects of HRM data if you use one. 800-400-1390 for free copy Ken Burres MD UltraCoach

Three hunks of junk in a row stuffing my mailbox.  Burres goes on my kill file.   Ruth Kazez

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – what was a typical training schedule for an athlete. It depends on what you’re training for.  For an Ironman length race (I have done 5 in the last 6 years), a typical week for me is: Mon: Bike 5 mi. easy to work (14-16 MPH), lift weights, lower body, 45 min. Tue: Bike 5 easy, swim 1000 yards. Wed: Bike 5 easy, lift, upper body, 45 min. Thu: Bike 5 easy, run 3-6 miles fartlek. Fri: Bike 5 easy (rest day). Sat: Bike 50 hard (group ride). Sun: Race (run or triathlon). Weekly average: swim 1500 yd, bike 85 mi, run 15 mi. I also try to get in 1 or 2 centuries and a marathon or ultra during the 3 months before an Ironman.  Last year I did a 70 mile trail run (dropping out 21 hours into a 100 mile race) 2 weeks before the Great Floridian. #include "disclaimer.h"                |____|

It seems to me that this is a rather small amount of training for an ironman.   If this is all of the training that I did, I’d be lucky to even finish an ironman.  I am well aware that more is not necessarily better, but I also feel that the amount of training one does should be proportional to the distance one races.  I’m not being judgemental, just curious.  Anyone else have an opinion?

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hey out there, This is my second real season competing in triathlons and I was wondering what was a typical training schedule for an athlete.  I’m in the 20-24 age group for a while longer.  Plus, I would just like to know what other people do for workouts, especially track workouts!  Thanks Sun:  R 9.5-11.5, C 20mn Mon:  S3500 yds, C 20mn Tues: lift, R 6.5-7.5 (track w/o), C 45mn Wed:  S3500 yds, R 4 Thurs:  lift, C 2 hrs (5-10 1 mile hill repeats) Fri:  S3500 yds, R 4 Sat:  C 2.5 hrs, R 1 Everyday:  lots of wholesome ice cream, cookies, and diet coke! Thanks for any info! Michael Holm

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hey out there, This is my second real season competing in triathlons and I was wondering what was a typical training schedule for an athlete.  I’m in the 20-24 age group for a while longer.  Plus, I would just like to know what other people do for workouts, especially track workouts!  Thanks Sun:  R 9.5-11.5, C 20mn Mon:  S3500 yds, C 20mn Tues: lift, R 6.5-7.5 (track w/o), C 45mn Wed:  S3500 yds, R 4 Thurs:  lift, C 2 hrs (5-10 1 mile hill repeats) Fri:  S3500 yds, R 4 Sat:  C 2.5 hrs, R 1

First of all, I think it’s a mistake not to take at least one day off. Secondly,  what kind of distances are you going to compete in?  If you are doing Olympic distance or less, I think you could cut back significantly. If you do quality swim training, you can get away with 2000-3000 yd /per workout.  This should take about 45 min.  I also think you only need to run 4x /week with one of these runs being a BRICK session and the other being track work.  Finally for O.D. or less, I’ve found that one 1.5 hr – 2 hr bike session per week is more than sufficient. OBTW, when I was your age I had a similar training schedule.  I found as I cut back that my times have improved every year (for 8 years now).  My theory is when you train too hard, you make all your workouts tend toward moderate intensity (i.e. too hard on the easy days & too slow on the high intensity days).  As a result, you get minimal gains for you efforts. Here’s my current schedule (for O.D. or less)… Mon:  S 3000 yds, Moderate Run 8+ miles Tues: Moderate Bike 30 miles Wed:  S 3000 yds, Track Intervals (6 miles with 3.5 – 4 miles being hard) Thurs: Bike (15-20mi)-Run (3-5mi) TT Fri:  S 3000 yds, Easy 6 mi Run Sat:  40+ mi bike or 10+ mi run Sun:  REST Note:  in previous years, I was swimming 4-5x / week.  I am planning to add an easy Tues morning run. Pat    W.Patrick Brug, Ph.D.  _-           -_    Los Alamos National Lab -__       __-                                       /    cis:      72410,3372        /  

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Question:

<<<Two weeks ago I got the "PR*Bar Newsletter" in the mail. Lead story? "We are proud to have Dr. Philip Maffetone on board as our Medical Director. Dr. Maffetone is a sports physician…" [Incidentally, I wasn't aware that it was proper to call a chiropractor a "physician"].

Now I may be wrong but I thought that a qualification wether it be a degree, diploma or doctorate was merely a way of determining wether a person knew what they were talking about?  ( they had done the study). So who cares wether it’s doctor, Phsysician, tinker, taylor?  DOES HE KNOW WHAT HE IS TALKING ABOUT? I for one have enough confidence in my judgement (and for that matter not enough confidence in the variances of world qualifications standards) to make that judgement myself.  Who cares what letters follow!!!! GREG.J.ABBISS :: Waitakere, Auckland, New Zealand ATTMAIL:             internet!iconz.co.nz!abbiss

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<snipped legal treatise…   I don’t have all 50 states’ statutes in front of me, but I believe that   this law is standard. This, of course, is not really relevant to   triathlons, except that all of us are on mailing lists and receive a   considerable amount of advertising. These laws are in place to protect   consumers and to assist them in making choices.  OK, Mark, here is where I flick my BIC.

