Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Get in really close to the other swimmer, then as you roll to make a stroke with your right hand and breath on your left, just keep on rolling until you are on your back and then make a backstoke stroke with your left hand, keep rolling until you are back on your front. You will now find that you are on the other side of the swimmer. The other swimmer possibly won’t even notice you go over.  There is a possibility that you may get kicked!  But the kick will be in the backside and I’ve never been hurt.  (Fat bum?) You can do this with anyone who swims across your line – I’ve done it in races multiple times to the same person who has zig-zagged across my path.  Speaking to them after the race, they didn’t even know it had happened! You can also use this for rounding buoys, I frequently gain a couple metres on someone doing it, and while your are rolling over, you can get a peek at the (few) people behind you.  I wouldn’t recommend it unless there is fairly clear water around the buoy, as there often is down at the back of the pack.

This has got to be the strangest triathlon-tip in the history of weird-and-wonderful advice! I can’t wait to try it… — Atlas Online                Tel: +44 20 8202 2433 154 Brent Street,           FAX: +44 20 8202 2287 London, NW4 2DR, ENGLAND.   WWW: http://www.zands.com

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You should also develop an extra skill of rolling over the other person, if they do decide to go off on a tangent.  This is also a fun thing to practice in a group swim. I’d appreciate it if you could explain this. -harold

A lot easier to demonstrate than to explain, but here goes … Imagine that you are swimming on the left hip of someone and he starts to push you to the left of the course.  You want to get across to the right hand side of the person without slowing down and waiting to duck round behind. Get in really close to the other swimmer, then as you roll to make a stroke with your right hand and breath on your left, just keep on rolling until you are on your back and then make a backstoke stroke with your left hand, keep rolling until you are back on your front. You will now find that you are on the other side of the swimmer. The other swimmer possibly won’t even notice you go over.  There is a possibility that you may get kicked!  But the kick will be in the backside and I’ve never been hurt.  (Fat bum?) You can do this with anyone who swims across your line – I’ve done it in races multiple times to the same person who has zig-zagged across my path.  Speaking to them after the race, they didn’t even know it had happened! You can also use this for rounding buoys, I frequently gain a couple metres on someone doing it, and while your are rolling over, you can get a peek at the (few) people behind you.  I wouldn’t recommend it unless there is fairly clear water around the buoy, as there often is down at the back of the pack. Cheers Jeff — Jeff Cook At work: Phone: +64-9-424 5388 At home: Phone: +64-9-424 0336

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Imagine that you are swimming on the left hip of someone and he starts to push you to the left of the course.  You want to get across to the right hand side of the person without slowing down and waiting to duck round behind. Get in really close to the other swimmer, then as you roll to make a stroke with your right hand and breath on your left, just keep on rolling until you are on your back and then make a backstoke stroke with your left hand, keep rolling until you are back on your front. You will now find that you are on the other side of the swimmer. The other swimmer possibly won’t even notice you go over.  There is a possibility that you may get kicked!  But the kick will be in the backside and I’ve never been hurt.  (Fat bum?)

Once I used a "pick" during an open water swim, like in basketball. It was the end of a mile swim, and I was passing some guy. He saw me passing and sped up. We were swimming stroke for stroke, and I was pretty tired. I really didn’t want to have to beat him in a sprint up the beach. So I noticed a buoy–not part of the race course–floating about 35 yards ahead, and I steered toward it, forcing him to come with me or go around (if he’d known about this "rolling over" technique he’d have been fine). He wasn’t landmarking, just staying with me. I forced him to swim straight into the buoy. By the time he figured out what had happened and started swimming again, I had about 2 body lengths on him. God, I love outsmarting people in races. I’m not very fast, so I have to settle for that. -Harold

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While I have found drafting directly behind a lead swimmer does make it much easier, I’ve read that one really wants to swim "on the hip" of a lead swimmer. I’ve never tried the hip thing… anyone have an opinion? (stupid question ) — anyone have any facts? Wim

Can’t offer "facts", but … In our regular club openwater swims (twice a week during the summer), being a velocity challenged swimmer, I often grab the chance to practice drafting.  I find that "on the hip" is the best.  I "believe" that I’m getting better assistance in that position, especially if the other swimmer has a similar stroke rate and I can put my hand into the same hole as he/she has just taken his/her hand out of.  You can literally feel the hole in the water.   One thing I am sure of is that "on the hip" is better tactically.  You can see the person you are drafting off clearly and can also see past them to the mark that you are swimming to.  This means that you won’t get lead astray and negate the drafting effect by swimming extra distance.  You should also develop an extra skill of rolling over the other person, if they do decide to go off on a tangent.  This is also a fun thing to practice in a group swim. Cheers Jeff — Jeff Cook At work: Phone: +64-9-424 5388 At home: Phone: +64-9-424 0336

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  Can anyone explain how drafting works in the water? Thanks.                                              Molly

There is a good article about open water swimming and drafting at active.com http://www.active.com/story.cfm?story_id=6707&sidebar=26&category=tri… The hardest thing is to stay close enough but not hit the feet of the person in front of you.  That can annoy them. Mark Roberts

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The same as on the bike (and run). The only difference is that the guy in front of you is pushing water, not air, away. If you’re close behind you don’t have to do the same work again, and thus ‘draft’. You need to get quite a bit closer than on the bike though, partly because of the slower speed, to get any benefits. (Yes, this is in layman’s terms. My english isn’t good enough to talk about physical stuff like turbulences, pressure gradients etc. without a dictionary and possibly getting most of the wording wrong anyway) Hope that helped anyway. -stephan   Can anyone explain how drafting works in the water? Thanks.

– stephan mantler: endurance sports maniac    reality is in fact virtual.

Response:

While I have found drafting directly behind a lead swimmer does make it much easier, I’ve read that one really wants to swim "on the hip" of a lead swimmer. I’ve never tried the hip thing… anyone have an opinion? (stupid question ) — anyone have any facts? Wim

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The same as on the bike (and run). The only difference is that the guy in front of you is pushing water, not air, away. If you’re close behind you don’t have to do the same work again, and thus ‘draft’. You need to get quite a bit closer than on the bike though, partly because of the slower speed, to get any benefits. (Yes, this is in layman’s terms. My english isn’t good enough to talk about physical stuff like turbulences, pressure gradients etc. without a dictionary and possibly getting most of the wording wrong anyway) Hope that helped anyway. -stephan   Can anyone explain how drafting works in the water? Thanks. — stephan mantler: endurance sports maniac    reality is in fact virtual.

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  Can anyone explain how drafting works in the water? Thanks.                                              Molly

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Question:

Hey Mike- From a 60 year young that likes to run, your post hit it on the nose-

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Yeh, at this rate there eventually could be a separate award for those Kenyans, too.  They keep winning those damn marathons.   Wheelchair division?  Hell, let’s get rid of that designation and group them with the regulars.  Hey, first finished, first awarded, right?  Man, you’re really on to something!

Response:

Don’t know if this topic has been discussed before, but I’m new to the ng, so I’ll submit it for deliberation:

Endlessly. My proposal is that age group awards be applied with children up to the age of 18, (perhaps in 2 year intervals) but thereafter, strictly "first come, first served", or, rather, "first finished, first awarded".  An adult shouldn’t need the hokey positive reinforcement of "winning" a silver medal for being "2nd woman in the 61-65 year old division". Yawn.

