Question:

@news.hfx.eastlink.ca: So I guess what I really need as an all-in-one "GPS-watch-cell phone-pager-MP3 Player-Gatorade Dispenser." Add a HRM to the list… and that would be one SWEET product! I suppose I could have gotten a Forerunner and a seperate HRM… but the dual watch thing would just be a little too geeky

mmmmm….geeky….oooohhh.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – All of my runs involve hills and mountains.  There are very few flat spots to run.  I measure out certain distances with my car, 12, 15 and 20 miles but would like a more accurate way to do this. Important bit of info there.  A GPS unit requires 4 signals to give you credit for altitude gained or lost.   That makes almost no difference, unless you want an elevation profile, but a GPS will do a pretty bad job at that too (at least as far as running is concerned) Based on measurements I’ve taken with my Timex, I’m thinking that it only catches 3 signals, as I come up short on distance for my hilly workouts, and I’m a flatlander. It seems to be remarkably consistent with my cyclometer (which is pretty accurate) on the flats. I think the errors have nothing to do with the hills. They are more likely to have something to do with how straight the road/course is (maybe you’re going back and forth in your hill workouts, and it’s slicing off distance on your turnarounds, or maybe the road isn’t that straight up the hill) or the quality of satellite reception. If you only get 3 satellites, it *will* adversely affect the accuracy of the unit. FWIW, I have a regular GPS unit, and unless you’re on fairly straight roads, it’s not all that accurate. It’s good enough for logging milage, but you wouldn’t want to use it to measure your speed. Cheers,

Um … OK, I guess I’m lazy, now that I do the math and see that if I climb 800 ft. in a mile, it only shorts me 60 ft., which is, as you say, almost no difference.  There is a reason I never even thought of applying to engin school. The sad thing is you’ve taken away the one lame excuse, except for being 10 lb. overweight, of why I suck so bad on the hills.  Now I actually have to lose weight and train for them.  ;-) Scott

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It has a backlight feature. You can set it to 15 seconds, 30 seconds, 1 minute, 2 minutes, or indefinately. The clarity is excellent. Bettar than my Timex Ironman. That’s what’s so cool about the Forerunner… there is no end to the customizability of the thing. Awesome onboard software. I just wish it had a HRM. If it did… I would have bought one in an instant.

I have an HRM, but I haven’t been using it lately. I really needed to lose a gadget or 2. I’m on-call for our IT deparment on the weekends. Since my long runs are getting into the 12 mile range, I can’t in good conscience leave them hanging for so long, so I need to carry my pager and my cell phone. Of course, this is in addition to the obligatory running paraphernalia, such as MP3 player, GPS device, and Gatorade. I recently purchased a Camelbak Flashflo. It all fits rather niceley along with 45 oz of Gatorade. So I guess what I really need as an all-in-one "GPS-watch-cell phone-pager-MP3 Player-Gatorade Dispenser."    -Phil

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Important bit of info there.  A GPS unit requires 4 signals to give you credit for altitude gained or lost.  Based on measurements I’ve taken with my Timex, I’m thinking that it only catches 3 signals, as I come up short on distance for my hilly workouts, and I’m a flatlander. It seems to be remarkably consistent with my cyclometer (which is pretty accurate) on the flats. I’d be curious to know, in fact, how many signals the Timex uses.

    Let me make sure I have this right.  Your saying that in the hills, its distance measurement is off?  Here in Northeast Tennessee there are nothing but hills and mountains.  Elevation change on my runs are 200 to 1000 feet or more. Actually I am more concerned with distance than with speed.  Once I get my distance logged, I can then check my timer on the watch to figure my actual time per mile.  You can run both the timer and the GPS at the same time, right?     I like the Forerunner.  If I do not get what I want from the Timex, I will check out it out next. — R.Robinson rrockslide"AT"earthlink.net

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The reason I feel that the % grade readings are inacurate is that as I’m going up a long steady grade, the readings are jumping all over. Does it do that on flats also or just on hills? I’m thinking it would do it all the time on the basis that flat is a hill with 0% slope, unless it’s a function of slope. At least with regular GPS’s, I can stand still and watch the location bounce around, occasionally large jumps, but usually small. Hence, I’d expect some jumping in the elevation also. Does the elevation profile that you download later make sense, approximately? I’m mostly interested in totals and maybe occasional hill heights, generally not in real-time. Thanks.

I’m not sure if it does it on the flats. I’m looking at a differnt view on the flats. I have my "custom screen" set to grade, avg pace, and total miles. I only use that screen when I’m going up a hill. But I’ll check it on the flats tomorrow to see if it bounces around at all. The logbook software is not available yet. According to the web site: "Forerunner 201 Logbook software will be available early February 2004." So any day now.   -Phil

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news.ops.worldnet.att.net:   I’ve logged 9 runs with my Garmin. It has only lost a signal once for about a few hundred yards.    -Phil Do you run on enough hills to get a feeling for how accurate (or lack thereof) the altimeter might be for changes in elevation? Or does that require the software, hence nobody knows until Garmin provides that? Dot

The reason I feel that the % grade readings are inacurate is that as I’m going up a long steady grade, the readings are jumping all over. Since the software is simply a log book, I’m not sure if that would correct that. Unless it does the math for you. I would prefer a more accurate real-time reading. The software is supposed to be out early this month. So any time now.    -Phil

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The reason I feel that the % grade readings are inacurate is that as I’m going up a long steady grade, the readings are jumping all over.