At the risk of appearing to defend both Dr. Mark J. and the medical profession, I’d like to enter this fray once again.   After all,  it was my post that questioned whether Dr. Maffetone could in fact call himself a "physician".  The fact of the matter is that he legally CANNOT call himself a "physician" in Canada or in Texas (1 state down… 49 to go <smile).  But it as Dr. Jenkins suggests, it goes deeper than that.  There are laws put in place to prevent _anyone_ from just calling themselves whatever they want and holding out that representation to the general public.  Surely, I could not just call myself a chiropractor and get away with it; more importantly, what kind of confidence could individuals who subscribe to that school of treatment expect from me if I could do that?   That’s why the law is there — for the protection of the general public including triathletes. Now as for the rest of your argument… <Sound of flamethrower firing up in the distance approaching….  What is it with you and Phil? Does it personally offend you that someone  who didn’t go through the archaic and arcane process we so lovingly refer  to as medical school uses the title?

I did not see any thing other than mild hyperbole to suggest that Mark Jenkins has it "in" for Dr. Maffetone (although I must admit that I have no idea what his ideas in this specific instance are, BTW).   I interpreted the statement to be a clarification of fact that was missing from Dr. Maffetone’s counterpoint (since proven wrong for all of Canada and Texas, at least) to my earlier post.  Is it that you refuse to accept that  maybe someone has come upon a workable system of developing and enhancing  athletic performance through individual inititiative and research rather  than through that most corrupt process of peer review and acedemically  funded research?

Come again?  Are you suggesting that  ALL "academically funded research" is somehow corrupt?  By that logic, you would then be saying that any academically funded research for chiropractic is also corrupt.  Surely that is not the case.  But I’m sure you can document the fact that  all peer review and research is fatally flawed.  Maybe your sentiment here is better saved for  aerowheel tests.  The people with whom Phil works are happy with the quality of care they  receive, their performances are improving and they continue to put their  faith and trust in his knowledge and expertise.

Here I have no argument with you or your logic.  If in fact, individuals are happy with the services they receive from trained, qualified and certified healthcare providers, then that individual alone should be the ultimate arbitrator.  But that is off the mark: remember that the question was what someone could call themselves in their representations to triathletes. What do you care if he  calls himself a Dr. or Donald Duck?

See above. Last I noticed almost every top  professional triathlete that I have met makes some form of alternate  therapy a part of their program. As an aside, almost all of them came to  alternative care after poor service with little positive result from  "traditional" medicine.

I too (although _definitely_ not a pro <chuckle) subscribe to so-called "alternate" therapies such as massage for a cervical disk problem.  Heck, the evidence may be anectodal, but it works for me!   But again, can you prove (perhaps via "academically funded or peer research" <G) that "almost all pros" (what is that sample size, anyway?) have arrived at the choice to use alternate therapies as a result of "poor service with little positive result from traditional medicine"? How many hours of nutrition are required in med  school these days. Last time I checked (a few years ago), it was less than  2% of the curriculum at most schools.

That’s _exactly_ why there is a RD (Registered Dietician) designation. Check out recent discussions in sci.med.  If some MD, DO, DC or whatever were to hold themselves out to be an RD without appropriate qualification, then perhaps they should be challenged.  I know that may sound a little rough but Phil is taking a lot of abuse of  late and I have yet to see or hear him do anything that was not helpful to  our sport or the athletes he works with.

Zag, I don’t think that was the reason for Dr. J’s or my post.  Oh yes, as for your last comment above,… that’s the same reason I support Dr. Jenkins! Cordially yours on the scorched earth of r.s.t, Tom

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Dan, JJ, & Dr. Brug raise good points.  I agree with much of what they say, and add these further thoughts:   Titles do matter.  A title implies that one possesses an advanced degree of skill, knowledge, and accomplishment in a specialized field.  It says to the world, "I am an expert, I am ethical  - trust me." Yet, because we live in an imperfect world, there will always be those who take advantage of the public trust.  Thus, in order to ensure our own safety, we must challenge credentials.  If a person’s actual experience and education are worthy of a title, public scrutiny will bear this out. If a person’s actual experience and education are not worthy of a title, then that lack of experience and/or education should be revealed. It is practically impossible for the public to know the reputation and credentials of every doctor.  The only way the unknowing public can separate the good from the bad is through honest, rigorous, scrutiny. Such scrutiny is particularly important in the field of medicine because so much is at stake, namely the health, safety and welfare of the patients.  Good doctors realize this and welcome an open dialogue. As an attorney, I hold myself out as having a specialized skill and knowledge.  However, I also realize that there are both good and bad attorneys in the world, and that it is not always easy for the general public to discern the difference.  We all have degrees.  We all have advanced educations.  We all claim to be good at what we do.  However, some of us are clearly better and more ethical than others.  The only way for the public to discern among us to challenge us.  Ask us questions.  Be critical.  Don’t settle.  Any attorney worth his or her salt welcomes the opportunity to prove and defend his or her own credentials. It is fair and necessary to challenge Philip Maffetone’s credentials.  He holds himself out as a medical expert and he should expect scrutiny as to those credentials.  However, I do not believe that it is fair to criticize Maffetone for the publicity which he has been getting; the exposure is good for his business and, if I were him, I’d be happy to have it.  If there is any blame to be had, it lies with those who are giving him the publicity;  they decide which mug gets the press. By the way, Dan, if Triathlete offered you a cover story or two, would you balk at the exposure?:) As to Jenky, I agree with Dan: Jenky’s comments are always constructive, reasoned, and respectful.   His participation is an asset to the group. Cory H.  

