Question:

Mark, Yes, but if I beat you in a race by running strategically, I still beat you, and most would consider me the superior runner.  Would you expect me to not drop you on a hill if I could, since this wouldn’t "even the odds"? Owen McCall "Get away from that water table!"

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ahhh…  but let’s even the odds by giving the Gazelle a gourd of water Sounds like the victim was defeated strategically rather than "outrun". — mark Not necessarily.  Depends on how you define "run".  (God, I sound like Clinton.)  There is an African tribe who hunt Gazelles and other very fast ungulates, on foot.  Two guys start out at dawn carrying light spears, a water gourd, and a little gourd of dried sorghum to munch on.  They spot a victim and JOG toward it.  It runs away.  Repeat.  Repeat.  Repeat. Repeat. Repeat.  They continue to pursue, JOGGING.  The team keeps the animal moving all day long and only run when necessary to drive the animal away from water holes;  the second guy refills the gourd at said water holes.  Near the end of the day, as the sun is setting, they JOG up to the Gazelle and chuck their spears into the prostrate, exhausted & dehydrated unfortunate. There you have it:  a way to earn your living by jogging.  Which is the better Owen McCall (snip) In fact, even the world’s best running humans are poor runners in comparison. — mark

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Not necessarily.  Depends on how you define "run".  (God, I sound like Clinton.)  There is an African tribe who hunt Gazelles and other very fast ungulates, on foot.  Two guys start out at dawn carrying light spears, a water gourd, and a little gourd of dried sorghum to munch on.  They spot a victim and JOG toward it.  It runs away.  Repeat.  Repeat.  Repeat. Repeat. Repeat.  They continue to pursue, JOGGING.  The team keeps the animal moving all day long and only run when necessary to drive the animal away from water holes;  the second guy refills the gourd at said water holes.  Near the end of the day, as the sun is setting, they JOG up to the Gazelle and chuck their spears into the prostrate, exhausted & dehydrated unfortunate. There you have it:  a way to earn your living by jogging.  Which is the better

But, if a hungry lion happened to show up while the guys were jogging after the gazelle what would the lion be having for lunch, gazelle or human? Who is the better runner then? It’s a bit like asking who is the better runner, Maurice Greene or Khalid Khannouchi. They’re both just better at what they do – neither is a better "runner" than the other. Perhaps your question should have been, which has a better combination of endurance and intelligence, the human or the gazelle? — Regards, Barry Running & Stuff: http://homepages.go.com/~barry841

Response:

Sorry, I still don’t get it.  What do you mean by hip rotation?  What I visualize when you say that is the kind of motion in your hips you would need in order to go from sitting with your legs out in front of you to sitting in the lotus position.  That can’t be right, so could you try

Imagine your hips locked and always perpenticular to the path you are running. Your legs would have a limited reach forward. Now imagine your hips rotating around its axis somewhat with each stride. Now, the legs are able to reach forward much farther. You can notice this while walking. jack

Response:

Ahhh…  but let’s even the odds by giving the Gazelle a gourd of water Sounds like the victim was defeated strategically rather than "outrun". — mark

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Not necessarily.  Depends on how you define "run".  (God, I sound like Clinton.)  There is an African tribe who hunt Gazelles and other very fast ungulates, on foot.  Two guys start out at dawn carrying light spears, a water gourd, and a little gourd of dried sorghum to munch on.  They spot a victim and JOG toward it.  It runs away.  Repeat.  Repeat.  Repeat. Repeat. Repeat.  They continue to pursue, JOGGING.  The team keeps the animal moving all day long and only run when necessary to drive the animal away from water holes;  the second guy refills the gourd at said water holes.  Near the end of the day, as the sun is setting, they JOG up to the Gazelle and chuck their spears into the prostrate, exhausted & dehydrated unfortunate. There you have it:  a way to earn your living by jogging.  Which is the better Owen McCall (snip) In fact, even the world’s best running humans are poor runners in comparison. — mark

Response:

Not necessarily.  Depends on how you define "run".  (God, I sound like Clinton.)  There is an African tribe who hunt Gazelles and other very fast ungulates, on foot.  Two guys start out at dawn carrying light spears, a water gourd, and a little gourd of dried sorghum to munch on.  They spot a victim and JOG toward it.  It runs away.  Repeat.  Repeat.  Repeat.  Repeat. Repeat.  They continue to pursue, JOGGING.  The team keeps the animal moving all day long and only run when necessary to drive the animal away from water holes;  the second guy refills the gourd at said water holes.  Near the end of the day, as the sun is setting, they JOG up to the Gazelle and chuck their spears into the prostrate, exhausted & dehydrated unfortunate.  There you have it:  a way to earn your living by jogging.  Which is the better Owen McCall

(snip) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In fact, even the world’s best running humans are poor runners in comparison. — mark

Response:

Interesting  stuff, Fred.  I agree that we human’s can learn a lot from studying the ‘ancient runners’ — which is just about any animal that can develop 15+mph speed over ground. We are new runners.  In fact, even the world’s best running humans are poor runners in comparison. — mark

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This brings up a further interesting question of where the energy expended in running actually goes: is most of the energy used in generating forward motion (I assume by the calves, hamstrings and glutes) or is the energy involved in pulling the leg itself forward for each new step (with which muscles? the quads, abs and, to an extent, shins?) a significant part of the total energy use. If, as your post suggests, little energy is used in actually moving the leg forward for the next step then any increase in stride length is basically "free" extra speed. Anyway, I think I’ll be seeing if I can do this at all in practice tonight’s fartlek run (always a good session for trying out new things)… Ok.  This is as good a thread as any to dump this on all of you. A runner moving at steady speed on level ground does no useful work.  His potential energy doesn’t change from one step to the next as long as he doesn’t go up or downhill, and at steady speed, his kinetic energy doesn’t change.  This means his efficiency (the ratio of output power to input power) is zero.  If we’re going to talk about this, we have to use another word, say ‘economy.’ Common sense tells us that he expends energy though, and the rate of expenditure is related to his speed over the ground and the economy of his gait. But what are the mechanics of that expenditure, and what are the elements that contribute to economy?  In the current r.r canon, proper gait has footstrike occurring immediately below the center of gravity and the linkage between center of gravity and the foot contact patch elongating at a rate just enough to maintain the center of gravity at a constant distance from the ground (no head bobbing.)  If we think about the desirability of the leg to act like a wheel with the center of gravity at the axle, we have to say that it’s nothing like a wheel unless we say that we’re going to elongate the spokes to the contact patch somehow to accommodate changing angle. So how does this happen?  The ‘linkage’ includes the pelvis, upper and lower leg bones, ankle and toe.  ’Elongation’ means some combination of rotation of the pelvis as discussed in this thread (moving the push-off hip joint rearward relative to the center of gravity), rotation of the pelvis about the fore-and-aft axis (moving the push-off hip joint down relative the the center of gravity), locking the knee, fully extending the ankle by contracting the hamstring and glute, and finally push-off with the toe. <digression  Some time ago, I think that it was in the triathlon group, there was a discussion about the desirability  of stretching the ankle in extension for runners.  The conclusion was that for runners, it was unnecessary, but for tris, it was desirable because extended ankles made for a more effective kick in the swim.  But if the above linkage model has any validity for runners, too, the members opposing the contraction of the hams and glutes should be as supple as possible. </digression With this motion, energy is expended in the following way.  In the ideal case in which the center of gravity has no up and down motion, the net vertical force on the push-off contact patch must be equal to the runner’s weight.  Isaac says so.  It’s the elongation of the linkage against this vertical force that expends the energy – force times distance, just like in high school physics.  Why does the rate of energy expenditure go up at higher speeds?  Higher speeds mean longer strides, longer strides mean bigger angles for the linkage to work through (it takes zero energy to support the center of gravity as it passes over the contact patch; it takes a rapidly increasing amount as the contact patch moves out behind).  qed. With the completely unscientific guidance of maybe 10 or 15 thousand miles of running with huskies and malamutes, I claim that economy comes from exploiting small motions of large muscle groups, and, at the appropriate times, locked out joints.  Arguably, the canine trot is the most economical way of getting over the countryside (1000 miles in ten days on kibbles and some salmon strips), and, I claim, it’s because they’ve become masters at the strategy.  At the trot, the entire complex action of their forequarters comes from a periodic flick of the shoulders.  Everything else, bones, joints, feet, pads simply fly forward into place and lock out at the instant they are needed.  In the rear quarters, things aren’t quite so simple, but the motion is dominated by the hams and the rump muscles. Dogs have been working on propulsion for a few million years longer than we have, so maybe there’s something to learn from them.  Our hams and glutes might be the most economical muscle groups at extending the linkage, but the large muscles of the torso work too.  I suspect that the least economical groups are the quads and whatever else is required to support the bobbing bent-knee bent-over gait such as the one I use cresting the hill at mile 7. It’s sometimes mentioned (but somehow the idea evidently hasn’t entered the canon) in the ‘cadence’ threads that the preferred (high) cadence is no mistake.  It derives (those contributors say) from the pendulum period of the free swinging leg.  If this be true, then the most economical way for biped to swing the leg forward is to flick that hip joint forward (and maybe up a bit) and wait for the leg to follow through.  No quads, no psoas, no nothing except the small motions of the large muscles of the torso working against the counter rotations of the shoulders and the motion of the arms. So far, I haven’t seen much discussion about whether or not the knee should lock out at this point, but ‘economy’ would certainly argue for it. Advice is usually worth what you pay for it. Fred Klingener Roxbury CT