And a bigger yawn back to you. Perhaps when you get a little older you’ll realize that although your times drop, your competitive spirit doesn’t.  You can’t compete against the best in the race, but you can compete with the best in your age group. The speed is slower, but the effort and killer instinct is the same. Age groups recognize the inevitable slowing down and permits competitive racing by everyone. And if you don’t think it’s fierce competition – just wait til you get there. You’re in for a surprise, kiddo. Mike Tennent "IronPenguin" ‘98 Ironman Canada, 16:17:03

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: I would agree that age awards help keep race attendance up, but this : does raise an interesting point re: their allocation, especially : in small clubs such as the one I’m a member of. : Does anyone allocate the number of awards for an age group/gender : combination by the number of entrants in the race in that group? The Christmas Relays in San Fransisco used a similar scheme. They looked at the number of teams per category the previous year and altered the awards accordingly. For example, the open category might go 10 deep in awards, the master’s men 4 deep, and the corporate women might just have one.  I never heard any complaints. -pfrench

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The folks that run 4:15 or 5:00 hrs. make up the bulk of the hugemungous fields that promoters love. It’s their participation that define the sport. IF they weren’t running and truly loved what they do there would be no one to care about who runs 2:06 – whatever. Without them there is no sport. So …. this is a long way of saying, by all means have as many categories as you want and recognize as many as you can. Failure to do so is a fast track to oblivion. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Okay, maybe I haven’t been running long enough to become jaded, but I say long live the 375 differnt age group awards… Tough I harbor no delusions about my speed or my abilities, my cheesy medals and trophies occupy a fine space in my living room for all to see. Not to show off my "awesome talents" (best 5k at 18" and marathon 3:19), but to symbolize the love I have for the sport and the dedication that I put into it. And if glancing at these before a 5am hill workout helps get me out the door, all the better. And even if these awards do decieve some into thinking that they may be the next DeCosta, so what? If even one 43 yr old female (or male…) wins an award because they were the only entrant in their group, and that keeps them running, it’s worth it. These little generic medals (engraved with the name of the race on the back, if you’re lucky) can have some big power, especially for those new to the sport. I just finished my first marathon, and though the only award I received was a finishers medal, it will stay with me forever as a testament to all those 3hr runs at 6am in 30 degree temps that brought me to the finish line. Wes PS  Does a 3:19 first marathon mean I m,ay be "world class"? I mean, I didn’t get an award, but…

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hey dan come race me in the 7.6 mile wilderness run in danville IL..and you will be happy to get an age group award..because you sure wont be winning..

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…  Just curious as to whether ng participants are the sorts who need public recognition to validate effort made during races.  Appears so.

I’m just curious as to whether you’re the sort who gets displeasure out of other people’s enjoyment. Appears so.

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Okay, maybe I haven’t been running long enough to become jaded, but I say long live the 375 differnt age group awards… Tough I harbor no delusions about my speed or my abilities, my cheesy medals and trophies occupy a fine space in my living room for all to see. Not to show off my "awesome talents" (best 5k at 18" and marathon 3:19), but to symbolize the love I have for the sport and the dedication that I put into it. And if glancing at these before a 5am hill workout helps get me out the door, all the better. And even if these awards do decieve some into thinking that they may be the next DeCosta, so what? If even one 43 yr old female (or male…) wins an award because they were the only entrant in their group, and that keeps them running, it’s worth it. These little generic medals (engraved with the name of the race on the back, if you’re lucky) can have some big power, especially for those new to the sport. I just finished my first marathon, and though the only award I received was a finishers medal, it will stay with me forever as a testament to all those 3hr runs at 6am in 30 degree temps that brought me to the finish line. Wes PS  Does a 3:19 first marathon mean I m,ay be "world class"? I mean, I didn’t get an award, but…

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I would agree that age awards help keep race attendance up, but this does raise an interesting point re: their allocation, especially in small clubs such as the one I’m a member of.  In our club, Does anyone allocate the number of awards for an age group/gender combination by the number of entrants in the race in that group?  For Has anyone tried this?  Results? Paul

Along these lines… I once set up a 5K (or maybe it was a 10K) using a staggered by age-group *start* so that, if each person ran as expected for their age, everyone would finish together. It then doesn’t matter how many are in each age group. The best runners (that day, of course) as adjusted for age, will win.  You give the first 5 (or 10, or whatever) across the finish line the prizes. Actually, we had prizes donated by local merchants. First finisher got first pick from the table, second got next pick, etc. — Steve

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I would agree that age awards help keep race attendance up, but this does raise an interesting point re: their allocation, especially in small clubs such as the one I’m a member of.  In our club, age awards are 3 deep for all of the age group/gender combinations. Our club happens to have a lot of 40-49 males and very few 60+ males, for instance.  This generally results in the same folks in the 60+/male group regularly getting medals, regardless of whether they race hard or easy (and perhaps one or two medals not even getting awarded), and very few folks in the 40-49/male group getting (or having a chance at getting) a medal. Does anyone allocate the number of awards for an age group/gender combination by the number of entrants in the race in that group?  For example, maybe our club could award medals 5 deep in 40-49M, and only one deep in 60+M.  It seems that this would give more entrants a chance at winning an age group medal, and perhaps work more toward encouraging entrance into races (and perhaps encourage better performance within each group).  On the other hand, this may be more of an administrative problem, especially if you allow race day registration (though perhaps could base it on the participation in the last race), and it may be viewed as biased against the smaller-numbered groups. Has anyone tried this?  Results? Paul As a race director, I can tell you cutting back on age awards reduces participation. As someone who finishes near the front, you may say "Big Deal". The thing that many runners don’t understand is that the folks at the back of the pack pay the bills that makes the race possible. Numbers go down, the race goes away. Races in urban locations can often cost a couple thousand dollars to stage (not counting shirts, awards, etc). Sponsorship usually covers these costs, but if only 100 people show up, sponsors don’t want to participate.

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Keith, I like it! Now if we could only get rid of bandits. Uh-oh, it was probably a mistake to bring THAT up And yes, Dan We’ve discussed THAT to death! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Nope.  Just curious as to whether ng participants are the sorts who need public recognition to validate effort made during races.  Appears so. It’s not really a matter whether participants HERE need AG awards or not. The issue is whether runners at large find AG awards appealing. As a race director, I can tell you cutting back on age awards reduces participation. As someone who finishes near the front, you may say "Big Deal". The thing that many runners don’t understand is that the folks at the back of the pack pay the bills that makes the race possible. Numbers go down, the race goes away. Races in urban locations can often cost a couple thousand dollars to stage (not counting shirts, awards, etc). Sponsorship usually covers these costs, but if only 100 people show up, sponsors don’t want to participate. As far as leaving of age, any race I put on you’ll get your form back and be asked to fill in the age before you get a bib. I put people that try to carry on a personal crusade at my events in the same league with the people that register at Donald Duck and Darth Vader. If you want to stay ageless and anonymous I have a better solution, stay home. — Keith Stone, Winston-Salem, NC "Y2K is an abbreviation problem."