Does it do that on flats also or just on hills? I’m thinking it would do it all the time on the basis that flat is a hill with 0% slope, unless it’s a function of slope. At least with regular GPS’s, I can stand still and watch the location bounce around, occasionally large jumps, but usually small. Hence, I’d expect some jumping in the elevation also. Does the elevation profile that you download later make sense, approximately? I’m mostly interested in totals and maybe occasional hill heights, generally not in real-time. Thanks. Dot — "Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

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  I’ve logged 9 runs with my Garmin. It has only lost a signal once for about a few hundred yards.    -Phil

Do you run on enough hills to get a feeling for how accurate (or lack thereof) the altimeter might be for changes in elevation? Or does that require the software, hence nobody knows until Garmin provides that? Dot — "Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

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    Has anyone used the Ironman Triathalon GPS watch model 3501? It gives you distance, time and speed.  Just curious about quality and limitations. Wal-Mart has them at a reasonable price. — R.Robinson rrockslideATearthlink.net

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Hi…  I’m selling mine (I’m in the UK) Even though it works superbly well I find the wearing the GPS unit on my arm or waist a little uncomfortable. I did a 4 Miler & a 8 Mile run and kept having to adjust the thing. I know many people don’t have a problem with it but it’s just not for me. Unfortunately, I couldn’t try before I bought it and it’s okay for a mile or so but it just got too irritating for me. Anyway, I decided to sell now as new rather than wait! Only bought it last Wednesday! It’s currently on ebay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2688535357&categor… Regards, Mike

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     Has anyone used the Ironman Triathalon GPS watch model 3501? It gives you distance, time and speed.  Just curious about quality and limitations. Wal-Mart has them at a reasonable price. — R.Robinson rrockslideATearthlink.net

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Hi  I have had mine for just about a year. Have not had a problem with arm band. The one fault I have are the very sketchy instructions. Another problem I have is that I run early in the morning and can’t read the watch readouts; i.e pace or mileage accumulated. This watch has come down in price because they have a new watch out which includes a HRM.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     Has anyone used the Ironman Triathalon GPS watch model 3501? It gives you distance, time and speed.  Just curious about quality and limitations. Wal-Mart has them at a reasonable price. — R.Robinson rrockslideATearthlink.net

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Hey thanks for the responses.  I have ordered one and thought I would get feed back on its performance.  If it is not up to par, I can always send it back. All of my runs involve hills and mountains.  There are very few flat spots to run.  I measure out certain distances with my car, 12, 15 and 20 miles but would like a more accurate way to do this. The one I ordered did not have the HRM strap with it.  Wal-mart has them for $138. — R.R rrockslideATearthlink.net

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All of my runs involve hills and mountains.  There are very few flat spots to run.  I measure out certain distances with my car, 12, 15 and 20 miles but would like a more accurate way to do this.

Important bit of info there.  A GPS unit requires 4 signals to give you credit for altitude gained or lost.  Based on measurements I’ve taken with my Timex, I’m thinking that it only catches 3 signals, as I come up short on distance for my hilly workouts, and I’m a flatlander. It seems to be remarkably consistent with my cyclometer (which is pretty accurate) on the flats. I’d be curious to know, in fact, how many signals the Timex uses. Scott

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All of my runs involve hills and mountains.  There are very few flat spots to run.  I measure out certain distances with my car, 12, 15 and 20 miles but would like a more accurate way to do this. Important bit of info there.  A GPS unit requires 4 signals to give you credit for altitude gained or lost.  Based on measurements I’ve taken with my Timex, I’m thinking that it only catches 3 signals, as I come up short on distance for my hilly workouts, and I’m a flatlander. It seems to be remarkably consistent with my cyclometer (which is pretty accurate) on the flats. I’d be curious to know, in fact, how many signals the Timex uses.

        I’ve heard three.   That’s anecdotal, however.         I keep eyeing the Garmin Forerunner 201 though, the price and         accuracy is pretty appealing.                                                 -jeremy — —   Jeremy Hallum, System Manager , Astronomy, University of Michigan                     "Audentis Fortuna Iuvat"

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All of my runs involve hills and mountains.  There are very few flat spots to run.  I measure out certain distances with my car, 12, 15 and 20 miles but would like a more accurate way to do this. Important bit of info there.  A GPS unit requires 4 signals to give you credit for altitude gained or lost.  

That makes almost no difference, unless you want an elevation profile, but a GPS will do a pretty bad job at that too (at least as far as running is concerned) Based on measurements I’ve taken with my Timex, I’m thinking that it only catches 3 signals, as I come up short on distance for my hilly workouts, and I’m a flatlander. It seems to be remarkably consistent with my cyclometer (which is pretty accurate) on the flats.

I think the errors have nothing to do with the hills. They are more likely to have something to do with how straight the road/course is (maybe you’re going back and forth in your hill workouts, and it’s slicing off distance on your turnarounds, or maybe the road isn’t that straight up the hill) or the quality of satellite reception. If you only get 3 satellites, it *will* adversely affect the accuracy of the unit. FWIW, I have a regular GPS unit, and unless you’re on fairly straight roads, it’s not all that accurate. It’s good enough for logging milage, but you wouldn’t want to use it to measure your speed. Cheers, — Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – All of my runs involve hills and mountains.  There are very few flat spots to run.  I measure out certain distances with my car, 12, 15 and 20 miles but would like a more accurate way to do this. Important bit of info there.  A GPS unit requires 4 signals to give you credit for altitude gained or lost.  Based on measurements I’ve taken with my Timex, I’m thinking that it only catches 3 signals, as I come up short on distance for my hilly workouts, and I’m a flatlander. It seems to be remarkably consistent with my cyclometer (which is pretty accurate) on the flats. I’d be curious to know, in fact, how many signals the Timex uses.      I’ve heard three.   That’s anecdotal, however.      I keep eyeing the Garmin Forerunner 201 though, the price and      accuracy is pretty appealing.