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don’t refer to myself as an engineer, I don’t any license to do what I do, I don’t have an MBA, I don’t have a law degree, I sometimes pay my taxes late, I sometimes pay my vendors late, I have hair on my back, I occasionally smell bad, and I cuss alot when I’m mad.  Now, if you still choose to buy my wetsuit you’ve been forewarned.  I  would feel much, much more comfortable with Phil’s comments if there were similar qualifications attached.

Sorry to ruin a truely excellent post (which I totally agree with) but after hearing the above I think I may try to get my money back from my wetsuit, and not buy a QR bike….  :-) John (you did see the smiley, didn’t you?) K.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK, Mark, here is where I flick my BIC. What is it with you and Phil? Does it personally offend you that someone who didn’t go through the archaic and arcane process we so lovingly refer to as medical school uses the title? Is it that you refuse to accept that maybe someone has come upon a workable system of developing and enhancing athletic performance through individual inititiative and research rather than through that most corrupt process of peer review and acedemically funded research? The people with whom Phil works are happy with the quality of care they receive, their performances are improving and they continue to put their faith and trust in his knowledge and expertise. What do you care if he calls himself a Dr. or Donald Duck? Last I noticed almost every top professional triathlete that I have met makes some form of alternate therapy a part of their program. As an aside, almost all of them came to alternative care after poor service with little positive result from "traditional" medicine. How many hours of nutrition are required in med school these days. Last time I checked (a few years ago), it was less than 2% of the curriculum at most schools. I know that may sound a little rough but Phil is taking a lot of abuse of late and I have yet to see or hear him do anything that was not helpful to our sport or the athletes he works with. ZAG

ZAG, First of all, I apologize to anyone who has misinterpreted my postings as an attack on Dr. Maffetone. They are not. I am not responsible for some of the rude things that others have said about him. I have not, in any way, criticized him or his profession. Essentially, there is no controversy or competition here — except what some people seem to want to create. I have addressed him and everyone else on this newsgroup in a professional manner. There are over 100 types of professionals deserving the term doctor, and I address all of them as "doctor" ; Veterinarians, chiropractors, osteopaths, Ph.D.s, M.D.s, optometrists, podiatrists, naturopaths, dentists, and others. Asking someone what kind of doctor they are is not the same thing as an attack on their credibility. Each week, a few patients will ask me what kind of doctor I am, where I trained, or other questions that might be perceived as "questioning my authority". If I got my hackles up every time this happened, I guess I would spend a lot of time with erect fur. It is simply an honest question, worthy of an honest answer — and not an emotional response. There really isn’t an issue about "traditional" vs. "non-traditional" medicine. I think too many people want to see the world as black and white, but it really is a collection of many shades of gray. I recognize that there are many health professionals from many disciplines who provide excellent care, and I am not so arrogant as to think that only M.D.s can provide quality health care. It may even surprise you to learn that I have referred patients to "non-traditional" practitioners when it was clear that it was appropriate for me to do so. If you have encountered pompous, arrogant physicians, I am sorry, but please do not stereotype me or my profession. I recognize that there are some complete jerks in my field, but that does not mean that all M.D.s are uncaring, selfish, pompous bastards. Prejudicial bias colors ones perceptions, and I guess some people will see what they want to see. Please don’t judge me based on the initials that follow my name. Finally, asking another professional detailed scientific questions and engaging in discussion is not a personal attack. I have certainly learned a lot from this interaction and I hope that others have as well. In our blind rush to get faster — heads down, joining the crowd — is it wrong for one or two people to stop and question where we are going? In my educational process, I have not been taught *what* to think, but rather that I *should*  think. I realize that I am nothing– a "nobody". I am a small voice, without all the accolades that are attached to some members of the inner sanctum of our sport, but I can still ask questions. If I don’t understand, please forgive me for asking, reading, thinking, and occasionally pointing out things that need clarification. I hope this clears the air a bit, but please don’t misinterpret the above. It was delivered in a relaxed, polite, conversational tone.                                         Mark A. Jenkins, M.D.

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I care.  And I’m glad Jenky cares.  There is one big difference between Phil and Jenky.  Phil is like me.  He has something to sell to the people in this newsgroup.  And therefore everyone here should be very wary of what I say, and what Phil says, because we are both hocking our wares. For that reason neither of us should be surprised if we get extra scrutiny, especially if it appears that what we are telling is not the whole story.