Response:

Also remember, 8% of of your energy expenditure is to push air away (when running distance) and up to 15% if running 100 meters at good speed. (From ‘Lore of Running’)

Response:

With this motion, energy is expended in the following way.  In the ideal case in which the center of gravity has no up and down motion, the net vertical force on the push-off contact patch must be equal to the runner’s weight.  Isaac says so.  It’s the elongation of the linkage against this vertical force that expends the energy – force times distance, just like in high school physics.  Why does the rate of energy expenditure go up at higher speeds?  Higher speeds mean longer strides, longer strides mean bigger angles for the linkage to work through (it takes zero energy to support the center of gravity as it passes over the contact patch; it takes a rapidly increasing amount as the contact patch moves out behind).  qed.

To extend what you say here, there must always be some vertical motion because there are periods (however brief) during each stride when both feet are off the ground (let’s call it ‘flight time’) and at this moment the body is, effectively, in free fall. In theory also, as the stride length becomes longer the ratio of ground contact time to flight time reduces so for an equal cadence more energy needs to be expended combatting the effects of gravity. It would also be true that for a reduced cadence the flight time would be longer which maybe partly explains why higher cadences are more efficient, especially as the energy required to combat gravity would be proportional to the flight time squared. — Regards, Barry Running & Stuff: http://homepages.go.com/~barry841

Response:

Yes but in a slightly different context. When I used to run competitive 400m’s, I felt warming up my hips so they would open up was my most important preparation for a race. Even now, I try to open them up to run faster without more effort.

Interesting.  I seem to recall that Australian Cathy Freeman had pronounced hip rotation on the final straight of her Olympic 400m final.  It pretty much looked to me like it was the difference in the race.

Response:

I getting a little confused by this thread… when you’re talking about ‘opening the hips’, do you mean they rotate more with the legs, or that they allow more forwards/backwards leg movement or something else? Could someone explain further? — Regards, Barry

Barry…. That’s exactly right — the hips rotate more with the legs *AND* allow more forward/backward leg movement.  By relaxing the hips and allowing them to rotate more freely with each stride, you are essentially adding length (and leverage) to your "legs".  As Ozzie mentioned above, picture your legs starting at the bottom of your rib cage instead of at your pelvic bone.  For me, that’s 10 inches of DESPERATELY NEEDED leg length (short inseam here). This rotation also seems to transfer some of the workload from the leg/hip muscles to the trunk. Seems to me this is an absolutely critical issue of form and mechanics.  If you take two identical runners (same physical characteristics and fitness) and runner A has limited hip rotation and runner B runs with relaxed, freely-rotating hips, runner B will have a longer stride without any additional effort required.  A 6 inch longer stride with the same cadence yields a pace difference of 10% for me.  If all I have to do is relax and be conscious of hip rotation to get that extra 10% on my speed, it’s a gift I’ll gladly accept! — mark

Response:

This brings up a further interesting question of where the energy expended in running actually goes: is most of the energy used in generating forward motion (I assume by the calves, hamstrings and glutes) or is the energy involved in pulling the leg itself forward for each new step (with which muscles? the quads, abs and, to an extent, shins?) a significant part of the total energy use. If, as your post suggests, little energy is used in actually moving the leg forward for the next step then any increase in stride length is basically "free" extra speed. Anyway, I think I’ll be seeing if I can do this at all in practice tonight’s fartlek run (always a good session for trying out new things)…

Ok.  This is as good a thread as any to dump this on all of you. A runner moving at steady speed on level ground does no useful work.  His potential energy doesn’t change from one step to the next as long as he doesn’t go up or downhill, and at steady speed, his kinetic energy doesn’t change.  This means his efficiency (the ratio of output power to input power) is zero.  If we’re going to talk about this, we have to use another word, say ‘economy.’ Common sense tells us that he expends energy though, and the rate of expenditure is related to his speed over the ground and the economy of his gait. But what are the mechanics of that expenditure, and what are the elements that contribute to economy?  In the current r.r canon, proper gait has footstrike occurring immediately below the center of gravity and the linkage between center of gravity and the foot contact patch elongating at a rate just enough to maintain the center of gravity at a constant distance from the ground (no head bobbing.)  If we think about the desirability of the leg to act like a wheel with the center of gravity at the axle, we have to say that it’s nothing like a wheel unless we say that we’re going to elongate the spokes to the contact patch somehow to accommodate changing angle. So how does this happen?  The ‘linkage’ includes the pelvis, upper and lower leg bones, ankle and toe.  ’Elongation’ means some combination of rotation of the pelvis as discussed in this thread (moving the push-off hip joint rearward relative to the center of gravity), rotation of the pelvis about the fore-and-aft axis (moving the push-off hip joint down relative the the center of gravity), locking the knee, fully extending the ankle by contracting the hamstring and glute, and finally push-off with the toe. <digression  Some time ago, I think that it was in the triathlon group, there was a discussion about the desirability  of stretching the ankle in extension for runners.  The conclusion was that for runners, it was unnecessary, but for tris, it was desirable because extended ankles made for a more effective kick in the swim.  But if the above linkage model has any validity for runners, too, the members opposing the contraction of the hams and glutes should be as supple as possible. </digression With this motion, energy is expended in the following way.  In the ideal case in which the center of gravity has no up and down motion, the net vertical force on the push-off contact patch must be equal to the runner’s weight.  Isaac says so.  It’s the elongation of the linkage against this vertical force that expends the energy – force times distance, just like in high school physics.  Why does the rate of energy expenditure go up at higher speeds?  Higher speeds mean longer strides, longer strides mean bigger angles for the linkage to work through (it takes zero energy to support the center of gravity as it passes over the contact patch; it takes a rapidly increasing amount as the contact patch moves out behind).  qed. With the completely unscientific guidance of maybe 10 or 15 thousand miles of running with huskies and malamutes, I claim that economy comes from exploiting small motions of large muscle groups, and, at the appropriate times, locked out joints.  Arguably, the canine trot is the most economical way of getting over the countryside (1000 miles in ten days on kibbles and some salmon strips), and, I claim, it’s because they’ve become masters at the strategy.  At the trot, the entire complex action of their forequarters comes from a periodic flick of the shoulders.  Everything else, bones, joints, feet, pads simply fly forward into place and lock out at the instant they are needed.  In the rear quarters, things aren’t quite so simple, but the motion is dominated by the hams and the rump muscles. Dogs have been working on propulsion for a few million years longer than we have, so maybe there’s something to learn from them.  Our hams and glutes might be the most economical muscle groups at extending the linkage, but the large muscles of the torso work too.  I suspect that the least economical groups are the quads and whatever else is required to support the bobbing bent-knee bent-over gait such as the one I use cresting the hill at mile 7. It’s sometimes mentioned (but somehow the idea evidently hasn’t entered the canon) in the ‘cadence’ threads that the preferred (high) cadence is no mistake.  It derives (those contributors say) from the pendulum period of the free swinging leg.  If this be true, then the most economical way for biped to swing the leg forward is to flick that hip joint forward (and maybe up a bit) and wait for the leg to follow through.  No quads, no psoas, no nothing except the small motions of the large muscles of the torso working against the counter rotations of the shoulders and the motion of the arms. So far, I haven’t seen much discussion about whether or not the knee should lock out at this point, but ‘economy’ would certainly argue for it. Advice is usually worth what you pay for it. Fred Klingener Roxbury CT