– Anti-Spam Alert: If you wish to reply, cut the *BS* Trails of The Diablo Valley           *Running – Hiking – Nature*             http://come.to/diablo-valley-trails

Response:

Nope.  Just curious as to whether ng participants are the sorts who need public recognition to validate effort made during races.  Appears so.

It’s not really a matter whether participants HERE need AG awards or not. The issue is whether runners at large find AG awards appealing. As a race director, I can tell you cutting back on age awards reduces participation. As someone who finishes near the front, you may say "Big Deal". The thing that many runners don’t understand is that the folks at the back of the pack pay the bills that makes the race possible. Numbers go down, the race goes away. Races in urban locations can often cost a couple thousand dollars to stage (not counting shirts, awards, etc). Sponsorship usually covers these costs, but if only 100 people show up, sponsors don’t want to participate. As far as leaving of age, any race I put on you’ll get your form back and be asked to fill in the age before you get a bib. I put people that try to carry on a personal crusade at my events in the same league with the people that register at Donald Duck and Darth Vader. If you want to stay ageless and anonymous I have a better solution, stay home. — Keith Stone, Winston-Salem, NC "Y2K is an abbreviation problem."

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TROLL ALERT? Nope.  Just curious as to whether ng participants are the sorts who need public recognition to validate effort made during races.  Appears so. Dan Radosevich.

    Man, am I tired of this little whinner.  Just don’t race if you don’t like the awards.  Measure your own course so you can time yourself and set the PR’s.  Then you can know in your own mind that you should have, could have gotten an award, if you really cared about such things.     Why does it sound like you are someone who has never gotten an award? Just a bit jealous of those who have?  I bet you finished 4th once and they only gave awards for top 3.  Or maybe you just aren’t the competative type and don’t like those of us who race to win.  Just some little wuss on the side line who wishes he could run with the big boys and hear the roar of the crowd instead of the "pitty clap" of finishing in the back.  Sack up little man and quit crying about those of us who stand up on the podium when the dust clears.     dube

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It seems to me I heard somewhere that Dan Radosevich wrote in article Don’t know if this topic has been discussed before, but I’m new to the ng, so I’ll submit it for deliberation: A special pet peeve of mine with regards to races is the awarding of prizes to an increasingly many, fractured age groups.  Lots of races I’ve been to, and results I’ve seen, break award division down by decade, (e.g. 20-29, 30-39, etc.) and some even make the divisions at 5 year intervals.

Do you have any idea at all how much the average person’s ability declines between, for instance, 60 and 70 or 70 and 80? Sounds like covert ageism to me.  :-) My proposal is that age group awards be applied with children up to the age of 18, (perhaps in 2 year intervals) but thereafter, strictly "first come, first served", or, rather, "first finished, first awarded".  An adult shouldn’t need the hokey positive reinforcement of "winning" a silver medal for being "2nd woman in the 61-65 year old division". Yawn.

Right on!  Any 70 year old should be able to muscle his way into those top five finishers if he’s really motivated and trains enough! Too many awards given to adults at the end of a race fosters delusion as to the effort made by the competitors.  Let the race be its own reward. I’d even do away with the more encompassing "masters division", and aberrations of that ilk. Until the day that prizes for foot races are awarded only to the fastest three men and fastest three women to cover the course, perhaps I can persuade readers of this ng to do what I’ve started doing:  Write in "not applicable" on the entry form where it asks for age. Others’ thoughts?

My competition in a race, in order, consists of 1  Me 2  My 70+ age group  (subgroup:  cardio patients) 3  All the rest — Don          

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Shouldn’t personal assessment of the work invested, and the effort made during the race be enough?  Why does an adult need to receive a "finisher’s award" to provide validation of that effort?

Well hey, you’re the one who asked the question first, and made your proposal based on your opinion.  So I offered my opinion.  Take it or leave it, but if you’re not interested in the opinions on the ng, don’t bother posting yours. — Tom NYC Marathon 2000 trainee

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This assumes you are including marathons?  The accomplishment of simply finishing is worthy of an award – something to bring back the memory of intense work and pain to accomplish the goal (and to prepare for the goal). As far as the fun runs go, so what if they seem to go overboard?  It’s still an accomplishment to finish a 1 mile fun run.  Nothing wrong with being given a token to remind you of that day – every race is special to me. You never know which one may be your last.  Enjoy what you can when you can, and don’t sweat the small stuff like why does everyone get a token for finishing. — Tom NYC Marathon 2000 trainee – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Don’t know if this topic has been discussed before, but I’m new to the ng, so I’ll submit it for deliberation: A special pet peeve of mine with regards to races is the awarding of prizes to an increasingly many, fractured age groups.  Lots of races I’ve been to, and results I’ve seen, break award division down by decade, (e.g. 20-29, 30-39, etc.) and some even make the divisions at 5 year intervals. My proposal is that age group awards be applied with children up to the age of 18, (perhaps in 2 year intervals) but thereafter, strictly "first come, first served", or, rather, "first finished, first awarded".  An adult shouldn’t need the hokey positive reinforcement of "winning" a silver medal for being "2nd woman in the 61-65 year old division". Yawn. Too many awards given to adults at the end of a race fosters delusion as to the effort made by the competitors.  Let the race be its own reward. I’d even do away with the more encompassing "masters division", and aberrations of that ilk. Until the day that prizes for foot races are awarded only to the fastest three men and fastest three women to cover the course, perhaps I can persuade readers of this ng to do what I’ve started doing:  Write in "not applicable" on the entry form where it asks for age. Others’ thoughts? Best wishes in the New Year, Dan Radosevich.

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TROLL ALERT? Don’t know if this topic has been discussed before, but I’m new to the ng, so I’ll submit it for deliberation:

It has! A special pet peeve of mine with regards to races is the awarding of prizes to an increasingly many, fractured age groups.  Lots of races I’ve been to, and results I’ve seen, break award division down by decade, (e.g. 20-29, 30-39, etc.) and some even make the divisions at 5 year intervals.

Shameful. My proposal is that age group awards be applied with children up to the age of 18, (perhaps in 2 year intervals) but thereafter, strictly "first

Why use *hokey (sp)* 2 yr. intervals. I’m in favor of 1 yr. intervals. That way almost ALL chidden will get an award. come, first served", or, rather, "first finished, first awarded".  An adult shouldn’t need the hokey positive reinforcement of "winning" a silver medal for being "2nd woman in the 61-65 year old division". Yawn. Too many awards given to adults at the end of a race fosters delusion as to the effort made by the competitors.  Let the race be its own reward.

Delusions? Has a 60 yr. young person who’s run a 48 min 10k put in less effort than a 25 yr old who finished in 32 minutes. You can’t know. You didn’t mention doing away with gender based awards. I must assume that was an oversight. Let the *race be its own reward*; right? I’d even do away with the more encompassing "masters division", and aberrations of that ilk.

Seniors divisions also. You forgot that. Until the day that prizes for foot races are awarded only to the fastest three men and fastest three women to cover the course, perhaps I can

Whoops – you do separate by gender. You’re wandering from your thesis. persuade readers of this ng to do what I’ve started doing:  Write in "not applicable" on the entry form where it asks for age. Others’ thoughts?