Three is correct. I bought the Garmin Forerunner 201 a few weeks ago for $124 at Amazon.com. So far, I love it. It’s probably within 20 feet accuracy (just a guess, havn’t tested this). The only thing that isn’t as accurate is the "real time" measurment, such as current pace or speed and hill grade. In order to get a good reading on pace, you should only look at your average pace, or your lap pace. I have mine set to count a lap every mile, so this is pretty accurate. A few times it had trouble picking up a signal at the start of my run, so it wasn’t logging any miles for a while, just elapsed time. Now I’m careful to make sure it has a signal before I start my run. But the pleasure of not having to measure my routes is pretty neat. Just head out the door and run anywhere.    -Phil

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   I keep eyeing the Garmin Forerunner 201 though, the price and    accuracy is pretty appealing.

Here’s another forerunner review. http://www.eskimo.com/~joelm/forerunner201.htm check out the image partway down – the ultimate for geeks (at least with present gadgets – probably be in one gadget some day) Dot — "Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

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check out the image partway down – the ultimate for geeks (at least with present gadgets – probably be in one gadget some day)

Excellent review, and thanks for the link.  A couple of things that Joel did not address though — does it have a backlight feature and if so, how is the clarity in the dark?  How long does it take to get a signal and does it lose its signal at all?

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4ax.com: check out the image partway down – the ultimate for geeks (at least with present gadgets – probably be in one gadget some day) Excellent review, and thanks for the link.  A couple of things that Joel did not address though — does it have a backlight feature and if so, how is the clarity in the dark?  How long does it take to get a signal and does it lose its signal at all?

It has a backlight feature. You can set it to 15 seconds, 30 seconds, 1 minute, 2 minutes, or indefinately. The clarity is excellent. Bettar than my Timex Ironman. The first time you turn it on it takes about 15 minutes to find the 3 satellites (minumum required to function properly). After that, it will only take a minute to locate the satellites, unless you move more than 500 miles away. I’ve logged 9 runs with my Garmin. It has only lost a signal once for about a few hundred yards.    -Phil

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Question:

For those that competed in the Callaway tri yesterday, did any of you think that the swim and run distances were short? The swim did not at all seem to be a full 1kilometer and the run seemed shorter than 5 miles… I was expecting to swim in about 18-19 minutes and came out of the water at 14 minutes flat – that just seems way to fast for my swimming ability!! As well, I sure didn’t feel as though I were running sub 7:30 minute miles…?? Any one else also have times that seemed to good to be true?? Mike

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Michael wrote in For those that competed in the Callaway tri yesterday, did any of you think that the swim and run distances were short? The swim did not at all seem to be a full 1kilometer and the run seemed shorter than 5 miles… I was expecting to swim in about 18-19 minutes and came out of the water at 14 minutes flat – that just seems way to fast for my swimming ability!!

The swim was probably 100 meters short of the 1000 meters. The lead guy did about a 9:30, but he is a pure swimmer converting to triathlon. It has been short ever since they got rid of the first leg of the swim and started with an "in-water" start. Since they changed the course around this year, and used bouys instead of the old swimming area ropes, they could have corrected it. As well, I sure didn’t feel as though I were running sub 7:30 minute miles…??

I should have hit a 6:20 pace, but it came up 6:00, so it was probably short. It should not have been short, since it is out and back. They did change the first part though, so,…. My main problem was the numbered card "no-timing" system. I started in the second wave. A guy named Charlie won my AG, and I was second, 35-39. When they awarded the top 5 overall awards and called out times, we realized we had been jobbed out of the 4th and 5th overall awards. Since we started in the second wave 2 minutes back, we did not get the number 4 and 5 cards, which is how they awarded the top awards. There were problems with this last year. I understand Callaway jacked his site fee way up, but he needs to spend money on a true timing system. Tim

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The swim was short I think somewhere around 800 meters, the run was correct. I measured it with my bike and it was 4.8 miles as advertised which was 8K.

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The swim was short I think somewhere around 800 meters, the run was correct. I measured it with my bike and it was 4.8 miles as advertised which was 8K.

8km is not 4.8 miles! It is actually 4.97… a big difference. — David (in Hamilton, Ont) "You can’t burn out if you’ve never caught fire." http://www.angelfire.com/nc/swstudio/racing.html –

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Question:

He’s over at rec.sports.triathlon these causing the same scene that we dealt with earlier. I guess sales are down. You’re right, it is rubbish. — David (in Hamilton, Ont) "You can’t burn out if you’ve never caught fire." http://www.angelfire.com/nc/swstudio/racing.html – – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jon, will you quit posting the same rubbish with a slightly revised first couple of paragraphs every couple of months – we’ve already done this article to death here. Just go read the archives and imagine you have something new to say.

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we’ve been thru’ this here before. less than a couple of months ago. jobs – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thought this would provoke the usual outrage. If anyone wants to print this

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Jon, will you quit posting the same rubbish with a slightly revised first couple of paragraphs every couple of months – we’ve already done this article to death here. Just go read the archives and imagine you have something new to say. — Regards, Barry Running & Stuff: http://distancerunner.tmfweb.nl "The woods are lovely, dark and deep; but I have training logs to keep; and miles to run before I sleep".