Response:

| That’s exactly right — the hips rotate more with the legs *AND* allow more | forward/backward leg movement.  By relaxing the hips and allowing them to | rotate more freely with each stride, you are essentially adding length (and | leverage) to your "legs". Sorry, I still don’t get it.  What do you mean by hip rotation?  What I visualize when you say that is the kind of motion in your hips you would need in order to go from sitting with your legs out in front of you to sitting in the lotus position.  That can’t be right, so could you try to describe it again? Zak

Response:

This brings up a further interesting question of where the energy expended in running actually goes: is most of the energy used in generating forward motion (I assume by the calves, hamstrings and glutes) or is the energy involved in pulling the leg itself forward for each new step (with which muscles? the quads, abs and, to an extent, shins?) a significant part of the total energy use. If, as your post suggests, little energy is used in actually moving the leg forward for the next step then any increase in stride length is basically "free" extra speed. Anyway, I think I’ll be seeing if I can do this at all in practice tonight’s fartlek run (always a good session for trying out new things)… — Regards, Barry Running & Stuff: http://homepages.go.com/~barry841

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I getting a little confused by this thread… when you’re talking about ‘opening the hips’, do you mean they rotate more with the legs, or that they allow more forwards/backwards leg movement or something else? Could someone explain further? — Regards, Barry Barry…. That’s exactly right — the hips rotate more with the legs *AND* allow more forward/backward leg movement.  By relaxing the hips and allowing them to rotate more freely with each stride, you are essentially adding length (and leverage) to your "legs".  As Ozzie mentioned above, picture your legs starting at the bottom of your rib cage instead of at your pelvic bone. For me, that’s 10 inches of DESPERATELY NEEDED leg length (short inseam here). This rotation also seems to transfer some of the workload from the leg/hip muscles to the trunk. Seems to me this is an absolutely critical issue of form and mechanics. If you take two identical runners (same physical characteristics and fitness) and runner A has limited hip rotation and runner B runs with relaxed, freely-rotating hips, runner B will have a longer stride without any additional effort required.  A 6 inch longer stride with the same cadence yields a pace difference of 10% for me.  If all I have to do is relax and be conscious of hip rotation to get that extra 10% on my speed, it’s a gift I’ll gladly accept! — mark

Response:

.. Seems to me this is an absolutely critical issue of form and mechanics. If you take two identical runners (same physical characteristics and fitness) and runner A has limited hip rotation and runner B runs with relaxed, freely-rotating hips, runner B will have a longer stride without any additional effort required.

Well, not quite, but the propulsion comes from the large muscle groups of the torso – a net plus. Fred

Response:

I made an interesting observation a few days ago.  (Please ignore any references to my HRM and treadmill — we’ll save those topics for another day.) I typically warm up (or transition from cycling to running) at a 8 minute mile pace for the first 5 minutes.  After a particularly difficult cycling session, my legs felt a little sluggish and I noticed my heart rate was hovering in the high 140s at the end of my 5 minute warm up period.  The run plan for the day called for 45 minutes at 7 minute mile pace.  At the 5 minute mark I increased the pace from 8mm to 7mm.  I felt the usual struggle for a few moments until I found my "groove" and fully adjusted to the new pace.  At the 10 minute point I noticed my heart rate had fallen to 140, which was simply the tangible confirmation of what I had already felt happening.  My stride had lengthened, I was more relaxed, more fluid than I had been at the slower "transition" pace.  And I was actually working LESS while running 1 minute per mile faster. Here’s what I think happened:  I was able to observe my running form in the reflection in the window in front of me.  I noticed that as I increased the pace the first thing I did was to increase my stride frequency…  this only lasted for about 30 seconds before my frequency began to settle back and my stride length began to increase.  At first I felt like I was over-striding. But after another half-minute or so, the new stride felt about right.  I noticed from my reflection that my vertical movement (head bobbing up and down) had become minimal and my hips seemed to be what had given me the increase in stride length.  At the slower pace, my hips remained basically squared to the front.  I could clearly see that my hips had opened up at the faster pace, thereby becoming an extension of my legs which allowed more "reach" without an increase in the effort required to push off. Ever make a similar observation? Does this mean that anyone who never crosses this "hip rotation threshold" pace might have hit an artificial speed barrier, and that simply learning to open their hips could improve their pace — dramatically? — Mark

Response:

I could clearly see that my hips had opened up at the faster pace, thereby becoming an extension of my legs which allowed more "reach" without an increase in the effort required to push off. Ever make a similar observation?

Yes but in a slightly different context. When I used to run competitive 400m’s, I felt warming up my hips so they would open up was my most important preparation for a race. Even now, I try to open them up to run faster without more effort. jack

Response:

I getting a little confused by this thread… when you’re talking about ‘opening the hips’, do you mean they rotate more with the legs, or that they allow more forwards/backwards leg movement or something else? Could someone explain further? — Regards, Barry Running & Stuff: http://homepages.go.com/~barry841

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I could clearly see that my hips had opened up at the faster pace, thereby becoming an extension of my legs which allowed more "reach" without an increase in the effort required to push off. Ever make a similar observation? Yes but in a slightly different context. When I used to run competitive 400m’s, I felt warming up my hips so they would open up was my most important preparation for a race. Even now, I try to open them up to run faster without more effort. jack

Response:

Question:

During my last business trip I realized that PowerBars and Gatorade powder are much cheaper in the U.S. than in Germany, nearly 1/2 , even if FX-rates are so bad (for Europeans). I bought it in a WalMart in Orlando. Are there places where those things are cheaper? What other things do you recommend for fast-nutrition (easy available in U.S., effective, no drugs)? THX Peter Styrumer TV Triathlon, Germany

Response:

During my last business trip I realized that PowerBars and Gatorade powder are much cheaper in the U.S. than in Germany, nearly 1/2 , even if FX-rates are so bad (for Europeans). I bought it in a WalMart in Orlando. Are there places where those things are cheaper?

Yes. Publix supermarkets (a chain in the SouthEast USA) are cheaper than WalMart for the Gatorade powder (I have not compared the PowerBar prices as I don’t like PowerBars). What other things do you recommend for fast-nutrition (easy available in U.S., effective, no drugs)?