THIS WHOLE POST LOOKS VERY MUCH LIKE *TROLL BAIT* Best wishes in the New Year, Dan Radosevich.

 Denny Anderson  To ERR is human… to ZIN, divine!

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Then I suspect you have never put on a race. I think those token awards for the age groups ARE what keeps people running, inspired, and returning. By throwing out the age group awards you are basically telling everyone but the top n to go pound salt.

I never have put on a race.  Isn’t receiving the commemorative t-shirt for participation enough to get people to sign up for the race? Just to spice this up, are a runner that receives awards from being fast or wining an age group???

I *usually* finish somewhere towards the front.  (If the race in question is my school’s annual Alumni Vs. Varsity, I might be farther back in the pack than otherwise.) Happy trails! Dan Radosevich

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TROLL ALERT?

Nope.  Just curious as to whether ng participants are the sorts who need public recognition to validate effort made during races.  Appears so. Dan Radosevich.

Response:

This assumes you are including marathons?

All races. The accomplishment of simply finishing is worthy of an award – something to bring back the memory of intense work and pain to accomplish the goal (and to prepare for the goal).

Shouldn’t personal assessment of the work invested, and the effort made during the race be enough?  Why does an adult need to receive a "finisher’s award" to provide validation of that effort? Stay healthy in 1999! Dan Radosevich

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My news server seems to have thrown away Mr. Radosevich’s article, so I’m going to respond to Mr. Cotton and Mr. Radosevich at once. This assumes you are including marathons?  The accomplishment of simply finishing is worthy of an award – something to bring back the memory of intense work and pain to accomplish the goal (and to prepare for the goal).

Actually, I’m not particularly fond of finisher’s medals for marathons. Sure, it’s difficult, but a medal? I remember finishing Silicon Valley and being 32 seconds off Boston qualifying. I crossed (staggered) across the line and they handed me a medal. I’ve still got it but it feels cheap to me, because in my heart I know I blew it. Don’t know if this topic has been discussed before, but I’m new to the ng, so I’ll submit it for deliberation: A special pet peeve of mine with regards to races is the awarding of prizes to an increasingly many, fractured age groups.  Lots of races I’ve been to, and results I’ve seen, break award division down by decade, (e.g. 20-29, 30-39, etc.) and some even make the divisions at 5 year intervals. [snip] Until the day that prizes for foot races are awarded only to the fastest three men and fastest three women to cover the course, perhaps I can persuade readers of this ng to do what I’ve started doing:  Write in "not applicable" on the entry form where it asks for age.

What I don’t understand is why you think that gender is somehow a special distinction. Why not do away with that too and just give an award to the first X people across the line? I understand that women are in general slower than men, and so this would mean that women basically didn’t get awards, but similarly 65 year olds are slower than 20 year olds, so they wouldn’t get awards under your proposed system. In short, I think your position is inconsistent. As for my personal opinion, I think it’s worthwhile honoring people who are successful in their cohort. Obviously, this can be taken to an extreme where everyone is a cohort of one, but I certainly think it’s meaningful (and an achievement) to finish in the top 5% of a cohort of 100 or so. -Ekr —           eTrain – free triathlon training software               http://www.rtfm.com/tri/etrain.html

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   There are runners who want an age group award even if they’re the ONLY runner in their group; that’s human nature for ya. Personally, I don’t want anything except a completion award; the others are meaningless to me, and I sure ain’t going to win a race.    In a Clydesdale list, a female runner complained bitterly that she was humiliated by being spotlighted for best in a WEIGHT category – a weight she wasn’t thrilled to be in. I told her to lie about her weight, so that she wouldn’t ever qualify for such an award.    Race Directors need to be a bit more sensitive, and they could easily solve this problem by asking this question on the race application: "do you wish to be recognized for winning any age or weight awards?" Paul We spend our lives running from things Which are not chasing us

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Don’t know if this topic has been discussed before, but I’m new to the ng, so I’ll submit it for deliberation: A special pet peeve of mine with regards to races is the awarding of prizes to an increasingly many, fractured age groups.  Lots of races I’ve been to, and results I’ve seen, break award division down by decade, (e.g. 20-29, 30-39, etc.) and some even make the divisions at 5 year intervals. My proposal is that age group awards be applied with children up to the age of 18, (perhaps in 2 year intervals) but thereafter, strictly "first come, first served", or, rather, "first finished, first awarded".  An adult shouldn’t need the hokey positive reinforcement of "winning" a silver medal for being "2nd woman in the 61-65 year old division". Yawn.

Then I suspect you have never put on a race. I think those token awards for the age groups ARE what keeps people running, inspired, and returning. By throwing out the age group awards you are basically telling everyone but the top n to go pound salt.  Just to be ornery, I like to see only the age group awards and the hell with the top N. The winners will get their awards with their age group. In addition, whether it’s appreciated or not, if  age group awards are not offered then kiss the future of the race good-bye. If you are trying to generate money for a good cause then you fail on that front. I will agree that some races have taken the awards system into too many sub-groups i.e. the fastest local male with round laces, triple knotted born on the Ides of March…..   Just to spice this up, are a runner that receives awards from being fast or wining an age group??? — Caveat Lector!

Response:

Don’t know if this topic has been discussed before, but I’m new to the ng, so I’ll submit it for deliberation: A special pet peeve of mine with regards to races is the awarding of prizes to an increasingly many, fractured age groups.  Lots of races I’ve been to, and results I’ve seen, break award division down by decade, (e.g. 20-29, 30-39, etc.) and some even make the divisions at 5 year intervals. My proposal is that age group awards be applied with children up to the age of 18, (perhaps in 2 year intervals) but thereafter, strictly "first come, first served", or, rather, "first finished, first awarded".  An adult shouldn’t need the hokey positive reinforcement of "winning" a silver medal for being "2nd woman in the 61-65 year old division". Yawn. Too many awards given to adults at the end of a race fosters delusion as to the effort made by the competitors.  Let the race be its own reward. I’d even do away with the more encompassing "masters division", and aberrations of that ilk. Until the day that prizes for foot races are awarded only to the fastest three men and fastest three women to cover the course, perhaps I can persuade readers of this ng to do what I’ve started doing:  Write in "not applicable" on the entry form where it asks for age. Others’ thoughts? Best wishes in the New Year, Dan Radosevich.

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Question:

Off? OFF??!! They don’t come off!

At a pre race meeting I attended a couple weeks ago the RD commented on how important it was to be body marked with your correct number and, as part of an example, said how much trouble it causes for the timers when someone number 277 comes through marked 103 or something. Someone in the crowd quickly and astutely called out that such things wouldn’t be a problem if everyone would simply bathe between races. 8^)   — Chuck    Department of Biology,  University of Alabama at Birmingham             http://www.uab.edu/uabbio/amsler.htm

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Soap and a washcloth — the washcloth is critical.  this makes it easy Ray Plotecia Male Amateur, 50-54 Columbia, MD – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – can someone tell me how to get these number off my legs without removing copious quantities of skin as well… PLeeeeeeease….