Damn right. That’s the heart of the matter. Also just because someone/anyone is an author, owns a modem, has friends on the inside, wins a race, gets  a lot of press  or wins an award from the bagman for the boys downtown network doesn’t mean the person is a hero, a star or a leader. So far from it in some cases. There’s  a lot of marketeers, kingmakers, agents and wheeler dealers out there and they try to influence the media which influences the public which gives the clients  bigger resumes and then bigger contracts. At times this network works with great success. Sometimes its at work right here. What you see, sometimes, isn’t really what is. JJ

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individual inititiative and research rather than through that most corrupt process of peer review and acedemically funded research?

Scientific research is generally an accumulative field of knowledge with contributions made by many investigators over a long period of time.  Each scientist’s work is dependent on other researchers, both contemporary and historically.  When an individual goes off on his/her own initiative, without benefit of peer criticism at seminars, colloqia, etc., and without being required to substantiate the significance of his/her intended research, the "scientist" is very likely to go off the shallow end and come up with some pretty funny voodoo.  A good deal of the advice in this newsgroup falls into that category, regardless of which soi-disant letters of achievement attach to the name.  Much of this advice is very effective.  Few people would doubt the efficacy of faith healing.  Faith healing does not benefit by peer review and academic funding.  In that sense, you are perfectly right. Ruth Kazez

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<<What is it with you and Phil? Does it personally offend you that someone <<who didn’t go through the archaic and arcane process we so lovingly refer <<to as medical school uses the title? I have not seen Jenky refer to Phil in only but (generally) the most restrained way, considering the *serious* departure that Phil takes from Western Medicine.  While I, because of my egregious disrespect for anything and everything, richly deserve your sarcasm, it appears to me that Jenky has bent over backwards to restrain himself, and therefore does not deserve it (since he has wielded very little of it himself). <<Is it that you refuse to accept that <<maybe someone has come upon a workable system of developing and enhancing <<athletic performance through individual inititiative and research rather <<than through that most corrupt process of peer review and acedemically <<funded research? Although I doubt if Jenky sees himself in this position, Jenky for me is the medical information "gatekeeper" of this newsgroup.  You may fling your barbs at the foibles of "Western Medicine", but where would you be without it?  At the end of the day, I’ll take Jenky’s rigorous and scholarly approach over Phil’s speculations.  Phil may turn out to be right in much or most of what he says (or maybe not).  In any case, I greatly value Jenky as the opposing voice, just to put Phil’s ideas in a proper perspective. <<The people with whom Phil works are happy with the quality of care they <<receive, their performances are improving and they continue to put their <<faith and trust in his knowledge and expertise. I haven’t seen Jenky question either their right to seek his advice, or the overall quality of Phil’s advice.  I have only seen Jenky question Phil on those matters where there is a clear need for a question to be asked. <<What do you care if he calls himself a Dr. or Donald Duck? I care.  And I’m glad Jenky cares.  There is one big difference between Phil and Jenky.  Phil is like me.  He has something to sell to the people in this newsgroup.  And therefore everyone here should be very wary of what I say, and what Phil says, because we are both hocking our wares. For that reason neither of us should be surprised if we get extra scrutiny, especially if it appears that what we are telling is not the whole story. <<I know that may sound a little rough but Phil is taking a lot of abuse of <<late and I have yet to see or hear him do anything that was not helpful to <<our sport or the athletes he works with. Phil "sounds" like he speaks with great authority and finality.  He is perceived as an "august presence" here in this newsgroup, because he isn’t just another joe like me and you, he sidles up to the term "physician", and we don’t question the judgement of physicians.  We swallow what they say lock, stock, and barrel, and suspend judgement.  Occasionally he posts a highly questionable piece of information which– because Phil *never* qualifies his statements with "it is my opinion" or "realize that what I say is questioned by others in the medical profession"– could be interpreted to be a belief that is not in any question.   I enjoy having Phil in this newsgroup, and value his opinions.  However I highly, highly value Jenky as a check from Western Medicine’s point of view.  Phil could relieve himself of most of the grief he gets here if he qualified his beliefs more often.  When I tell people in this newsgroup how to mount their cleats, I say up front that my formula is cult-like, and is not adhered to by 80% of the bike shop mechanics.  My beliefs are therefore set against the backdrop of what the "industry" believes.  I don’t refer to myself as an engineer, I don’t any license to do what I do, I don’t have an MBA, I don’t have a law degree, I sometimes pay my taxes late, I sometimes pay my vendors late, I have hair on my back, I occasionally smell bad, and I cuss alot when I’m mad.  Now, if you still choose to buy my wetsuit you’ve been forewarned.  I  would feel much, much more comfortable with Phil’s comments if there were similar qualifications attached. QRman

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 <<< In most jurisdictions (all states, 10 provinces, assorted and sundry  territories, protectorates and the like) it is illegal to pass one’s  self off as a physician unless one holds an approved MD degree.  That’s news to me, and a lot of other licensed professionals. Maybe you’re  right and we’re all wrong. (Not that it _really_ matters.) Also, my  diploma says "physican."  Philip Maffetone