GU gels, usually available at sporting good stores. But, why not shop on-line? Tthere are several on-line stores that sell both products at good prices. Nasbar, Performance, and several other sites that are advertised occassionally on RST. You’ll find an assortment of bars, gels and drinks on-line. David / FEY2K IMCAL2000 – 16:53 (remove spaces) at att dot net

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I lucked apon an awesome deal at my favorite US store (Target) a few weeks ago….. they had Gatorade 4 bottle packs (the 32 oz bottles) for $1.79 a pack !!!!! Needless to say my wife was pretty pissed when I showed up at the house with over 70 bottles of Gatorade !!!! But I’ve never seen that kind of deal again… Brian in Charlotte, NC – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – During my last business trip I realized that PowerBars and Gatorade powder are much cheaper in the U.S. than in Germany, nearly 1/2 , even if FX-rates are so bad (for Europeans). I bought it in a WalMart in Orlando. Are there places where those things are cheaper? What other things do you recommend for fast-nutrition (easy available in U.S., effective, no drugs)? THX Peter Styrumer TV Triathlon, Germany

Response:

How about oatmeal?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – During my last business trip I realized that PowerBars and Gatorade powder are much cheaper in the U.S. than in Germany, nearly 1/2 , even if FX-rates are so bad (for Europeans). I bought it in a WalMart in Orlando. Are there places where those things are cheaper? What other things do you recommend for fast-nutrition (easy available in U.S., effective, no drugs)? THX Peter Styrumer TV Triathlon, Germany

Response:

traderjoes.com to see if a store is near to you. hammergel.com or e-caps.com has good quality gel at bulk prices.  Sustained energy is the powdered drink mix. — Kindest Regards, Lee Rudin "My commitment is to do the best I can." Tao lesson. San Francisco Bay Area Triathlon http://home.pacbell.net/leewaysf

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – During my last business trip I realized that PowerBars and Gatorade powder are much cheaper in the U.S. than in Germany, nearly 1/2 , even if FX-rates are so bad (for Europeans). I bought it in a WalMart in Orlando. Are there places where those things are cheaper? What other things do you recommend for fast-nutrition (easy available in U.S., effective, no drugs)? THX Peter Styrumer TV Triathlon, Germany

Response:

If you are interested you can check out my Shaklee business. I began using Shaklee in 2000 on the advice of my coach. These are the best products that I have ever used. They work! I became a distributor so that I could save money because I use a lot of their products. After telling friends and family about them, they tried Shaklee and really liked the products. A lot of people think they use the best product or do not buy Shaklee because it is not on the shelf at the grocery store, but only available through a distributor. All I can say is it works, I wish I had discovered it ten years ago and it is the safest, most tested health products company in existence.

Response:

You should also check out Carb-BOOM energy gel- no additives, its all carbohydrates (mostly complex too ) and man it tastes really good.  My favorite is Strawberry Kiwi and the Apple Cinnamon tastes awesome when it gets warm (like an apple pie).  I used it at IMC this year and it worked great.  They are online at www.carbboom.com mike

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – traderjoes.com to see if a store is near to you. hammergel.com or e-caps.com has good quality gel at bulk prices. Sustained energy is the powdered drink mix. — Kindest Regards, Lee Rudin "My commitment is to do the best I can." Tao lesson. San Francisco Bay Area Triathlon http://home.pacbell.net/leewaysf During my last business trip I realized that PowerBars and Gatorade powder are much cheaper in the U.S. than in Germany, nearly 1/2 , even if FX-rates are so bad (for Europeans). I bought it in a WalMart in Orlando. Are there places where those things are cheaper? What other things do you recommend for fast-nutrition (easy available in U.S., effective, no drugs)? THX Peter Styrumer TV Triathlon, Germany

Response:

the best bars i know and at not expensive. Peter Schroeder schrieb: During my last business trip I realized that PowerBars and Gatorade powder are much cheaper in the U.S. than in Germany, nearly 1/2 , even if FX-rates are so bad (for Europeans). I bought it in a WalMart in Orlando. Are there places where those things are cheaper? What other things do you recommend for fast-nutrition (easy available in U.S., effective, no drugs)? THX Peter Styrumer TV Triathlon, Germany

– Sonia Rothe TU M

Question:

I’m saying that if one of your bones is sticking through your skin (i.e., a compound fracture), then most people would have enough sense to abandon a race and pursue medical treatment. This is opposed to a non-compound fracture, such as a broken hip, where one might get back up off the pavement and try to continue with your leg flopping around… Andrew ("been there – done that") Coggan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You’re saying this about a guy who completed Ironman Hawaii while having to stop repeatedly to wait for his heart to regain the ability to pump blood effectively through his body, a problem that could have resulted in heart failure at any moment? As for the arm injury: I can only repeat what the witnesses said — the bone wasn’t actually poking out of his arm, but they could see a bulge in the arm that was caused by the broken bone’s dislocation. Hadn’t known until now that the bone needs to have punctured the skin for it to be compound, thought only major movement from original location was necessary. But still, it was a pretty severe injury. I found the story to be incredible too, yet I heard it from witnesses on the very day it happened, so I gave it more credibility than I would have had I heard it much later and from a non-witness (er, someone like myself, telling the story years later and who didn’t witness it herself). That’s one reason why I’m asking about it now — I’d really like to know what actually happened.

Before you buy.

Response:

I think the pain of a compound fracture would be minimal compared to the thrashing Welchie would get from his wife, Sian – unless that’s who you were referring to as his girlfriend… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The discussion of the man killed on father’s day during a triathlon when he was hit by a car has put me in mind of an incident at the 1993 Ironman Japan. I was fortunate enough to be living in a dorm next to the swim-bike transition area, and many people from my school were accepted as volunteers for the race. During that race, the male leader (I think it was Greg Welch but don’t really remember) was hit by a car. My friends who saw him in the med tent at the finish said that he had a very obvious compound fracture of the arm — bone clearly out of place. They heard the story from him that he was hit by a car, which broke his arm and crumpled his front wheel. He had been far in front of everyone else. When his girlfriend came by in a bit, he asked her to give him her wheel, which she did. He then finished the race, coming in THIRD, broken arm and all. But he was disqualified for using his girlfriend’s wheel. Anyone remember hearing of this incident? How common is it for an accident such as this to occur during a major triathlon like Ironman Japan? Before you buy.

Response:

You’re saying this about a guy who completed Ironman Hawaii while having to stop repeatedly to wait for his heart to regain the ability to pump blood effectively through his body, a problem that could have resulted in heart failure at any moment? As for the arm injury: I can only repeat what the witnesses said — the bone wasn’t actually poking out of his arm, but they could see a bulge in the arm that was caused by the broken bone’s dislocation. Hadn’t known until now that the bone needs to have punctured the skin for it to be compound, thought only major movement from original location was necessary. But still, it was a pretty severe injury. I found the story to be incredible too, yet I heard it from witnesses on the very day it happened, so I gave it more credibility than I would have had I heard it much later and from a non-witness (er, someone like myself, telling the story years later and who didn’t witness it herself). That’s one reason why I’m asking about it now — I’d really like to know what actually happened. During that race, the male leader (I think it was Greg Welch but don’t really remember) was hit by a car. My friends who saw him in the med tent at the finish said that he had a very obvious compound fracture of the arm — bone clearly out of place. I believe a compound fracture is when the bone penetrates the skin. I doubt that Greg Welch or anybody else would continue to try to race after suffering such an injury. Andrew Coggan

Before you buy.

Response:

The discussion of the man killed on father’s day during a triathlon when he was hit by a car has put me in mind of an incident at the 1993 Ironman Japan. I was fortunate enough to be living in a dorm next to the swim-bike transition area, and many people from my school were accepted as volunteers for the race. During that race, the male leader (I think it was Greg Welch but don’t really remember) was hit by a car. My friends who saw him in the med tent at the finish said that he had a very obvious compound fracture of the arm — bone clearly out of place. They heard the story from him that he was hit by a car, which broke his arm and crumpled his front wheel. He had been far in front of everyone else. When his girlfriend came by in a bit, he asked her to give him her wheel, which she did. He then finished the race, coming in THIRD, broken arm and all. But he was disqualified for using his girlfriend’s wheel. Anyone remember hearing of this incident? How common is it for an accident such as this to occur during a major triathlon like Ironman Japan? Before you buy.

Response:

During IMC ‘93 as we were just leaving Main street into the residential area headed south I saw an old lady walking a small dog. She decided to let it go from its leash just as a group of riders, including me, went past. The dog ran straight after one of the bikes, the guy behind hit it real hard. The old lady then screamed causing a car driving in front of the pack to break.another rider hit the back of the car and one skidded off the side of the car and also crashed. I was over on the oppsoite of the road by then. I believe one guy broke his wrist and another continued with a minor injuries. Lloyd

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The discussion of the man killed on father’s day during a triathlon when he was hit by a car has put me in mind of an incident at the 1993 Ironman Japan. I was fortunate enough to be living in a dorm next to the swim-bike transition area, and many people from my school were accepted as volunteers for the race. During that race, the male leader (I think it was Greg Welch but don’t really remember) was hit by a car. My friends who saw him in the med tent at the finish said that he had a very obvious compound fracture of the arm — bone clearly out of place. They heard the story from him that he was hit by a car, which broke his arm and crumpled his front wheel. He had been far in front of everyone else. When his girlfriend came by in a bit, he asked her to give him her wheel, which she did. He then finished the race, coming in THIRD, broken arm and all. But he was disqualified for using his girlfriend’s wheel. Anyone remember hearing of this incident? How common is it for an accident such as this to occur during a major triathlon like Ironman Japan? Before you buy.