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Ha! Last year at a race I did they were using letters to indicate your age group instead of your age. I ran up behind a guy that had a letter F on his calf slightly crossed out and a letter U written beside it. He had been obviously incorrectly marked and an attempt made to correct it. But to me, it said F U.  I ran up to him and said "Hey, well F U 2 pal!" After a second or two of confusion he absolutely broke up in laughter and doubled over and had to stop running for a bit from laughing so hard. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – can someone tell me how to get these number off my legs without removing copious quantities of skin as well… PLeeeeeeease….

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A cotton ball and nail polish remover is what I’ve been using for over ten years…it smell bad for a while but it works! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – can someone tell me how to get these number off my legs without removing copious quantities of skin as well… PLeeeeeeease….

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SOUNDS LIKE YOU’VE ALREADY FOUND THE ANSWER (REMOVING SKIN)!!!!    : )                                              B.OLIVER

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Avon’s Skin So Soft works great too. A cotton ball and nail polish remover is what I’ve been using for over ten years…it smell bad for a while but it works! can someone tell me how to get these number off my legs without removing copious quantities of skin as well… PLeeeeeeease….

– Realize that you are only human. Don’t worry what other people will say. Remove self-imposed obstacles. Shoot for the moon, but be realistic. Do what you really want to do. ___Scott Tinley

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Someone suggested in a previous note on this same subject that make-up remover works well.  Being a shy guy, I haven’t tried it so can’t comment first hand. Good luck. Cary — http://members.tripod.com/~ccpurdy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – can someone tell me how to get these number off my legs without removing copious quantities of skin as well… PLeeeeeeease….

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I’m with Pete.  Don’t take them off!  It’s like getting to wear your race medal for about a week (before normal daily washing seems to totally remove them for me) and you have a legitimate excuse!  When people ask, "why do you have numbers written on you?" you get to explain that you are a triathlete and they use permanent ink pens to put them on (very important, or they’ll think that you don’t bathe). But if you’re female and have a big formal event, and want to wear a sleevless, short dress then that’s too bad. Dan

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        Steel wool and acid of course. You are a tough triathlete, right? David Barclay IMC 1997: 11:55:59 Triathlon: "Swim, Bike, Crawl"

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Just a short story on marking numbers: I did a Half Ironman in May of last year in Kona, Hawaii.  One word – HOT!  Anyway, I got my body marked and then I applied sunscreen.  Fast forward to September of that year (3 months later!)  I still had the burn marks from the numbers on my arms.  It was really apparent too.  Very visable to anyone.  I still remember my race number – 38.

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David Barclay says…        Steel wool and acid of course. You are a tough triathlete, right?

And of course if all else has failed and you’re getting really desperate an industrial strength belt sander should remove those pesky numbers in no time. AJ — If swimming is so good for the figure, explain whales Simon Haigh

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Citrus-based hand cleaner works very well. Go-Jo Fast Orange comes to mind. can someone tell me how to get these number off my legs without removing copious quantities of skin as well… PLeeeeeeease….

Rick Denney Take what you want and leave the rest.

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can someone tell me how to get these number off my legs without removing copious quantities of skin as well… PLeeeeeeease….

Being the fair-skinned type, I use so much lotion that they are usually gone by the time I take off my wetsuit for T1. Suntan lotion seems to dissolve it quite readily. (I went without lotion once, the sun came out brightly, and the number "187" was burned into my arm for a few months.) Greg Snyder

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Last year my son crashed big-time near the end of the bike… one of the first things to get him to smile about it (10 min later) was our discussion that his race numbers on the right side were already removed… I really wouldn’t suggest this method. Jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – can someone tell me how to get these number off my legs without removing copious quantities of skin as well… PLeeeeeeease….

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Iron Pete has it dead right – why would you want to be like all the other sloths at work. Some of them may even perk up an interest at give tri’s a shot too……well, maybe not.   I, for one, don’t mind being different.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – can someone tell me how to get these number off my legs without removing copious quantities of skin as well… PLeeeeeeease…. You are bloody , it is not a problem.

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Why would you want to take the "Badge of Courage" off? I just don’t understand some people. Eric W. can someone tell me how to get these number off my legs without removing copious quantities of skin as well… PLeeeeeeease….

– Eric  Weiss GFT 97 – Completed IMC 98 – Confirmed

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Take a shower with your girlfriend and have her work on it.  Get’s mine off every time. Life’s a brick

Response:

The Hope Foundation  says… Why would you want to take the "Badge of Courage" off?

Obviously so that you can get a different one the next day when you backup for the long course on the Sunday morning after doing the sprint event on the Saturday Afternoon I just don’t understand some people.

I don’t either but I’ve given up trying to understand triathletes. Eric W.

AJ — If swimming is so good for the figure, explain whales —- Simon Haigh

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can someone tell me how to get these number off my legs without removing copious quantities of skin as well… PLeeeeeeease….

Sunscreen.  Don’t even need to scrub. Cameron

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Off? OFF??!! They don’t come off! Good Training, Good Racing, Joe (Number 635 . . . for life) PS: Oh well … if you must … Eye liner remover works very well. Joseph C. Foster The Stanley Works "The idea is to create your own future, and not have it shaped by circumstance." – Peter Thomas

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Everyone seems to have a favorite.  Me, I use the mechanics hand cleaner goop… non toxic, gentle, and it works even when they use a 3" brush to put the numbers on. Now, if I could go to work in shorts like Iron Pete, maybe I’d leave my numbers on too… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – can someone tell me how to get these number off my legs without removing copious quantities of skin as well… PLeeeeeeease….

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can someone tell me how to get these number off my legs without removing copious quantities of skin as well… PLeeeeeeease….

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Hilary Schofield wants to know how to get these number off my legs without removing copious quantities of skin as well..

Hillary, Try alcohol and a cotton ball or use soap and water. Bob Williams 55-59 Severna Park, MD

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can someone tell me how to get these number off my legs without removing copious quantities of skin as well… PLeeeeeeease….

Naaah don’t do that. Keep them on. I like coming into work with numbers the next day. Kinda defines what I am to my peers. <g                           |26      | IMC’96: 10:36:37          |   Fe   |   ‘98 IMC, GCT, BSLT IMC’97: 10:42:53          |        |                  "THE BEST ELEMENT OF RACING"

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Question:

I’m a former 2:30 marathoner with one season of tri’s under my belt. In my first season I had several top 10 finishes mostly as a result of my running strength. I am looking to be very competitive this coming season. How much emphasis should I be placing on my training for each respective phase of the triathlon?  I will be racing 3-4 International distance and 1 half-ironman this season and gearing up for an ironman length race for 1999. I typically average 12 workouts per week which consist of 35 mi/wk running, 100 mi./wk cycling (mostly on bike trainer this winter), and 8-10,000 yds/wk. swimming. Thanks

Response:

I’m a former 2:30 marathoner with one season of tri’s under my belt. In my first season I had several top 10 finishes mostly as a result of my running strength. I am looking to be very competitive this coming season. How much emphasis should I be placing on my training for each respective phase of the triathlon?  I will be racing 3-4 International distance and 1 half-ironman this season and gearing up for an ironman length race for 1999. I typically average 12 workouts per week which consist of 35 mi/wk running, 100 mi./wk cycling (mostly on bike trainer this winter), and 8-10,000 yds/wk. swimming. Thanks

Look at the site www.supercoach.com

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Question:

I finally recieved my Vineman packet yesterday.  I called Raceday, the beverage supplier for the race, to try ad obtain samples to make sure it sat with my GI tract.  The guy at Raceday said they only sell biug vats to the actual race (enough to make something like 16 gallons, I think it was, although I may still have been delusional at the time).  Anyway, he said it’s pretty cross-tolerant with Gatorade. The Bertha Gary P. Chimes MD/PhD Student

Response:

I finally recieved my Vineman packet yesterday.  I called Raceday, the beverage supplier for the race, to try ad obtain samples to make sure it sat with my GI tract.  The guy at Raceday said they only sell biug vats to the actual race (enough to make something like 16 gallons, I think it was, although I may still have been delusional at the time).  Anyway, he said it’s pretty cross-tolerant with Gatorade.