Dr. M, a clarification is in order for my earlier statement.  I did not have enough information to make the above statement regarding "all states".  However, you may be interested in the following information.  In Canada, only persons licenced by their respective  provincial boards (i.e. College of Physicians and Surgeons of Alberta) may use the terminlogy "physician" and/or "surgeon".  To become licenced by the board, the following requirements are needed; you must have an "approved MD degree from an accredited college [their words, not mine, BTW]"  or a PhD in an approved disciple (i.e. pyschology/psychiatry) and you must pass a two part LLMC C exam, administered by the Medical Council of Canada. In my home province this is goverend by the Medical Professions Act, a legislated statute. Further, practices such as the prescription of pharmaceuticals is restricted to "MD’s"  and is not available to many allied health professions such as chiropractors and phyical therapists.  As for a specialization in "sports medicine", no MD may describe themselves as a specialist without having the appropriate approval and certificate from the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada, which, interestingly does _not_ offer or recognize a specialization in sports medicine.  Physicians, however, can advertise themselves as having a "special interest" [once again, the college's words] in sports injuries and medicine. Lest you think this is some kind of non-MD bashing, it was not intended to be that. I merely wanted to point out that there are usually (well founded, IMO) restrictions as to who can claim to be what.  I know many of the allied professions have high standards and that there are bound to be good and not-so-good in each and that healthcare providers other than "licenced MDs" are an important part of the triathlon (medical) scene. Of course, none of this _really_ matters to triathlon, does it? <wink Tom Ruta

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athletic performance through individual inititiative and research rather than through that most corrupt process of peer review and acedemically funded research?

Peer review, although not perfect, is a time-tested manner of separating garbage from valuable information.  As a matter of fact, peer review is precisely what goes on in this newsgroup.  Do you have some better means in mind for evaluating the validity of theories than the one which has been used for literally all of the scientific advances made? faith and trust in his knowledge and expertise. What do you care if he calls himself a Dr. or Donald Duck? Last I noticed almost every top

Speaking as someone who has spent the past 3.5 years working pretty damn hard towards obtaining a Ph.D., I care a great deal about someone misrepresenting him or herself.  For a more verbose rant on this subject, see my other recent post in this thread. I think Dr. Jenkin’s comment on this matter was completely reasonable. Timothy — Timothy Gotsick

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I don’t have all 50 states’ statutes in front of me, but I believe that this law is standard. This, of course, is not really relevant to triathlons, except that all of us are on mailing lists and receive a considerable amount of advertising. These laws are in place to protect consumers and to assist them in making choices. I hope this helps. OK, Mark, here is where I flick my BIC. What is it with you and Phil? Does it personally offend you that someone who didn’t go through the archaic and arcane process we so lovingly refer to as medical school uses the title? …

You guys gotta be sh**in’ me! FACT:  Maffetone states that physicians and D.C.’s are synoymous and his diploma says he’s a physician. FACT:  Previous Canadian poster states that D.C’s in Canada can’t use the term physicians. FACT:  Jenky wrote in that in Texas (and maybe other states) D.C.’s can’t use the term physician to describe themselves. FACT:  Here’s another case of someone making a general statement without checking the FACTS. The people with whom Phil works are happy with the quality of care they receive, their performances are improving and they continue to put their faith and trust in his knowledge and expertise.

I’m sure this is the case, but this really doesn’t have anything to do with D.C. being synoymous with physicians. Frankly, I’m a more than a little tired of reading about Maffetone (good and bad).  Tim G. previously posted that he’s offended by Dr. Phil representing himself as a biochemist.  I’m sure I’m going to miss a few, but recently I’ve seen  Phil in the Wind Tunnel;  Phil & T. DeBoom Saga (funny but isn’t Phil Tim’s agent?); Phil as a Physician;  Phil as future TriFed President (Katy you probably thought I forgot that one);  BetaBars, PRBars and Phil.  D**n, maybe someone should call NBC, and we could start a mini-series! From a lot of the sigs, I know there are a lot of RSTers who have dedicated a signifcant portion of their lives to education.  One thing I’ve found is the more your learn (& research), the more you find out you don’t know (exactly).  Also, the more you study, the more clearly defined your boundaries of expertise become. My personal problem is that it appears that the triathlon media doesn’t realize Dr. Phil’s boundaries.  I’m not contesting the fact that Dr. Phil is very good in his area of training; however, it definitely does not make him an expert at many other aspects of triathlon.  Heck, you can call me "Dr", but I have trouble putting on a band-aid straight, so please don’t call me "physician", "nutritionist", "aerospace engineer", "sports agent", "NGB prez"… Pat    W.Patrick Brug, Ph.D.  _-           -_    Los Alamos National Lab -__       __-                                       /    cis:      72410,3372        /  