Response:

i’ve been in 2 races where a car-bike accident happened.  the first was the orange county mazda race where jim mclaren was hit–93 or 94.   the other was worlds in cleveland in 96.   a driver apparently got tired of waiting to cross, behind a policeman (with his arms stretched out, i think) so pulled around him & went across anyway.   of course, a triathlete was coming along—-i think it was a canadian woman.  fortunately she wasn’t badly hurt.     peggy

Response:

During that race, the male leader (I think it was Greg Welch but don’t really remember) was hit by a car. My friends who saw him in the med tent at the finish said that he had a very obvious compound fracture of the arm — bone clearly out of place.

I believe a compound fracture is when the bone penetrates the skin. I doubt that Greg Welch or anybody else would continue to try to race after suffering such an injury. Andrew Coggan

Response:

During that race, the male leader (I think it was Greg Welch but don’t really remember) was hit by a car. My friends who saw him in the med tent at the finish said that he had a very obvious compound fracture of the arm — bone clearly out of place. I believe a compound fracture is when the bone penetrates the skin. I doubt that Greg Welch or anybody else would continue to try to race after suffering such an injury. Andrew Coggan

It is.  The complication with a compound fracture is the risk of infection. Tim "expert on both compound and normal fractures" C.

Response:

And extreme pain, this sounds difficult to believe. Bill Howard

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – During that race, the male leader (I think it was Greg Welch but don’t really remember) was hit by a car. My friends who saw him in the med tent at the finish said that he had a very obvious compound fracture of the arm — bone clearly out of place. I believe a compound fracture is when the bone penetrates the skin. I doubt that Greg Welch or anybody else would continue to try to race after suffering such an injury. Andrew Coggan It is.  The complication with a compound fracture is the risk of infection. Tim "expert on both compound and normal fractures" C.

Response:

Question:

Jensen) writes: Russell, You must be referring to a specific brand(s) of stationary bikes – I’m guessing Cybex, since that was the last brand used by the indoor series around Chicago.  Not all stationary bikes are this biased.  The Windracer is one I can think of that seems to be most fair and most consistant between bikes (vs Cybex, where on one bike I could pedal at 30mph and another only 22mph at the same effort).

Does it compensate for weight and frontal area — two key elements of cycling performance outdoors? JT

Response:

Indoor triathlons suffer greatly because the bike leg is ridiculous. The riders have 20 minutes to go as far as possible.  The problem is that the device (some call it a stationary bike)  has a maximum velocity that is determined by power input.  The way to achieve the most distance is to pedal at 60 rpm in the highest setting.  This makes it look like a stair stepper event.  Light people, particularly female competitors suffer greatly here.  I’ve seen 250 lbs. overweight men ride farther than my wife 110 lbs. during these races.  If we placed them outside on their own bicycles my wife would demolish them.

Response:

Russell, You must be referring to a specific brand(s) of stationary bikes – I’m guessing Cybex, since that was the last brand used by the indoor series around Chicago.  Not all stationary bikes are this biased.  The Windracer is one I can think of that seems to be most fair and most consistant between bikes (vs Cybex, where on one bike I could pedal at 30mph and another only 22mph at the same effort). Of course, Lauren and I have both been outridden indoors by plenty of people we normally would outride outdoors … it’s different, especially with the rest between the swim and bike and the short duration compared to outdoor races.   I never tried to gauge my cycling fitness too much on stationary bikes unless I use the same one day after day. Todd Jensen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Indoor triathlons suffer greatly because the bike leg is ridiculous. The riders have 20 minutes to go as far as possible.  The problem is that the device (some call it a stationary bike)  has a maximum velocity that is determined by power input.  The way to achieve the most distance is to pedal at 60 rpm in the highest setting.  This makes it look like a stair stepper event.  Light people, particularly female competitors suffer greatly here.  I’ve seen 250 lbs. overweight men ride farther than my wife 110 lbs. during these races.  If we placed them outside on their own bicycles my wife would demolish them.

Response:

Question:

I sweat heavily and on  runs over 45-60 minutes in any kind of humidity my socks and shoes are soaked through. They get real unconfortable after another 30 minutes or so – even when I stop and wring them out. Any suggestions on shoes / socks / ankle bands (??) to minimize the problems? I’m a "heavy runner" at 6′2 and 190 lbs, mild pronation and I’m trying to work up to marathon distances. Thanks… John Jerrim CTS, Inc.      

Wool blend socks? I love ‘em even on the hottest days. They won’t make you sweat less, but if I’m not mistaken, they’ll at least wick it away from your skin. TC

Response:

It reminds me of something I read a few  years ago about an experiment conducted (in England, amongst college student, as I recall) to measure the actual volume of perspiration ‘produced’ by the feet.  More than one would think; the equivalent of a Coke can full of the stuff on a long run… Enough to overwhelm almost any sock!  I have the same problem & my Thorlo socks are just so-so in terms of absorbing and wicking away perspiration.  I may try the Ultimax brand mentioned by a previous poster. Bert Houston

Response:

Thanks Dave – I’ll give them a try… john – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – John, I’ve found a similar problem. In addition I hate socks with seams. The best solution I’ve found so far is Ultimax Triathlete Ultra-Lite socks. They are very thin, almost no seams and  the breathy exceptionally well. Can’t recommend them highly enough. Dave I sweat heavily and on  runs over 45-60 minutes in any kind of humidity my socks and shoes are soaked through. They get real unconfortable after another 30 minutes or so – even when I stop and wring them out. Any suggestions on shoes / socks / ankle bands (??) to minimize the problems? I’m a "heavy runner" at 6′2 and 190 lbs, mild pronation and I’m trying to work up to marathon distances. Thanks… John Jerrim CTS, Inc. Diagnostic Products for Modem, Com Port & IRQ Problems www.comminfo.com

John Jerrim CTS, Inc.       Diagnostic Products for Modem, Com Port & IRQ Problems www.comminfo.com

Response:

If you can’t lick the persperation problem why not plan on changing shoes and socks after the first 10-15 miles?  You can combine the swap with a watering stop.  Just a thought.

Response:

I sweat heavily and on  runs over 45-60 minutes in any kind of humidity my socks and shoes are soaked through. They get real unconfortable after another 30 minutes or so – even when I stop and wring them out. Any suggestions on shoes / socks / ankle bands (??) to minimize the problems? I’m a "heavy runner" at 6′2 and 190 lbs, mild pronation and I’m trying to work up to marathon distances.

Like yourself, I sweat pretty hard and just after a short running time.  After 60 minutes, my shoes are actually sloshing.   I think Andreas advice about Coolmax is good.  I wear Coolmax socks and have found them to be a little easier on the feet.  I still sweat as much and my shoes get soaked, but I think the Coolmax keeps the water away from the skin better.  The other day I could not find a clean pair so did a long run in regular cotton.  I’m here in north Texas, so talk about humidity and good sweating weather.  Anyway, after running and getting drenched, I found that I had slight chafing on the tops of both feet that I attribute to the abrasiveness of those wet cotton socks.   PS. I like Coolmax, but you have to either wring them out with soap and water when done or put them somewhere far from any human noses until wash day.  It must be the material, but they really "hold" an odor.  Haven’t noticed it near as bad with the cottons.  But I have one cat that sure loves the smell of them. : ) Rick B. (Do not use your Reply button) (Send e-mail to:rberkobiAT/metronetDOT/com)

Response:

I sweat heavily and on  runs over 45-60 minutes in any kind of humidity my socks and shoes are soaked through. They get real unconfortable after another 30 minutes or so – even when I stop and wring them out. Any suggestions on shoes / socks / ankle bands (??) to minimize the problems? I’m a "heavy runner" at 6′2 and 190 lbs, mild pronation and I’m trying to work up to marathon distances.