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thought this would provoke the usual outrage. If anyone wants to print this unpublished article, or reproduce it on a website, please send me a note. I will be most obliging. ****** 9 August 2001 The End of the British Empire: Why a Brit (Black or White) Will Never Again Hold a Distance Running Record By Jon Entine When the gun goes off for the men

Question:

:This is getting kinky……but very interesting…. :spank me…ouch…yes….again…ouch…repeat : : <shaking head…and we thought you might have gotten all that kinkiness out of : you by perving the women on the beach.   : Welcome back. : Mary I bet Doug was lurking, until we put out this kink as a bait. It worked, Jen! How was Maine, Doug? —  Oleg

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<shaking head…and we thought you might have gotten all that kinkiness out of you by perving the women on the beach.

A few weeks roaming the beach amid the scantily clad merely rekindled what did not need to be restoked. Welcome back.

Merci! — Caveat Lector!

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I bet Doug was lurking, until we put out this kink as a bait. It worked, Jen!

I’m not telling. You can take the boy off the farm but not the farm out of the boy. How was Maine, Doug?

Run, bike….bike, run… sip a brew…ogle.. nap..burp…eat..burp….ogle.. Need I say more? The Beach to Beacon race was a great experience. I managed to hold a sub 7 pace and keep my drool cup and teeth in place. It’s been nearly two years since I ran a road race. I was just getting my motor running when the finish line showed up. Back to the grind stone… — Caveat Lector!

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How was Maine, Doug? Run, bike….bike, run… sip a brew…ogle.. nap..burp…eat..burp….ogle.. Need I say more?

Except for all that biking and running, it sounds like time well spent… Mike Tennent "IronPenguin" Ironman Canada ‘98 16:17:03 Great Floridian ‘99, 15:??:??

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And what she plans on doing with them. <GRIN This is getting kinky……but very interesting…. spank me…ouch…yes….again…ouch…repeat

Ooooh. Whip me, beat me, show me that you care… Mike "Leather and Lycra" Tennent "IronPenguin" Ironman Canada ‘98 16:17:03 Great Floridian ‘99, 15:??:??

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lol…Mike Tennant…and here I thought you were the GENTLEMAN of rec.running…HUH? I guess I’m just new here. Mary – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Ooooh. Whip me, beat me, show me that you care… Mike "Leather and Lycra" Tennent "IronPenguin" Ironman Canada ‘98 16:17:03 Great Floridian ‘99, 15:??:??

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And what she plans on doing with them. <GRIN

This is getting kinky……but very interesting…. spank me…ouch…yes….again…ouch…repeat — Caveat Lector!

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This is getting kinky……but very interesting…. spank me…ouch…yes….again…ouch…repeat

<shaking head…and we thought you might have gotten all that kinkiness out of you by perving the women on the beach.   Welcome back. Mary

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+ one nurse standing there with charges paddles in case of defib (a real confidence builder).

Yikes! One look at those and I’m history. Mike "VO2 Max? Who cares? Don’t come near me with those paddles" Tennent "IronPenguin" Ironman Canada ‘98 16:17:03 Great Floridian ‘99, 15:??:??

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: + one nurse standing there :with charges paddles in case of defib (a real confidence builder). : : Yikes! One look at those and I’m history. : Mike "VO2 Max? Who cares? Don’t come near me with those paddles" Depends on the nurse of course… —  Oleg

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And what she plans on doing with them. <GRIN     Mark — Life is the great experiment. Each of us is an experiment of one-observer and subject-making choices, living with them, recording the effects.  - Dr. George Sheehan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : + one nurse standing there :with charges paddles in case of defib (a real confidence builder). : : Yikes! One look at those and I’m history. : Mike "VO2 Max? Who cares? Don’t come near me with those paddles" Depends on the nurse of course… — Oleg

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: There seemed to be a recent NG interest in VO2 max.  I’m taking a 3rd and : final : stress test and VO2 test in three months.  While I understand a test is quite : expensive, if you are interested in knowing interesting and irrelevant data, : hospitals and universities are frequently seeking test subjects for research : studies or clinical trials. U of South Carolina for one has a Kinesiology : department that does frequent VO2 max testing and often requires volunteers.   : : Jennifer – and in New England there’s a hint of autumn in the air : Can anyone clue me in as to how much these tests cost?  I’d guess that : stress tests, being much more common than VO2 max tests, would be the : less expensive of the two.  And also, what are the best places to go : for such a test?  I suppose some types of institutions would be better : suited to providing stress testing tailored for athletes rather than : at-risk patients. : Thanks for any ideas and input. : AD LacTest cost only $30 or smth http://www.runningnetwork.com/rn_display.phtml?id=7432 —  Oleg

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[It's not the heat it's the humidity snipped] Yesterday was my long ride – 50 miles in 90+. Saturday I struggled through a 10 mile run at mid-day.  10 weeks until my next  ironman: 7 weeks of hell and then 3 weeks of taper.

Makes me glad I swim like a brick: no possibility of triathlon torture.  All I have to do is run a bit, kick back, eat chocolates and watch Iron folks torture themselves. Jennifer – "Pedal Faster!!! Only 7 weeks."  Ah…raspberry filled. "I said FASTER!!"

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Looks like things are progressing! A true track fanatic, if I ever saw one!

The track is going well; better than the LSD.  I might try some master’s mile races this fall.  Starting to crack 79 in the repetitive quarters. Contrary to the press reports, my Wed. evening ’sudden knee pain’ that lasted 3 days has not knocked me out of the race . I took my own recent advice (funny how that happens)

Gremblins!  They exist and they cause mystery knee pain and shin splints. I’ve seen them on the side of the road before-not a pretty sight. and rested/treated the knee for 4 days.