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As I’ve said before, what I object to is the use of the title "Dr." as a means of implying expertise not in chiropractic, which Maffetone is trained in, but in biochemistry and nutrition, which are the subjects upon which most of his reputation is based.   [Flame ON] Further, no one has bothered (or perhaps no one cares to admit) to explain whether the amount of advanced training which a chiropractor receives is comparable to that required for possession of an M.D. or Ph.D..  I will, of course, go find out on my own at some point, but the deafening silence on this matter suggests to me that my suspicions are correct, and that training for chiropractic is not of the same depth as that of the usual "Dr."’s. [Flame OFF] pretty mild, really… For the record, I once again state that I do not think that lack of the title "Dr." invalidates one’s opinions on areas outside or inside one’s area of claimed expertise.  But to my ear, the weight given to the opinion of a professionally trained person is greater than that given to someone who just happens to have an opinion. Hell, as long as I’m ranting (I can feel the caffeine rush starting NOW!!!!), why is Maffetone’s opinion given so much weight anyway? Triathlete’s "Coach of the Year" (great source of an endorsement, eh?) was pictured with his three stars at Kona this year.  Well, think about it, Allen crapped out at the Berlin Marathon and didn’t reach his goal at IM Germany, Pigg was well down in the results at Kona, and Tim DeBoom didn’t even start.  Not what I would term a stellar record for the charges of someone thought by many to be the ultimate coach of ultra-endurance athletes. Obviously, I’m slanting things here, but still, I don’t think the cult of personality which has risen around Maffetone is a good thing.  Chances are that he personally is a decent, well intentioned person, but since he seems very selective about which posts he responds to, I don’t feel that I’ve gotten to see that side of him. The hype surrounding him, which must be at least condoned by Maffetone himself, seems unjustified in many respects.  If his presence in the sport has done you some good, that’s great, but I am at a loss to understand why so many seem willing to overlook the oddities in this whole saga. I guess a good question would also be why this whole thing irks me so much… Timothy — Timothy Gotsick

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First of all, I’ll put my bias on the table:  I have a visceral discomfort with chiropractors being called Dr. or referred to as a physician.  And I have problems with Maffetone presenting himself as an expert on biochemistry, which I think he often does.  In the past, I’ve felt that the title "Dr." when used in front of Maffetone has constituted an attempt to imply a level of training that simply isn’t there.  This is not to say that Maffetone’s ideas are not worthy of respect; clearly there is a lot of empirical evidence in the form of the athletes who follow his advice that he is on to something important for endurance athletes. That said, I would be willing to lose my visceral discomfort with chiropractors being called "Dr." if someone would convince me that the training necessary to become a chiropractor is comparable to that required to get an M.D. or Ph.D..  I have been under the perhaps mistaken impression that the levels of training necessary for the two disciplines was not comparable.  Anyone care to shatter my ignorance? Timothy — Timothy Gotsick

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – First of all, I’ll put my bias on the table:  I have a visceral discomfort with chiropractors being called Dr. or referred to as a physician.  And I have problems with Maffetone presenting himself as an expert on biochemistry, which I think he often does.  In the past, I’ve felt that the title "Dr." when used in front of Maffetone has constituted an attempt to imply a level of training that simply isn’t there.  This is not to say that Maffetone’s ideas are not worthy of respect; clearly there is a lot of empirical evidence in the form of the athletes who follow his advice that he is on to something important for endurance athletes. That said, I would be willing to lose my visceral discomfort with chiropractors being called "Dr." if someone would convince me that the training necessary to become a chiropractor is comparable to that required to get an M.D. or Ph.D..  I have been under the perhaps mistaken impression that the levels of training necessary for the two disciplines was not comparable.  Anyone care to shatter my ignorance?

Timothy: I don’t know that I disagree with you entirely but I do have another point of view on the concept of MD’s deserving the "title" and DC’s not. While there are DC’s who certainly overstep their bounds, the AMA type medical profession is no less guilty and in fact, the highly trained MD’s get to bury their mistakes while a DC may have to only account for the occassional stomach ache or sore neck. MD’s should have more training. The scope of their ability to invade the human body far exceeds the scope of the DC. Please do not read that I am in favor of the DC who claims to be able to cure cancer, only that I have been an alternate medicine patient for twenty five years and I am generally more comfortable on the chiropractic table that in the office of an MD. "You know the difference between a doctor and God? God doesn’t want to be a doctor." With apologies to Mark Jenkins. ZAG

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writes: <<< In most jurisdictions (all states, 10 provinces, assorted and sundry territories, protectorates and the like) it is illegal to pass one’s self off as a physician unless one holds an approved MD degree. That’s news to me, and a lot of other licensed professionals. Maybe you’re right and we’re all wrong. (Not that it _really_ matters.) Also, my diploma says "physican." Philip Maffetone

Philip, I hate to burst your bubble here, but the designation of "physician" can only be applied to M.D s  and  D.O.s — both have equivalent training. There are laws to this effect which govern identification via signs, pamphlets, stationery, letterheads, signature, or any other means of professional identification. The following is an excerpt from the Healing Art Identification Act — Texas Rev. Civ. Stat Ann. art. 4590e. " If licensed by the Texas Board of Chiropractic Examiners, the following identification is proper: 1. Chiropractor 2. Doctor, D.C. 3. Doctor of Chiropractic 4. D.C. " I don’t have all 50 states’ statutes in front of me, but I believe that this law is standard. This, of course, is not really relevant to triathlons, except that all of us are on mailing lists and receive a considerable amount of advertising. These laws are in place to protect consumers and to assist them in making choices. I hope this helps.                                         Mark A. Jenkins, M.D..