Don’t use cotton or acrylic socks. Instead, go for a wicking material, such as polyproplylen or one of the many polyester types. Try thin socks. Andreas

Response:

I sweat heavily and on  runs over 45-60 minutes in any kind of humidity my socks and shoes are soaked through. They get real unconfortable after another 30 minutes or so – even when I stop and wring them out. Any suggestions on shoes / socks / ankle bands (??) to minimize the problems? I’m a "heavy runner" at 6′2 and 190 lbs, mild pronation and I’m trying to work up to marathon distances. Thanks… John Jerrim CTS, Inc.       Diagnostic Products for Modem, Com Port & IRQ Problems www.comminfo.com

Response:

John, I’ve found a similar problem. In addition I hate socks with seams. The best solution I’ve found so far is Ultimax Triathlete Ultra-Lite socks. They are very thin, almost no seams and  the breathy exceptionally well. Can’t recommend them highly enough. Dave

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I sweat heavily and on  runs over 45-60 minutes in any kind of humidity my socks and shoes are soaked through. They get real unconfortable after another 30 minutes or so – even when I stop and wring them out. Any suggestions on shoes / socks / ankle bands (??) to minimize the problems? I’m a "heavy runner" at 6′2 and 190 lbs, mild pronation and I’m trying to work up to marathon distances. Thanks… John Jerrim CTS, Inc. Diagnostic Products for Modem, Com Port & IRQ Problems www.comminfo.com

Response:

Question:

I do triathlons and marathons.  This summer I cut way back on my training to try to help my pregnancy chances.  The problem is that if I don’t run, I feel like hell, and when I don’t get pregnant and I don’t run, I feel homicidal. So, this month I decided to just try my regular routine to see what happens.

Response:

Hi fellow runners/excercise people! I have been running about 4 miles a day, but no races.  However, I do also vary my workout by running some days and doing the health club the next day. My RE told me that you can run during treatment as long as you don’t go overboard. I too HATE that bloat feeling…makes me want to double up on the exercise. But I refrain and simply try to keep to a reasonable 40-50 minute workout, which also does include swimming. Moderation is the key… Nancy

Response:

Hi!!

Response:

Hi,                                                                                                                    I am somewhat new to this group, but not to the fertility game!  I am 38 yrs, my DH (is that right?) is 43. We tried on our own for a year with no luck. Started all the testing (HSG, Lap,sperm, etc). Seems everything is OK except for low motility problem.                                                                               Decide to start with IUI.  Did it naturally the 1st cycle, clomid/profasi for cycle 2 and 3.  No luck. Just finished my 1st cycle of follistim/HCG and did the IUI this past Thursday.  Which brings me to my search for fellow runners.  Up to this point I have been able to pretty much maintian my routine, including races on the weekend, up until now.  I was preparing for a triathlon but was told to discontinue by my RE (is that right?) during this cycle of follistim as the ovaries were likely to enlarge do to the super-stimulation.  He was right.  Since the HCG shot I fell like bloat-belly!! And there is pressure in that area–slight discomfort. So, I have been swimming to keep me going.  Anyone else making changes to their routine due to treatment??? I know I will have to make major changes of I am successful and achieve a pregnancy, just looking for kindred spirits!!!!                                          Thanks, Bobbi

Response:

Question:

        Anyone know if and/or where the results are posted for         the Bay State Triathlon held on Sunday, Aug. 23?         Thanks in advance … — Mike T.

Response:

   Anyone know if and/or where the results are posted for    the Bay State Triathlon held on Sunday, Aug. 23?    Thanks in advance … — Mike T.

The results will be posted tomorrow (8/26/98) or Thursday at: http://www.timeoutproductions.com/ Alan Sheridan

Response:

   Anyone know if and/or where the results are posted for    the Bay State Triathlon held on Sunday, Aug. 23?    Thanks in advance … — Mike T.

Mike,    Check out www.timeoutproductions.com later in the day on wednesday and the results should be there.  They used to post them on www.coolrunning.com but I havent seen many of the new england triathlon tour results there lately. By the way, did you race??  How did you like it??  I did it and liked it a lot.  Well, right up until the last mile or so.  I’m going to try and post a race report a bit later.   See ya in Hyannis,       Bob Vetal.

Response:

   Anyone know if and/or where the results are posted for    the Bay State Triathlon held on Sunday, Aug. 23?    Thanks in advance … — Mike T.

Tri Coolrunning.com

Response:

They are now up on www.timeoutproductions.com    Bob Vetal.       Anyone know if and/or where the results are posted for       the Bay State Triathlon held on Sunday, Aug. 23?       Thanks in advance … — Mike T. Tri Coolrunning.com

Response:

Question:

FYI, 1998 IronKids Bread Triathlon Series for youth age 7 to 14 will expand to six races during the 1998 season. These events will be held in: Wichita ,KS     May 9-10 Atlanta, GA     June 13-14 Memphis, TN     TBA Denver, CO      TBA Sacramento, CA  TBA San Antonio, TX Sept 5-6 IronKids Bread Triathlon National Championship All events are sanctioned by USAT and USAT regional and national championship status has been applied for. ESPN will carry the 1997 IronKids Bread Triathlon National Championship Dallas, TX on December 24, 1997 at 2PM Eastern time. For more information, contact: * Event Technical Services, Inc.   *

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – FYI, 1998 IronKids Bread Triathlon Series for youth age 7 to 14 will expand to six races during the 1998 season. These events will be held in: Wichita ,KS     May 9-10 Atlanta, GA     June 13-14 Memphis, TN     TBA Denver, CO      TBA Sacramento, CA  TBA San Antonio, TX Sept 5-6 IronKids Bread Triathlon National Championship All events are sanctioned by USAT and USAT regional and national championship status has been applied for. ESPN will carry the 1997 IronKids Bread Triathlon National Championship Dallas, TX on December 24, 1997 at 2PM Eastern time. For more information, contact: * Event Technical Services, Inc.   *

Thanks for the info on next years Ironkids. Tell everyone I hope to see them in September. That is unless my dad finds out I am on the computer this late. Forget I said anything!!! Hi Luann, Hi Jill hope you can keep a secret:-). Do you think he knows how to work his computer?? If you see this post dad, Tiffany did it..   Ironkid— D.J. Mosiniak

Response:

Question:

If your seatpost even flexes at all, it won’t do much for ride comfort. Is this statement based on demostrable fact or merely opinion?

If you feel the need to demonstrate the obvious, go ahead.  Seatposts don’t flex vertically.  Even an angled one with a lot of fore-and-aft movement isn’t moving up and down much.  Your seat itself, your tires, and even your flesh are absorbing a lot more force than your seatpost. How can getting "behind the pedals" help the legs absorb shock?  With this logic a recumbent rider can absorb a *lot* of road shock with their legs, something that is clearly not the case.

That’s a ridiculous analogy. The biomechanics of this are too complicated to explain here and now.  Maybe some other time. Opinons about bike fit are like ears: everyone’s got a couple.

The mechanics of bike fit are well understood, and the knowledge is successfully used by good bike designers. Matt O.

Response:

If you feel the need to demonstrate the obvious, go ahead.  Seatposts don’t flex vertically.  Even an angled one with a lot of fore-and-aft movement isn’t moving up and down much.  Your seat itself, your tires, and even your flesh are absorbing a lot more force than your seatpost.

Point conceded. How can getting "behind the pedals" help the legs absorb shock?  With this logic a recumbent rider can absorb a *lot* of road shock with their legs, something that is clearly not the case. That’s a ridiculous analogy.

Why?  I’m simply taking your argument to the extreme. The biomechanics of this are too complicated to explain here and now.  Maybe some other time.

Sound like a cop out, Matt.  Could you at least provide some references?   Opinons about bike fit are like ears: everyone’s got a couple. The mechanics of bike fit are well understood, and the knowledge is successfully used by good bike designers.