Whimp…no pain no gain. Now, back to ‘work’ 65 degrees and too many yellow leaves in the back yard…

Jennifer – don’t eat yellow [leaves or] snow (Frank Zappa?)

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Jennifer – and in New England there’s a hint of autumn in the air

Bah. In Georgia there’s a hint of, uh,  summer in the air. At 7:00 a.m, the humidity was 100% (Weather Channel.) Yesterday was my long ride – 50 miles in 90+. Saturday I struggled through a 10 mile run at mid-day.  10 weeks until my next  ironman: 7 weeks of hell and then 3 weeks of taper. Mike Tennent "IronPenguin" Ironman Canada ‘98 16:17:03 Great Floridian ‘99, 15:??:??

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As to VO2 tests – I wonder what kind of variations you got those 3 times you took it? And what;s the advertised error margins?

Don’t know what the margin for error is, but the "relative" VO2 was 51, 57, 55 for June, July and Aug, respectively.  The testers told me that the clinical studies involving aerobic testing are one of the more difficult clinical studies to duplicate:  much variability between dates and subjects. Jennifer

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Can anyone clue me in as to how much these tests cost?

Someone in an earlier post claimed a cost of $300 – $400:  a half hour test, 2 technicians running the test + cost of equipment + one nurse standing there with charges paddles in case of defib (a real confidence builder). I’d guess that stress tests, being much more common than VO2 max tests, would be the less expensive of the two.  And also, what are the best places to go for such a test?  I suppose some types of institutions would be better suited to providing stress testing tailored for athletes rather than at-risk patients.

At medical schools (Tufts for example) the bulletin boards generally have clinical trials posted and seek volunteers.  That’s where I have gone to find interesting testing:  i.e. cholesterol studies, endurance studies. They have all the necessary equipment and skills. The VO2 max testing, as opposed to just the stress test requires additional equipment, and Kinesiology Departments at large universities are equiped to test. Jennifer – irrelevant physiological data ‘R us

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mon        -0- Tues       4 slow jogging Wed        .5 warm up  then [400m; 600m; 600m; 200] x 3;  3.1 cool    down (total around 9.0 miles) Thurs      -0- Fri                5.8 mod Sat        5       mod Sun        12.9 in racing flat (oooooo…magic shoes!). Low mile recuperating week, but with some good track work to make life interesting. There seemed to be a recent NG interest in VO2 max.  I’m taking a 3rd and final stress test and VO2 test in three months.  While I understand a test is quite expensive, if you are interested in knowing interesting and irrelevant data, hospitals and universities are frequently seeking test subjects for research studies or clinical trials. U of South Carolina for one has a Kinesiology department that does frequent VO2 max testing and often requires volunteers. Jennifer – and in New England there’s a hint of autumn in the air

Looks like things are progressing! A true track fanatic, if I ever saw one! Contrary to the press reports, my Wed. evening ’sudden knee pain’ that lasted 3 days has not knocked me out of the race . I took my own recent advice (funny how that happens) and rested/treated the knee for 4 days. Now, back to ‘work’ 65 degrees and too many yellow leaves in the back yard… — … tramps like us, Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

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: Low mile recuperating week, but with some good track work to make life : interesting. I’d rather do 2 track workouts a week with 15 miles a week than run 70 miles per week and no speed. As to VO2 tests – I wonder what kind of variations you got those 3 times you took it? And what;s the advertised error margins? In any case, LT would be a much interesting number to take a look at. : stress test and VO2 test in three months.  While I understand a test is quite : expensive, if you are interested in knowing interesting and irrelevant data, : hospitals and universities are frequently seeking test subjects for research : studies or clinical trials. U of South Carolina for one has a Kinesiology : department that does frequent VO2 max testing and often requires volunteers.   : Jennifer – and in New England there’s a hint of autumn in the air —  Oleg

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There seemed to be a recent NG interest in VO2 max.  I’m taking a 3rd and final stress test and VO2 test in three months.  While I understand a test is quite expensive, if you are interested in knowing interesting and irrelevant data, hospitals and universities are frequently seeking test subjects for research studies or clinical trials. U of South Carolina for one has a Kinesiology department that does frequent VO2 max testing and often requires volunteers.   Jennifer – and in New England there’s a hint of autumn in the air

Can anyone clue me in as to how much these tests cost?  I’d guess that stress tests, being much more common than VO2 max tests, would be the less expensive of the two.  And also, what are the best places to go for such a test?  I suppose some types of institutions would be better suited to providing stress testing tailored for athletes rather than at-risk patients. Thanks for any ideas and input. AD

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Mon     -0- Tues    4 slow jogging Wed     .5 warm up  then [400m; 600m; 600m; 200] x 3;  3.1 cool                 down (total around 9.0 miles) Thurs   -0- Fri             5.8 mod Sat     5       mod Sun     12.9 in racing flat (oooooo…magic shoes!). Low mile recuperating week, but with some good track work to make life interesting. There seemed to be a recent NG interest in VO2 max.  I’m taking a 3rd and final stress test and VO2 test in three months.  While I understand a test is quite expensive, if you are interested in knowing interesting and irrelevant data, hospitals and universities are frequently seeking test subjects for research studies or clinical trials. U of South Carolina for one has a Kinesiology department that does frequent VO2 max testing and often requires volunteers.   Jennifer – and in New England there’s a hint of autumn in the air

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Question:

What is the location of the breakfast? The Kona Ranch House, 75-5653 Ololi Street.