I had stomach cramps most of the way through Wildflower.  Later, after I experimented with different combos of drinks, bars and gels during workouts, I figured out that it was because I had switched from Apple-flavored Cytomax to Orange-flavored Cytomax.  The difference between the two is that Orange Cytomax contains various herbal stimulants that don’t sit well with my system.  I had used the Orange Cytomax exactly once before the race — not enough to know if it would work for me or not. I learned once again that one of the unbreakable rules of triathlon is "nothing new on race day."  Even if it’s called Race Day. I’m sticking with Cytomax, Power Gel, VO2 Max & Power Bars, and water at Vineman.  It’s just going to take a little extra planning. The Carmel Group "Certainly the game is rigged. Don’t let that stop you; if you don’t bet, you can’t win."  R.A.H.

Response:

I learned once again that one of the unbreakable rules of triathlon is "nothing new on race day."  Even if it’s called Race Day. I’m sticking with Cytomax, Power Gel, VO2 Max & Power Bars, and water at Vineman.  It’s just going to take a little extra planning. The Carmel Group "Certainly the game is rigged. Don’t let that stop you; if you don’t bet, you can’t win."  R.A.H.

Full Vineman participants: The Vineman doesn’t have a formal "special needs" bag handoff station, so here’s my suggestion if you want to stick to your food formulae: Get a friend to meet you at the mile 50 aid station and have him/her hand you a bag.  This is legal in this race.  It has to be at one of the aid stations, and be sure that they stay out of the way (although my dad ended up helping other riders with bottle handoffs). But it was wonderful getting two icey cold Cytomax bottles and other goodies for the next 62 miles ahead. One more piece of advice:  drink the Pepsi on the run!  I wish I’d known how valuable it can be earlier Good luck in what should be a great race. Cheers, Vaughn — Vaughn Cooper Center for Microbial Ecology, Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824 (517) 353-3953/3955 voice/fax

Response:

Race Day is now available in 2.5 gallon pouches.  This is enough to fill 16-20 water bottles.  Please call 1-888-459-2376 to place an order.  Coming soon retail sized foil pouches, and Pro Enhancer a gm of choline in a 4 oz. shot.  Look for us at Vineman, National City, and Columbia MD.and F.I.R.M events in New England, among other races. Tom Cox InterNutria – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I finally recieved my Vineman packet yesterday.  I called Raceday, the beverage supplier for the race, to try ad obtain samples to make sure it sat with my GI tract.  The guy at Raceday said they only sell biug vats to the actual race (enough to make something like 16 gallons, I think it was, although I may still have been delusional at the time).  Anyway, he said it’s pretty cross-tolerant with Gatorade. The Bertha Gary P. Chimes MD/PhD Student

Response:

Race Day is now available in 2.5 gallon pouches.  This is enough to fill 16-20 water bottles.  Please call 1-888-459-2376 to place an order. Coming soon retail sized foil pouches, and Pro Enhancer a gm of choline in a 4 oz. shot.  Look for us at Vineman, National City, and Columbia MD.and F.I.R.M events in New England, among other races. Tom Cox InterNutria

What I fail to understand is that a NEW product is going to be sprung on us, if WE so desire to use it, but the sponsor could have easily sent us a pouch or two ahead of time so we could determine if our bodies would accept/reject…we could have received this information with our registration packet…2.5 gallon puches are quite large…do you make the individual, or is the 2.5 gallon for group rides? so where are my samples? does is come in more than one flavor ???

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Question:

I suffer from runners knee.  In the November Triathlete there is an article about the Cho-Pat strap.  Unfortunately, the article reads as if the Cho-Pat company wrote it.  Have any of you RST’rs used the strap and does it live up the the Triathlete write up?

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I have used it  and have found some relief.  i now only use it when i feel the beginnings of pain and it seems to keep my problem in check.  i bought mine from a local physical therapist.  good luck, david

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Question:

I’ve never tried this , but if you are using a keg system, you can take dry hops and suspend them in a big tea bag with a piece of dental floss. this is called dry hopping.

There once was an article in  ymrgy where guys were injecting various strength hop teas into kegs. I don’t know which issue. It was several years ago. Bill Crick Brewius,Ergo Sum!

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I’ve never tried this , but if you are using a keg system, you can take dry hops and suspend them in a big tea bag with a piece of dental floss. this is called dry hopping.

Response:

I’d use a very high alpha hop like eroica. I dont think hop oils are good for bittering. Not sure about extracts – but I would’nt use those I think they are extracted with some nasty chemical process. Personally I’d just leave it and drink it as is. Failing this, How about brewing up a second batch and making it extra hoppy to compensate. Then when you want a beer you just have to open one of each and mix them together! as they say.."Relax – have two homebrews"

I like this latter idea!  A great excuse to drink 2!  I brewed a honey porter once that was way, way too sweet (realized that I didn’t have enough hops after I was boiling and did the calculations).  I tried adding a few drop of hop oil to each glass as I drank it, and it didn’t seem to help much.  Thus, I just reserved the bottles for special occasions and tell everyone who doesn’t know better that it’s some exotic brew that they have to learn to like (some actually believe this!).  Anyway, now I plan to get really relaxed and drink 2 tonight. — Marty Miller (aka The Noodle) Proprietor of "The Triathlete’s Web" http://w3.one.net/~triweb/triweb.html

Response:

Hi Stephen, I’m a hophead and like my Pilsner’s brewed with an HBU between 12-15 during the boil.  Like an idiot I failed to read the Alpha % on hop varieties that I had been using previously and later found that the Alpha % dropped on the latest packets I bought .  I ended up with about 8 HBU’s.   Is there a remedy that I can implement prior bottling time??

Your ideas sounded OK but it might extract better into a quart or so of water (I know – it’ll lighten the beer a little but not much). I’d use a very high alpha hop like eroica. I dont think hop oils are good for bittering. Not sure about extracts – but I would’nt use those I think they are extracted with some nasty chemical process. Personally I’d just leave it and drink it as is. Failing this, How about brewing up a second batch and making it extra hoppy to compensate. Then when you want a beer you just have to open one of each and mix them together! as they say.."Relax – have two homebrews" MikeS

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Underhopped? …. my condolences!  