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there are DC’s who certainly overstep their bounds, the AMA type medical profession is no less guilty and in fact, the highly trained MD’s get to bury their mistakes while a DC may have to only account for the occassional stomach ache or sore neck. MD’s should have more training. The scope of their ability to invade the human body far exceeds the scope of the DC. Please do not read that I am in favor of the DC who claims to be able to cure cancer, only that I have been an alternate medicine patient for twenty five years and I am generally more comfortable on the chiropractic table that in the office of an MD.

Hey, don’t get me wrong, I have a lot less faith now than I used to in the ability of MD’s to treat people as opposed to human bodies.  And I agree that there are substantial problems with the medical profession and the AMA in particular.  However, that doesn’t go to the point of my original post. The problems with "real" doctors is fodder for a different thread.  At the moment I’m very curious whether this one will go, and I’ll pass on taking up the gauntlet concerning MD’s. BTW, I don’t know how many MD’s are in this group, but the only one I can recall is Dr. Jenkins.  If one judged the profession by his posts, I, for one, would have a much higher opinion of MD’s. Timothy — Timothy Gotsick

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Philip, I hate to burst your bubble here, but the designation of "physician" can only be applied to M.D s  and  D.O.s — both have equivalent training. There are laws to this effect which govern identification via signs, pamphlets, stationery, letterheads, signature, or any other means of professional identification. The following is an excerpt from the Healing Art Identification Act — Texas Rev. Civ. Stat Ann. art. 4590e. " If licensed by the Texas Board of Chiropractic Examiners, the following identification is proper: 1. Chiropractor 2. Doctor, D.C. 3. Doctor of Chiropractic 4. D.C. " I don’t have all 50 states’ statutes in front of me, but I believe that this law is standard. This, of course, is not really relevant to triathlons, except that all of us are on mailing lists and receive a considerable amount of advertising. These laws are in place to protect consumers and to assist them in making choices. I hope this helps.

OK, Mark, here is where I flick my BIC. What is it with you and Phil? Does it personally offend you that someone who didn’t go through the archaic and arcane process we so lovingly refer to as medical school uses the title? Is it that you refuse to accept that maybe someone has come upon a workable system of developing and enhancing athletic performance through individual inititiative and research rather than through that most corrupt process of peer review and acedemically funded research? The people with whom Phil works are happy with the quality of care they receive, their performances are improving and they continue to put their faith and trust in his knowledge and expertise. What do you care if he calls himself a Dr. or Donald Duck? Last I noticed almost every top professional triathlete that I have met makes some form of alternate therapy a part of their program. As an aside, almost all of them came to alternative care after poor service with little positive result from "traditional" medicine. How many hours of nutrition are required in med school these days. Last time I checked (a few years ago), it was less than 2% of the curriculum at most schools. I know that may sound a little rough but Phil is taking a lot of abuse of late and I have yet to see or hear him do anything that was not helpful to our sport or the athletes he works with. ZAG

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<<< In most jurisdictions (all states, 10 provinces, assorted and sundry territories, protectorates and the like) it is illegal to pass one’s   self off as a physician unless one holds an approved MD degree. That’s news to me, and a lot of other licensed professionals. Maybe   you’re right and we’re all wrong. (Not that it _really_ matters.) Also, my diploma says "physican." Philip Maffetone

Touche! By the way doc, what is cranial manipulation???  I’m just very curious as   to what exactly this is.  In fact, when I mentioned it to a colleague at   work, he said "I don’t know either, but it sounds like something you   need." Marty Miller (aka The Noodle) Proprietor of "The Triathlete’s Web" http://iac.net/~miller/triathlon-home.html

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Zagarino writes: I know that may sound a little rough but Phil is taking a lot of abuse of late and I have yet to see or hear him do anything that was not helpful to our sport or the athletes he works with.

Hear, hear (or is it, here, here)! Let’s quit dumping on Phil. I have two comments to add in support of chiropractors who identify themselves as doctors. 1.) When I lived in Boulder, my favorite chiropractor was Dr. Otsie Stowell. I never questioned his training; he was a titled professional in his field, and I got results from what he did for me. There are dozens and dozens of chiropractors in any community who list themselves as "Dr. Whoever," and I’ve never heard their credentials questioned to the extent everyone has grilled Dr. Phil Maffetone. 2.) Thousands of exercise physiologists who have Ph.D.’s are also titled Dr. Thousands of others with Ph.D.’s in other academic fields are called Dr. Come on, everyone, the use of Dr. indicates a high degree of training in one’s field. Let’s give Dr. Maffetone the respect he deserves. Perhaps I didn’t state any of the above very eloquently, but I’ve just been reading this thread a while and simmering, because I know what Phil can do and has done. Katherine Williams

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 As Dave Letterman would say, "what’s the deal here?"

Can you say "sham"… I thought you could!  Several times in the last few months Phil Maffetone has said he has no  relation with PR*Bar (that’s not a direct quote, obviously). Two weeks  ago I got the "PR*Bar Newsletter" in the mail. Lead story? "We are proud  to have Dr. Philip Maffetone on board as our Medical Director. Dr.  Maffetone is a sports physician…" [Incidentally, I wasn't aware that  it was proper to call a chiropractor a "physician"].