Don’t know who I should be sending this RSVP to. Count me in for the breakfast, also my roommate please. He’s a non RSTer but, I’ll let him sit with us. Kona Ken

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Due to a conflict with the women’s masters breakfast the same morning, I’m changing the RST breakfast to Wednesday morning – 9am. Please R.S.V.P. by Wednesday if you plan to attend. I need to confirm our reservation before I leave town. Thanks, Meika

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: Due to a conflict with the women’s masters breakfast the same morning, : I’m changing the RST breakfast to Wednesday morning – 9am. Please : R.S.V.P. by Wednesday if you plan to attend. I need to confirm our : reservation before I leave town. This is Kona, right?  Ack, I don’t arrive until Wednesday evening  :( Jason — Jason Mayfield, Arlington VA Persist, Persevere, Deny, Pursue, Pain, Survive, Ignore, Endure, Strive, Laugh, Cry, Live, Prevail, Scream, Sweat, Bleed, Sustain, Learn, Ascend, Give, Get, GO!  342 Days Until Ironman Canada ‘99

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I arrive at 11:00 am…..too late for breakfast Hey Jason, where are you staying? Lynne – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -: Due to a conflict with the women’s masters breakfast the same morning, : I’m changing the RST breakfast to Wednesday morning – 9am. Please : R.S.V.P. by Wednesday if you plan to attend. I need to confirm our : reservation before I leave town. This is Kona, right?  Ack, I don’t arrive until Wednesday evening  :( Jason

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What is the location of the breakfast? Thanks Keith — Ironman Triathlon Wetsuits Website: www.ironmanwetsuits.com toll free order line: 800-897-6464 international calls: 804-288-6000 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Due to a conflict with the women’s masters breakfast the same morning, I’m changing the RST breakfast to Wednesday morning – 9am. Please R.S.V.P. by Wednesday if you plan to attend. I need to confirm our reservation before I leave town. Thanks, Meika

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: Hey Jason, where are you staying? I’ll be at the King Kam, which will therefor by default be party central I just got back from the ticket office, and have plane tickets in hand! Let the party begin! Aloha, Jason — Jason Mayfield, Arlington VA Persist, Persevere, Deny, Pursue, Pain, Survive, Ignore, Endure, Strive, Laugh, Cry, Live, Prevail, Scream, Sweat, Bleed, Sustain, Learn, Ascend, Give, Get, GO!  342 Days Until Ironman Canada ‘99

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What is the location of the breakfast?

The Kona Ranch House, 75-5653 Ololi Street.

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Wohoo, Party! King Kam it is!  Name the time for the festivities to begin! this race, I’m not hiding out in my hotel room for race prep! Laura – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : Hey Jason, where are you staying? I’ll be at the King Kam, which will therefor by default be party central I just got back from the ticket office, and have plane tickets in hand! Let the party begin! Aloha, Jason — Jason Mayfield, Arlington VA Persist, Persevere, Deny, Pursue, Pain, Survive, Ignore, Endure, Strive, Laugh, Cry, Live, Prevail, Scream, Sweat, Bleed, Sustain, Learn, Ascend, Give, Get, GO!  342 Days Until Ironman Canada ‘99

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Me too, I don’t get to Kona ’til 8:00 p.m. Wed. night, rats. Oh well, see ya’all at the carbo-loading party. We Are having an Rst table — right??? BTW, having done a week of quality stuff, it’s taper time again! Love being lazy. Laura – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I arrive at 11:00 am…..too late for breakfast Hey Jason, where are you staying? Lynne : Due to a conflict with the women’s masters breakfast the same morning, : I’m changing the RST breakfast to Wednesday morning – 9am. Please : R.S.V.P. by Wednesday if you plan to attend. I need to confirm our : reservation before I leave town. This is Kona, right?  Ack, I don’t arrive until Wednesday evening  :( Jason

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: Me too, I don’t get to Kona ’til 8:00 p.m. Wed. night, rats. Oh well, see : ya’all at the carbo-loading party. We Are having an Rst table — right??? We certainly should!  Does anyone know if it’s possible to get tickets to the party?  I wouldn’t want to miss out… Jason — Jason Mayfield, Arlington VA Persist, Persevere, Deny, Pursue, Pain, Survive, Ignore, Endure, Strive, Laugh, Cry, Live, Prevail, Scream, Sweat, Bleed, Sustain, Learn, Ascend, Give, Get, GO!  342 Days Until Ironman Canada ‘99

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Cool.  Things in Kona are still pretty quiet.  I expect to see a lot more tri-types arrive Saturday and Sunday. Right now, (at 10:45PM HST) it is 81 degrees, and has been warm all week.  The water temp is perfect, but there is a lot of chop and swells due to a storm out to sea.  The surfers are loving it.  I am told that it’ll pass in a couple days.  Will it stop me from swimming in the morning…no way. BTW, the Kona Ranch house is a great choice for breakfast.  Make sure you have a BIG appetite. Augie Calabrese The Ironman Diaries are at: www.augie.calabrese.net – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Due to a conflict with the women’s masters breakfast the same morning, I’m changing the RST breakfast to Wednesday morning – 9am. Please R.S.V.P. by Wednesday if you plan to attend. I need to confirm our reservation before I leave town. Thanks, Meika

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Question:

I dont think you can claim the cities with large cycling populations as being cycling friendly as well. It stands to reason that the more cyclists there are, the more they will echo the general population, ergo obnoxious behavior, ‘I own the road’ etc. ; groups formed for the sake of forming a group tend to average the faculties anyway. You may, of course, try to distinguish between real cyclists and the weekend warriors though.