…  1. Can I siphon off about a quart from my seconadary (or water) and  boil in 4-6 HBU’s of hops and add it back to the secondary prior to  bottling.  I can’t think of a problem since the boiling will drive off  any Oxygen.  Is 1 quart enough to absorb 4-6 HBU’s that can be added  back to my 5 gallon secondary? Never tried any of this, but sounds basically feasable (but a big pain). With 1 quart of wort, alpa acid extraction efficiency will be quite low, so you might want to look at some formula to calculate desired effect. (Definitely check out Tinseth’s hop page, http://www.teleport.com/~gtinseth/index.html, if you don’t know that one already.)  Of course, you will also drive off all alcohol and likely blast to oblivion most of the more subtle flavours in that 1 quart.    2. What about hop extracts or hop oils?  Can I use these to increase  the HBU’s to my ultimate goal. Snake oil ?!  (Gachk)  Can’t imagine that being good for bittering other than in very tiny (ie non hop-head) amounts .  Sounds "un-pure" to a hop head like me!  3.  Will pellets, plugs, or whole hops work best for this recovery  plan?  Should I use a small amount of high Alpha hops or more of low  Alpha hops?  Or should I use the same as the origional (ie Saaz) Probably best to stick with the original type(s). I’d go with pellet since aa extraction efficiency is higher.   Sounds like a BIG pain though, and fraught with risk.  I’d just drink it! May all your worts be hoppy, Peter Bell-Northern Research                     Nobody else wants them.  

Response:

I’m a hophead and like my Pilsner’s brewed with an HBU between 12-15 during the boil.  Like an idiot I failed to read the Alpha % on hop varieties that I had been using previously and later found that the Alpha % dropped on the latest packets I bought .  I ended up with about 8 HBU’s.   Is there a remedy that I can implement prior bottling time?? 1. Can I siphon off about a quart from my seconadary (or water) and boil in 4-6 HBU’s of hops and add it back to the secondary prior to bottling.  I can’t think of a problem since the boiling will drive off any Oxygen.  Is 1 quart enough to absorb 4-6 HBU’s that can be added back to my 5 gallon secondary? 2. What about hop extracts or hop oils?  Can I use these to increase the HBU’s to my ultimate goal. 3.  Will pellets, plugs, or whole hops work best for this recovery plan?  Should I use a small amount of high Alpha hops or more of low Alpha hops?  Or should I use the same as the origional (ie Saaz) Thanks in advance for any advice, Dave

Response:

Question:

I can only tell of my own experience, which has shown only small restraints on training through blood donating. I’m a sort of regular donor – like two or three times a year – and I found that I can start low intensity training about four to five hours after donating. It might be as much as a two hour run as long as the intensity is pretty low. Full training drops into place about two days later. Of course, this is trainig only. I see to it that there is at least six weeks until the next race.         Axel Axel Spohr                              o               o                                        _     _ <_    _ just du it…                           /    (_)/(_)    /

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does anybody really know if giving blood can be detrimental to a semi-intense training regime?  If so, how long would it take to recover?  I feel that I cannot get legitimate answers from hospital or clinic staffs because they have no concept of how hard a triathlete trains.   I’ve always heard that it takes 2-3 weeks for your red blood cell count to get back up to normal, so it will decrease your VO2 max for a few weeks.  However, at this time of year, I’m only doing maintenance workouts anyhow; almost entirely aerobic stuff.  Thus the reduction in VO2 max isn’t really noticeable.  I don’t donate blood frequently, but this is the one time of year I will if asked.  Take it easy for a couple of days after donating. Timothy — Timothy Gotsick

I give blood on aregular base, two to four times a year and that since five years and I even train on the same day. Joachim Heinle

Response:

We’re having a site blood drive here on Wednesday.  I never participate in these things because I’m usually training so hard every day that I am wary of losing oxygen supply to my already puny and overworked muscels. This time I’m considering donating some blood because I’m skiing all next week so I might have recouped my blood supply by the time I get back to the pool/trainer/road. Does anybody really know if giving blood can be detrimental to a semi-intense training regime?  If so, how long would it take to recover?  I feel that I cannot get legitimate answers from hospital or clinic staffs because they have no concept of how hard a triathlete trains.   Any ideas?        *   *     *                                                                *    *     *           Eric Roseme                                                     *       *       Hewlett-Packard, Information Networks Division              /   /    *        Eric ROSEME / HP6600/E0                                          \             (408) 447-2711                                              *  // *                                                                            \                                                                               \                                                                

Response:

Does anybody really know if giving blood can be detrimental to a semi-intense training regime?  If so, how long would it take to recover?  I feel that I cannot get legitimate answers from hospital or clinic staffs because they have no concept of how hard a triathlete trains.  

I’ve always heard that it takes 2-3 weeks for your red blood cell count to get back up to normal, so it will decrease your VO2 max for a few weeks.  However, at this time of year, I’m only doing maintenance workouts anyhow; almost entirely aerobic stuff.  Thus the reduction in VO2 max isn’t really noticeable.  I don’t donate blood frequently, but this is the one time of year I will if asked.  Take it easy for a couple of days after donating. Timothy — Timothy Gotsick

Response:

: Does anybody really know if giving blood can be detrimental to a : semi-intense training regime?  If so, how long would it take to : recover?  I feel that I cannot get legitimate answers from hospital : or clinic staffs because they have no concept of how hard a triathlete : trains.   : Any ideas? Eric- I donated blood during the "off season" last year.  I was too tired to do any intense work-outs for a week.  The second week I slowly built intensity back up to normal.  I had no long lasting effects. Janet

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We’re having a site blood drive here on Wednesday.  I never participate in these things because I’m usually training so hard every day that I am wary of losing oxygen supply to my already puny and overworked muscels. This time I’m considering donating some blood because I’m skiing all next week so I might have recouped my blood supply by the time I get back to the pool/trainer/road. Does anybody really know if giving blood can be detrimental to a semi-intense training regime?  If so, how long would it take to recover?  I feel that I cannot get legitimate answers from hospital or clinic staffs because they have no concept of how hard a triathlete trains.   Any ideas?

I started giving blood about 3 years ago when I was still doing triathlons (I quit meanwhile, so sorry). One thing you can be sure about is the fact that nothing will work the first two days after your donation.   From my own experience, I must say that it is quite difficult to feel when you’re back to the level where you were before your donation but the doctors told me that it takes about three weeks to ‘refill your blood-tank’ when you’ve donated the usual amount of

Question:

If you’re looking for some advice on hill climbing then there’s a very good article in the August issue of Triathlete magazine.  I’m a beginner, but I found the advice very clear and practical.  I may even try it out some time! Alun Evans University of British Columbia

Response:

I haven’t followed this whole thread, but my question is, how do you train for hills (steep ones) when you live on a flat featureless plain?  I plan to do repeats on a pedestrian overpass and feel really silly doing so. Any other suggestions?  Is there some part of CHicago geography that I don’t know about where I can find a close approximation of a hill? Please respond by email or by followup post if you’re so inclined steve

Response:

how do you train for hills (steep ones) when you live on a flat featureless plain?  

On the bike, one way to do it is to go hard into the wind. Opinions expressed here are my own and not my employer’s.