GMAB.  Perhaps you can tell me what biomechanical work went into KOPS recommendation or why there is such a thing as "revisionist frame sizing" or why Gary Klein has his own unique sizing recommendation. What is universally agreed upon is there is nothing universally agreed upon.   Matt O.

Mark

Response:

Seat tube angle is usually 73 degrees or less for people riding around others. Steeper angles than that begin to compromise your agility on the bike, because your arms have to bear too much weight when you stand.

Huh?  When you stand? Triathlon bikes are generally steeper, some up to 78 degrees, and track bikes are often 75 degrees.

This is to get god aero positoning on a tri bike, and good aero and spinning position on a track bike. But unless you are specialized as such, you will be within about 1 degree of 73 degrees.

Yes.  It should also be pointed out that the range of adjustment of most seatposts will make as big a difference in rider position as the seat tube angle.  If you factor in that seatposts are available with different amounts of setback, you’ll see that seapost angle makes even less difference.  However, it may need to be taken into account with other measurements, like top tube length, for a perfect fit. The head tube angle largely determines the front wheel trail,or caster. Most forks only come with one fork offset (45 mm for off-road), thus the only variable for adjusting trail is head angle, or getting a custom fork. There is a fairly significant difference between an MTB fork with 45 mm offset on a 73.5 degree head angle bike and a 71 degree head angle bike. I just made this change, and 71 degrees is a lot more stable and less twitchy. But as far as I figure, head angle is only important in how it interacts with fork offset to produce trail.

This is true.  Head angle itself does matter, but much less than its effect on trail.   I had an old rigid mountain bike with a 69 or 70 deg head angle.  It was still a twitchy bike because it had a really big fork offset, over 2".  When people jack their front ends up with tall suspension forks, the resulting slow steering comes from too much trail, not the slack head angle.  This is one reason AMP made their forks with more offset than RS or Manitou.  AMP forks were taller, and that had to be compensated for, unless the frame was designed for them to begin with. Well, the further the front wheel contact patch falls behindthe axis of the head tube, the more stable the front end becomes, and the slower the bike will turn. 73-74 degrees is a fast turning twitchy bike, while 69 degrees is a veritable slug around turns, but very stable.

Not necessarily.  I’ve ridden a couple of sweet handling bikes with less than 70 deg head angles.  No single measurement can be taken out of context.  It’s the combination that counts.  A slack angled bike with a short front center, and healthy fork offset, will still handle quickly. Most people only consider this relevant for fitting your torso, butothers figure differently. Among others, Eddie Merckx used to suggest a longer top tube and a shorter stem as a way to a nicer ride. The wheelbase is longer, but the front end steering is the same. Most riders find it more comfortable without much if any noticeable decrease in handling. Gary Fisher began to use the same concept this year and called it ‘Genesis’ geometry like he invented it. I had already spec’d a bike with the same geometry for the same reason – it is a more comfortable ride. The longer wheel base offers more filtering of the road underneath the bike.

A longer wheelbase is more comfortable, but more weight on the saddle and the rear wheel can make for a harsher ride.  Less weight on the front wheel of a mountain bike means washouts in tight singletrack. Matt O.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     head tube angle The head tube angle largely determines the front wheel trail,or caster. Most forks only come with one fork offset (45 mm for off-road), thus the only variable for adjusting trail is head angle, or getting a custom fork. There is a fairly significant difference between an MTB fork with 45 mm offset on a 73.5 degree head angle bike and a 71 degree head angle bike. I just made this change, and 71 degrees is a lot more stable and less twitchy. But as far as I figure, head angle is only important in how it interacts with fork offset to produce trail. top tube length Most people only consider this relevant for fitting your torso, butothers figure differently. Among others, Eddie Merckx used to suggest a longer top tube and a shorter stem as a way to a nicer ride. The wheelbase is longer, but the front end steering is the same. Most riders find it more comfortable without much if any noticeable decrease in handling. Gary Fisher began to use the same concept this year and called it ‘Genesis’ geometry like he invented it. I had already spec’d a bike with the same geometry for the same reason – it is a more comfortable ride. The longer wheel base offers more filtering of the road underneath the bike.

        I find that the head angle, top tube & stem dimensions do come into play in how the bike handles in more extreme terrain.  The head angle not only affects trail, but it also affects the front-center (distance from BB to front axle) and wheelbase.  Front-center is of course also very closely related to top tube length.  Bikes with a short front-centers are less stable on very steep downhills, as it overloads the front wheel.  On the other hand, on very tight and twisty trails, or trails that require a lot of manuevering, a long front-center can make the steering much slower.  In addition, a bike with a long stem can make very sharp (low speed) turns more awkward, as the bars must be swung wider for the same steering angle. Mark McMaster

Response:

    Just purchased an MTB for my son. Standing it next to mine, it     was clear that the frame, although nearly the same size, was     shaped differently. Most noticeable was that the seat and head     tubes were closer to vertical. Measurement of most dimensions     seemed fairly close except that the top tube on my bike was     about 1" longer.     I know that different bikes have different geometry. But except     for "short chain stays help climbing" I don’t recall seeing     any general descriptions of how aspects of frame geometry affect     bike handling and feel. The things I’m curious about are:     seat tube angle

Seat tube angle is usually 73 degrees or less for people riding around others. Steeper angles than that begin to compromise your agility on the bike, because your arms have to bear too much weight when you stand. Triathlon bikes are generally steeper, some up to 78 degrees, and track bikes are often 75 degrees. But unless you are specialized as such, you will be within about 1 degree of 73 degrees.     head tube angle

The head tube angle largely determines the front wheel trail,or caster. Most forks only come with one fork offset (45 mm for off-road), thus the only variable for adjusting trail is head angle, or getting a custom fork. There is a fairly significant difference between an MTB fork with 45 mm offset on a 73.5 degree head angle bike and a 71 degree head angle bike. I just made this change, and 71 degrees is a lot more stable and less twitchy. But as far as I figure, head angle is only important in how it interacts with fork offset to produce trail.     front wheel caster (Think that’s what it’s called. The distance         between the centerline of the head tube and the center of         the front axle, and I’d guess the head tube angle figures         into this also…)

Well, the further the front wheel contact patch falls behindthe axis of the head tube, the more stable the front end becomes, and the slower the bike will turn. 73-74 degrees is a fast turning twitchy bike, while 69 degrees is a veritable slug around turns, but very stable. top tube length

Most people only consider this relevant for fitting your torso, butothers figure differently. Among others, Eddie Merckx used to suggest a longer top tube and a shorter stem as a way to a nicer ride. The wheelbase is longer, but the front end steering is the same. Most riders find it more comfortable without much if any noticeable decrease in handling. Gary Fisher began to use the same concept this year and called it ‘Genesis’ geometry like he invented it. I had already spec’d a bike with the same geometry for the same reason – it is a more comfortable ride. The longer wheel base offers more filtering of the road underneath the bike. wodeman

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The general consensus is that the shallower the seat tube, the more comfortable the ride.  IMO, this is partly due the increased flex of the seatpost partly because the longer chainstays, which must be used to maintain proper weight distribution, reduce the severity of the bumps.

If your seatpost even flexes at all, it won’t do much for ride comfort.  The main effect of a slack seat tube on a mountain bike is that it puts the rider more behind the pedals, a better position from which to absorb bumps with the legs while pedaling. A bike with a slack seat tube angle can also have really short chainstays.  Rhygin frames are one example of this. Top tube length increases the wheelbase which does affect handling, but IMO should be selected based on your particular physiology, not its affect on handling.

A longer top tube can be offset by a slacker seat tube angle.  The real measurement to be concerned with is front center, the horizontal distance between the bottom bracket and the front wheel’s axle/contact patch.  This measurement isn’t usually given, but a quick look at the other measurements is enough to figure the difference between two bikes’ front centers. Matt O.

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        Steeper seat tubes put more weight over the front of the bike, and are generally used in times when power is essential (typical time trial bikes and track bikes have very steep seat tubes).  As far as comfort goes, though, steeper seat tubes will really be noticeable in how much of a beating you are taking.