When I posted my list I pondered that.  First off, I not only thought of the city, but the whole metro area.  Seattle is a nice city to train in as it hardly ever snows, and there is a plethora of bike trails, and areas that are closed to cars for interval training. The problem with Seattle is the total lack for Triathlon Shops. As to San Diego, if you have not been there as a triathlete, you owe your self a visit, as it is Mecca. It hosts more races, more shops and more folks training than you could shake a aerobar at. Rob — Rob Blomquist aka TriDog Seattle, WA http://www2.jps.net/~robbo

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would say: San Diego, CA Eugene, OR Victoria, BC Seattle, WA In about that order. I thought that Corvallis, OR was exceptional as well!    I would have to add state college, pa to the equation.  The only drawback is that we have a winter.

And it would be difficult to move State College to the West Coast…  It may be one of the better East coast places to train, but I’d have to say the Baltimore area would be pretty competitive in that category as well.  However, I know I don’t plan on – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – training hard core year around so the winters are nice.  And having the winters off don’t seam to hurt the local fast guys – I’ve run with the course record holder at the Great Floridian and the Florida Challenge, as well as a former member of the Junior National team and 3rd amateur at Mrs. T’s, and QR (or at least he used to be) sponsored Mac Martin. I’ve also heard that Jeff Devlin use to train here.  And of the first 9 members of PSU tri club 4 have turned pro.    The bike riding around here is great.  You can get in relatively flat rides if you like or you can run up and down the ridges all day.  Also there are enough people in the area that there are secondary roads that are paved decently but you don’t have to worry about cars.  Running wise there are probably close to 50 miles of trails within running distance of my dorm with more great trails available by car.  Plus there are enough people to train with. Matt

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I dont think you can claim the cities with large cycling populations as being cycling friendly as well. It stands to reason that the more cyclists there are, the more they will echo the general population, ergo obnoxious behavior, ‘I own the road’ etc. ; groups formed for the sake of forming a group tend to average the faculties anyway. You may, of course, try to distinguish between real cyclists and the weekend warriors though. Probably the honours for being cycling-friendly go to the smaller towns such as that stated by dan.wachs. Out here, in West Lafayette (a college town) one finds the student population (most of which observes the bicycle as a transportation medium everyday) as being way more assertive (read what-are-you-doing-on-the-road) than the locals/farmers you meet on the road, and the riding gets better the farther you head out. Demonstrations such as critical mass rides are a statement of bike popularity, but I doubt if they actually lead to bike-friendliness. But then, maybe bike-awareness is a whole different thing from bike-friendliness anyway. Different means for different goals I suppose. Ummh.. did I go off on a tangent? San Diego, CA Eugene, OR Victoria, BC Seattle, WA In about that order. I thought that Corvallis, OR was exceptional as well!    I would have to add state college, pa to the equation.  The only drawback is that we have a winter.  However, I know I don’t plan on

<snip

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– !!! Please remove ".nospam" from the address when email !!!  harekrsnausanet Hare Krishna Movement http://www.earthcorp.com/krsna Pi Water, Best Water Filter, Health Food http://www.earthcorp.com/harekrsna

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I would say: San Diego, CA Eugene, OR Victoria, BC Seattle, WA In about that order. — Rob Blomquist aka TriDog Seattle, WA http://www2.jps.net/~robbo

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I would say: San Diego, CA Eugene, OR Victoria, BC Seattle, WA In about that order.

I thought that Corvallis, OR was exceptional as well! Dan

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would say: San Diego, CA Eugene, OR Victoria, BC Seattle, WA In about that order. I thought that Corvallis, OR was exceptional as well!

        I would have to add state college, pa to the equation.  The only drawback is that we have a winter.  However, I know I don’t plan on training hard core year around so the winters are nice.  And having the winters off don’t seam to hurt the local fast guys – I’ve run with the course record holder at the Great Floridian and the Florida Challenge, as well as a former member of the Junior National team and 3rd amateur at Mrs. T’s, and QR (or at least he used to be) sponsored Mac Martin. I’ve also heard that Jeff Devlin use to train here.  And of the first 9 members of PSU tri club 4 have turned pro.         The bike riding around here is great.  You can get in relatively flat rides if you like or you can run up and down the ridges all day.  Also there are enough people in the area that there are secondary roads that are paved decently but you don’t have to worry about cars.  Running wise there are probably close to 50 miles of trails within running distance of my dorm with more great trails available by car.  Plus there are enough people to train with. Matt

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Question:

Definitely Runners Roost (Denver-Boulder) and the Louisville Cyclery is a close second. Steve Cavalli

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In Charlotte, NC:  Bicycles South J. Byron Walthall, Jr. Charlotte, NC, USA

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Kieths Tri Shop, Travelers Rest, SC.  KTS has a great selection of clothing, accessories and hardware.  Kieth is super to talk with will always give you valuable information.  I always make ampoint to visit his booth at any race or expo KTS will be set up. Roswell Bikes, Roswell, GA   RB has good selection of goodies for triathletes.  Cannondale/Trek.  These guys jump through hoops for you. Usually get my bike worked on (when I try and cannot get it right) and bike stuff there too, tools, accesories etc.  RB got my delailur working right after another shop tried and could not get it right. Free Flight, Marietta, GA  Only Atlanta shop (to my knowledge) to carry Q-Roo bikes. Also carry Litespeed/Trek.  Good knowledgable staff.  SIDI-T shoes.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Still grinding away on research for The 1997 Triathlon Sourcebook. Would like to know of everyone’s favorite, local triathlon, bike or running shop. Hearing from many people in many places would provide a "reality check"for me  on the list of 300 retail stores that I have developed, for shops in the US, Canada and beyond. So … where do triathletes like to go for their "stuff?" (Or, which sources do you mail-order from?). Thanks, Katherine Williams The 1997 Triathlon Sourcebook i’ll probably be the 400th person to say so, but Nytro in Encinitas, Ca is the obvious choice. What might not be as obvious is what great guys kevin and jim are down there. helen’s cycles on lincoln blvd. in venice, ca builds some NICE road bikes if you don’t need or want tri geometry.