Can your say "practising medicine without a licence?"  I _knew_ you could!  In most jurisdictions (all states, 10 provinces, assorted and sundry territories, protectorates and the like) it is illegal to pass one’s self off as a physician unless one holds an approved MD degree. Chiropractors, though,  to the best of my knowledge can call themselves Doctor everywhere. Plus  there are enough subtlties in advertising that allow such things to occur.  For example, in Canada you can’t call yourself a physical therapist/physiotherapist unless you are registered with the provincial college; but you can be a joe/josephine off the street and call yourself a "thereapist" with interest in physical sports. Caveat emptor. Tom

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<<< In most jurisdictions (all states, 10 provinces, assorted and sundry territories, protectorates and the like) it is illegal to pass one’s self off as a physician unless one holds an approved MD degree. That’s news to me, and a lot of other licensed professionals. Maybe you’re right and we’re all wrong. (Not that it _really_ matters.) Also, my diploma says "physican." Philip Maffetone

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Dr. M…. Touche…..very well said. Dana

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<<<Two weeks ago I got the "PR*Bar Newsletter" in the mail. Lead story? "We are proud to have Dr. Philip Maffetone on board as our Medical Director. Dr. Maffetone is a sports physician…" [Incidentally, I wasn't aware that it was proper to call a chiropractor a "physician"].

This is just a reminder for "buyers-to-beware"… Facts       D.C.  equals      physician  (according to this post)       M.D.  equals      physician       D.C.  NOT EQUALS  M.D. Gee, here’s another case where logic (and the transitive property) doesn’t apply.  I don’t really have a too strong of an opinion, but for those of you who might be uncomfortable with _certain types_ of physicians, just make sure their credentials are suitable to you. Here’ my problem…       M.D.                     NOT EQUALS   sports physician       D.C.                     NOT EQUALS   sports physician       M.D. + special training  EQUALS       sports physician       D.C. + special training  EQUALS (?)   sports physician       D.C. sports physcian     NOT EQUALS   M.D. sports physician For the last case, remember the two individuals have different backgrounds, philosophies and skills.  IMHO, its like comparing apples and oranges.  So, if you want apples, don’t go looking in Florida’s orange groves…    W.Patrick Brug, Ph.D.  _-           -_    Los Alamos National Lab -__       __-                                       /    cis:      72410,3372        /  

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As Dave Letterman would say, "what’s the deal here?" Several times in the last few months Phil Maffetone has said he has no relation with PR*Bar (that’s not a direct quote, obviously). Two weeks ago I got the "PR*Bar Newsletter" in the mail. Lead story? "We are proud to have Dr. Philip Maffetone on board as our Medical Director. Dr. Maffetone is a sports physician…" [Incidentally, I wasn't aware that it was proper to call a chiropractor a "physician"]. Then, a little later, I get the May Inside Triathlon, and see ads for [insert trumpet sounds here] a new energy bar, the BetaBar, being promoted by the same Dr. Philip Maffetone. "What’s the deal here?" Then I turn to the "Wingnut Wendy" interview. Here’s what Wendy Ingraham, key PR*Bar endorser, has to say in response to the question "How are you going to be training differently this season?": "That’s hopefully what Phil [Maffetone], a few other people and I can figure out. Apparently, it is all going to start with rebalancing my diet. Last year, I don’t think I felt as good physically as I did in ‘93. Even though my results in ‘94 were better, I just didn’t feel as good. I think somewhere along the line I got off track with my diet." Excuse me, Wendy, but wasn’t ‘94 the year that you were all over the pages of our magazines, telling us how great the PR*Bar diet was? "What *is* the deal here?" Sign me,  Curious in Cupertino

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<<<Several times in the last few months Phil Maffetone has said he has no relation with PR*Bar (that’s not a direct quote, obviously). Let me say it for the record, I am not with PR Nutrition (as of the first of the year). I am now with BetaBar, a new energy bar with a different formula. <<<Two weeks ago I got the "PR*Bar Newsletter" in the mail. Lead story? "We are proud to have Dr. Philip Maffetone on board as our Medical Director. Dr. Maffetone is a sports physician…" [Incidentally, I wasn't aware that it was proper to call a chiropractor a "physician"]. You’ll have to ask PR Nutrition why they’re still sending out literature that’s over a year old. [Yes, chiropractors are considered, and properly referred to as, physicians.] <<<Then, a little later, I get the May Inside Triathlon, and see ads for [insert trumpet sounds here] a new energy bar, the BetaBar, being promoted by the same Dr. Philip Maffetone. <<<Then I turn to the "Wingnut Wendy" interview. Here’s what Wendy Ingraham, key PR*Bar endorser, has to say in response to the question "How are you going to be training differently this season?": "That’s hopefully what Phil [Maffetone], a few other people and I can figure out. Apparently, it is all going to start with rebalancing my diet. I have consulted for many companies, and also – as a separate practice – treat and train athletes. The two don’t always match, nor do they need to. In many sports, I may even train two athletes who are fierce competitors of each other. It’s never been a problem for me or the athlete (i.e. Pigg & Allen). Philip Maffetone

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