I was under the impression that steep seat tubes are used in applications where aerodynamics are paramount (i.e. time trials), because it facilitates a flat back position without extreme upper/lower body angles.   Bottom bracket height- lower BB’s generally mean a more stable ride.  Bikes with high BB’s (trials bikes, cyclocross, criterium bikes) tend to be less stable at speed but quicker handling.

I agree with you in theory, but I think BB height is less of a factor than we’re led to believe.  The difference between a "euro" road racing and cyclcross frame is a whopping 3/4".  For me, that’s less than a 2% increase in CG.  IMO, steering geometry has a much larger influence on the handling of different types of bikes. Mark

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SO can any of you suggest a good reference for frame designs?  I am looking to build a few bikes and haven’t been able to find anything with comprehensive design explanations.  Any help would be appreciated. thanx, Chris Johannsen ". . . it surrounds us and penetrates us; it binds the galaxy together."

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Barta) writes:    Just purchased an MTB for my son. Standing it next to mine, it    was clear that the frame, although nearly the same size, was    shaped differently. Most noticeable was that the seat and head    tubes were closer to vertical. Measurement of most dimensions    seemed fairly close except that the top tube on my bike was    about 1" longer.    I know that different bikes have different geometry. But except    for "short chain stays help climbing" I don’t recall seeing    any general descriptions of how aspects of frame geometry affect    bike handling and feel. The things I’m curious about are:    seat tube angle    Steeper seat tubes put more weight over the front of the bike, and are generally used in times when power is essential (typical time trial bikes and track bikes have very steep seat tubes).  As far as comfort goes, though, steeper seat tubes will really be noticeable in how much of a beating you are taking.

Not necessarily.  It’s true that if you have a shallow seat tube angle, your legs are in a better position to absorb bumps while also pedaling.  However, if you’re leaned forward far enough, with a low and/or long stem, your arms will take more of your weight, and you won’t feel the bumps under your butt as much, no matter what the seat tube angle is.  Plus, more weight on your arms, and on the front wheel, means your suspension fork is doing more of the work.    head tube angle    As a rule of thumb, steeper head tubes make for quicker steering. A laid back head tube is sluggish on singletrack, but is fairly stable, so is nice at high speeds (touring road bikes and downhill bikes tend to have laid-back head tubes).

A shallow head angle coupled with a short top tube/front center can also make for a quick steering bike.    front wheel caster (Think that’s what it’s called. The distance       between the centerline of the head tube and the center of       the front axle, and I’d guess the head tube angle figures       into this also…) top tube length

Caster is the same thing as the head tube angle, comparing autos to bikes. This is generally called "trail".  Typical trail for a MTB is around 3 inches or so.  Anything less makes the front wheel quite squirmy and holding a straight line is nearly impossible.  Some other factors:

Trail is trail, no matter how you look at it. Wheelbase- distance between center of front hub and center of rear parallel to ground.  LOnger wheelbase lends greater stability and less maneuverability. The common tradeoff for a good singletrack, technical bike is squirrely handling but great manueverability.

Not necessarily.  Rider dimensions vary a lot more than bike dimensions, and bikes can be both quick and stable, or sluggish and squirrely, depending on a combination of design factors, as well as how that bike fits a particular rider.  If you ride a lot of bikes, you’ll see that the crap you read in magazines about this is just that:  crap.  A lot of the time, their measurements don’t even add up, if you bothered to work them out.  Quoting their measurements, they’ll say a bike is short, steep, and quick, when it’s really dead average, dimension-wise.  They also often gather riding impressions that are the exact opposite of what the measurements would imply. Mostly, they don’t know what they’re talking about, and even if their observations are correct, they’re greatly exaggerated, in the interest of having something to write about. Bottom bracket height- lower BB’s generally mean a more stable ride.  Bikes with high BB’s (trials bikes, cyclocross, criterium bikes) tend to be less stable at speed but quicker handling.

Taken alone, this measurement, like any other, is meaningless.  The range of common measurements here is pretty small, too, and I doubt it has much effect on anything anyway. Length of stem- more maneuverability at shorter lengths.  

Baloney, for reasonable stem lengths.  More important (with a mountain bike) is the stem’s effect on weight distribution.  A short stem can mean not enough weight on the front wheel, causing it to drift and wash out. Of course, these are all generalizations.  

Yes, they are, and out of context, perhaps inaccurate.    Opinions?

You just got them.    Facts?

I think so. Matt O.

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   Just purchased an MTB for my son. Standing it next to mine, it    was clear that the frame, although nearly the same size, was    shaped differently. Most noticeable was that the seat and head    tubes were closer to vertical. Measurement of most dimensions    seemed fairly close except that the top tube on my bike was    about 1" longer.    I know that different bikes have different geometry. But except    for "short chain stays help climbing" I don’t recall seeing    any general descriptions of how aspects of frame geometry affect    bike handling and feel. The things I’m curious about are:    seat tube angle

        Steeper seat tubes put more weight over the front of the bike, and are generally used in times when power is essential (typical time trial bikes and track bikes have very steep seat tubes).  As far as comfort goes, though, steeper seat tubes will really be noticeable in how much of a beating you are taking.    head tube angle

        As a rule of thumb, steeper head tubes make for quicker steering.  A laid back head tube is sluggish on singletrack, but is fairly stable, so is nice at high speeds (touring road bikes and downhill bikes tend to have laid-back head tubes).    front wheel caster (Think that’s what it’s called. The distance    between the centerline of the head tube and the center of    the front axle, and I’d guess the head tube angle figures    into this also…) top tube length

This is generally called "trail".  Typical trail for a MTB is around 3 inches or so.  Anything less makes the front wheel quite squirmy and holding a straight line is nearly impossible.  Some other factors: Wheelbase- distance between center of front hub and center of rear parallel to ground.  LOnger wheelbase lends greater stability and less maneuverability. The common tradeoff for a good singletrack, technical bike is squirrely handling but great manueverability. Bottom bracket height- lower BB’s generally mean a more stable ride.  Bikes with high BB’s (trials bikes, cyclocross, criterium bikes) tend to be less stable at speed but quicker handling. Length of stem- more maneuverability at shorter lengths.   Of course, these are all generalizations.  Steve – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –    Opinions?    Facts?    Comparisons?    (I’ll bet Sheldon "I know my geometry" Brown might know something    about this    regards,    hank — Hank Barta                              White Oak Software Inc.            Beautiful Sunny Winfield, Illinois

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    Just purchased an MTB for my son. Standing it next to mine, it     was clear that the frame, although nearly the same size, was     shaped differently. Most noticeable was that the seat and head     tubes were closer to vertical. Measurement of most dimensions     seemed fairly close except that the top tube on my bike was     about 1" longer.     I know that different bikes have different geometry. But except     for "short chain stays help climbing" I don’t recall seeing     any general descriptions of how aspects of frame geometry affect     bike handling and feel. The things I’m curious about are:     seat tube angle     head tube angle     front wheel caster (Think that’s what it’s called. The distance         between the centerline of the head tube and the center of         the front axle, and I’d guess the head tube angle figures         into this also…) top tube length     Opinions?     Facts?     Comparisons?     (I’ll bet Sheldon "I know my geometry" Brown might know something     about this     regards,     hank — Hank Barta                              White Oak Software Inc.                 Beautiful Sunny Winfield, Illinois

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Question:

Is anyone going to this tri on 8/17?  I’m curious about the course and also just where in NC that is.  I’ll be coming from Winston-Salem. Thanks for any info. Drew

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Is anyone going to this tri on 8/17?  I’m curious about the course and also just where in NC that is.  I’ll be coming from Winston-Salem. Thanks for any info. Drew

That’s not one on my list. If anyone would know, it would be InsideOut Sports in Raleigh (919-755-6202). I’ll be at the duathlon in Cary the day before. David

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I just looked it up again.  I had the place wrong.  Triathlete mag has it in Morrisville. Thanks for the contact though. Drew

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