Response:

Hill repeats on flat-land. Freeway overpasses are good. Also running bleachers in the local high-school track. More exotic are bunji and/or parachute running. I’m lucky, I live at 2000 feet with a nice wooded 4 mile trail down to 800 feet. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I haven’t followed this whole thread, but my question is, how do you train for hills (steep ones) when you live on a flat featureless plain?  I plan to do repeats on a pedestrian overpass and feel really silly doing so. Any other suggestions?  Is there some part of CHicago geography that I don’t know about where I can find a close approximation of a hill? Please respond by email or by followup post if you’re so inclined steve

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: : For long climbs, I stay seated for the majority of the climb and only get : out of the saddle to increase my cadence (I will downshift 1-2 gears when I : stand).  I also upshift before most people to get a high cadence at the : bottom part of the hill.  I will lose about 10-20 yds, but usually pass and : drop them at the top by maintaining my high cadence up the hill.  At the : crest of the hill, I downshift and hammer over the top. : : For short climbs or rollers, I downshift one or two gears and usually stand : to power over the top. Where you write "downshift" I believe you mean "upshift", i.e. put the bike in a "bigger" gear (smaller rear cog or bigger chain ring). Joe

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : : For long climbs, I stay seated for the majority of the climb and only get : out of the saddle to increase my cadence (I will downshift 1-2 gears when I : stand).  I also upshift before most people to get a high cadence at the : bottom part of the hill.  I will lose about 10-20 yds, but usually pass and : drop them at the top by maintaining my high cadence up the hill.  At the : crest of the hill, I downshift and hammer over the top. : : For short climbs or rollers, I downshift one or two gears and usually stand : to power over the top. Where you write "downshift" I believe you mean "upshift", i.e. put the bike in a "bigger" gear (smaller rear cog or bigger chain ring).

Exactly!  Thanks for the clarification/correction    W.Patrick Brug, Ph.D.  _-           -_    Los Alamos National Lab -__       __-                                       /    cis:      72410,3372        /  

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<snip I average around 23 to 24 mph in the bike segment and I seem to hold my own on the flats and downhill but get consistently dropped going up hills.   I was wondering what level of training people are doing on the bike, how they train for hills, etc., and what people are doing with their bike setup in terms of bar height realtive to seat height, correct seat position with aero bars, etc.

I don’t do hill specific training, but living in the mountains I get a lot of good hill workouts.  People have told me that I’m a natural climber, maybe its the femur/tibia ratio that I heard about– but I’ve never measured. Here’s what I try to do… If my power if lacking, I lower my saddle 1-2 mm. I scoot back on my seat, a concentrate on pushing with my upper thighs. I only swing my bike when standing.  I also try to keep my weight over the back wheel when standing. For long climbs, I stay seated for the majority of the climb and only get out of the saddle to increase my cadence (I will downshift 1-2 gears when I stand).  I also upshift before most people to get a high cadence at the bottom part of the hill.  I will lose about 10-20 yds, but usually pass and drop them at the top by maintaining my high cadence up the hill.  At the crest of the hill, I downshift and hammer over the top. For short climbs or rollers, I downshift one or two gears and usually stand to power over the top. When I used to live in the ocean flats in the southeast, we’d drive up to 40 miles to go ride some hills at least once every two weeks. Nearly all the preceding observations are emperical in nature.  What works for me might not work for you, but it’s worth experimenting.    W.Patrick Brug, Ph.D.  _-           -_    Los Alamos National Lab -__       __-                                       /    cis:      72410,3372        /  

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I live in a relatively flat area along Lake Michigan ( Milwaukee area) and most of my races are further inland in the rolling hills of Wisconsin.  I have time to bike 2 sometimes 3 times a week.  I am relatively strongest running and swimming.  I have a trek 2100 (traditional frame geometry) with profile aero bars.  Since I’m basically a runner I like to have my seat up high with only a small bend in my knee when fully extended. I average around 23 to 24 mph in the bike segment and I seem to hold my own on the flats and downhill but get consistently dropped going up hills.   I was wondering what level of training people are doing on the bike, how they train for hills, etc., and what people are doing with their bike setup in terms of bar height realtive to seat height, correct seat position with aero bars, etc. Thanks, Jay Urbain Bayside, Wisconsin

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: I live in a relatively flat area along Lake Michigan ( : Milwaukee area) and most of my races : are further inland in the rolling hills of Wisconsin. …. : I was wondering what level of training people are doing on the bike, : how they train for hills, etc.,…. To race in the hills, you should train in the hills.  IMO, there’s no good substitute.  Get as much variety as you can.  If you can only find one good hill, do repeats and vary the gearing.  Accelerate over the top of the hill but spin easily to recover between hard efforts. For me, the secret to riding hills is to maintain momentum.  Pedaling dynamics are critical.  Gravity will find every dead spot in your stroke and punish you for it.  This is very different from riding the flats where you tend to coast through the dead spots. Move into hill work gradually.  This type of workout can be really hard on your knees. Off season weight work (especially squats) can be helpful.  So can pushing a big gear into a tough headwind.  These are not, however, substitutes for hill work. Dave LaPorte U. of Minn.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Stuff about indoor bike hurting knees deleted…. 1) Is there a particular reason they are not used for tri training or are they.  I hardly ever see them mentioned. 2) Is it just because I cant shift gears or that I’m not clipped in. Any response will be appreciated. – BTW anyone who is recovering from a running injury I highly recommend using a Trackmaster it is verrry easy on the joints and frame. Mr. Brown

Mr. Brown.. These are just some things you would want to consider as potential reasons for the knee pain on the indoor bike The geometry and set up of the indoor bike could be very different than your regular road bike. Some of the main differences could be:                                 1. Fore/Aft of Saddle position.       2. Seat height (even a little as 1cm or less can          affect things).       3. Crank length.       4. Pedal style (lack of rotation or inablility for          "normal" pedal stroke i.e. can’t "pull" because your          foot is not fixed to the pedal). All of these factors have been known to cause knee pain.  The lack of fine adjustment of indoor bikes can be a problem.  If you are really concerned, take some measurements of you road bike and compare.   Good luck, John K. PS. Keep the cadence up. Slow cadence can also aggravate knees. (just my opinions)

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Dear well informed tri-people, I occasionally ride the Lifecycles at the gym. In fact at one time I was putting in quite a few hours. I always ride the hill training session on level 8.  I also use them for what I like to call Indoors, swim 1k, Lifecycle hard for 48 min then run 4 miles on the Trackmaster, which I consider a valuable traing tool for myself.  Now, during the summer, I almost exclusivley ride outdoors, which I much rather do.  :^)  However I rode it several times again very hard and my knee hurts a little, I generally have very little knee pain from real cycling. My leg is extended and I keep the cadence at ~90. My friend says I ride it too hard and I should slow down my cadence or move up a level, I respond I feel like I strain too much with a slower cadence and I’m not sure if moving up will hurt more. 1) Is there a particular reason they are not used for tri training or are they.  I hardly ever see them mentioned. 2) Is it just because I cant shift gears or that I’m not clipped in. Any response will be appreciated. – BTW anyone who is recovering from a running injury I highly recommend using a Trackmaster it is verrry easy on the joints and frame. Mr. Brown

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