BOYCOTT NYTRO!  BOYCOTT NYTRO!  BOYCOTT NYTRO!  BOYCOTT NYTRO!     I think we should all boycott Nytro!  I had my wet suit lost at Iromman Canada and thus ordered a new full QR Hydro wetsuit from Nytro for an upcomming race (Alcatraz Challenge).  Before I left for the race my wetsuit was returned by IMC and thus I used my old wetsuit for Alcatraz.  This was all explained to Nytro as a possiibility when I ordered my QR and they said no problem!  We will take the return if your suit is returned from IMC.  But we I sent the suit back they said it had been altered and wouldn’t take it back.  I talked to them on the phone several times and they refused to let me return the suit.  I will never buy anything else from Nytro nor will several of my Tri friends!   BOYCOTT NYTRO!  BOYCOTT NYTRO!  BOYCOTT NYTRO!  BOYCOTT NYTRO!

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All Bicycles in Deerfield Beach, Florida (954-428-2683) for bikes and bike stuff. Richard is a really good bloke, and is very enthusiastic about his tri team. For shoes and clothing, and swim stuff,  Running Wild in Fort Lauderdale         (954-492-0077) is excellent, very knowledgeable and supports Sylvia Corbett on the ITU tour. BTW-both are anti-drafting !! Cheers Barry

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Phidippidies – Atlanta 2 stores – Jeff Galloways answer to a pure store for runners in the Atlanta area.  Excellent staff, all runners.  Really take time to assure fit. Trainers, racing flats and track shoes from Nike, Sacony, Mizuno, Asics Will watch you run and evaluate your stride for the best type of shoe. They always let you take shoes for a test drive around the block.  So if you are narowed down to 2 shoes, a test drive will let you decide which will give the best comfort. The attitude is, regardless of what brand name the shoe is they want a good fit.  For example, my trainers are Nike and my flats are Mizuno.  I orginally wanted Nike flats, after the test drive the Mizuno were far superior fit. They know how important happy feet are.

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Keith’s Triathlon.  No contest. Multi-Man

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Louisville Cyclery in Louisville Colorado takes the cake.  Located right outside of Boulder, with the best staff in the world.  I didn’t hesitate to take my Trek racing bike there (until I moved to Boston, where I discovered that the commute was rather long), and wouldn’t hesitate to take my Lotus bike, either (assuming I owned one, that is).  Their mechanical service was exceptional. Train Smart to Race Hard! -chris Chris Ramsey Boston, MA

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Still grinding away on research for The 1997 Triathlon Sourcebook. Would like to know of everyone’s favorite, local triathlon, bike or running shop. Hearing from many people in many places would provide a "reality check"for me  on the list of 300 retail stores that I have developed, for shops in the US, Canada and beyond. So … where do triathletes like to go for their "stuff?" (Or, which sources do you mail-order from?). Thanks, Katherine Williams The 1997 Triathlon Sourcebook

i’ll probably be the 400th person to say so, but Nytro in Encinitas, Ca is the obvious choice. What might not be as obvious is what great guys kevin and jim are down there. helen’s cycles on lincoln blvd. in venice, ca builds some NICE road bikes if you don’t need or want tri geometry.

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Briarcliff Cycles.in Atlanta. 404-636-1928 ask for Scott cheers! Sam

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Would like to know of everyone’s favorite, local triathlon, bike or running shop. In the Philadelphia area… Steve’s Multisport, Norristown: Plus: Great prices and service, very tri-focused Minus: Experiencing some growing pains Runner’s Edge, Paoli: Plus: Good selection, very personal service, place to go for race forms or to talk running Minus: Prices Performance Bike, Paoli: Plus: Great prices, good mechanics Minus: Generic bike shop, few tri-heads — "The wrinkles only go where the smiles have been." — J. Buffett

I agree with the first two.  Steve’s shop is, of course, IMO great.  Ed and wife Fran at Runner’s Edge are also terrific – knowlegable, good people who support several local running events. Can’t say anything for Performance though… -hug

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Still grinding away on research for The 1997 Triathlon Sourcebook. Would like to know of everyone’s favorite, local triathlon, bike or

running shop. In Miami there are not that many Tri shops but there are some decent bike shops (Mack Cycle, Bike Tech) Running Shops in Miami:  The best hands down is Foot Works in South Miami.  Tons of running experience and great shoes. So … where do triathletes like to go for their "stuff?" (Or, which

sources do you mail-order from?). Mail Order:   Bicycle Sports in Shreveport – helpful bunch of guys, ask for Dave. Steve’s Multisport – Very knowledgable Dig Me Sports out of St. Petersburg -small mail order but very attentive to your needs Hope it helps. Regards, Carlos Torres de Navarra Coral Gables, Florida

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Let me second the choice of Mission Bay.  They are great!

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In the Denver-Boulder area, I buy my shoes at Runners Roost, and my clothing at the Hind outlet store.

Hi, Chuck, I lived in Boulder for nine years (through ‘91), but the outlet store (Hind) wasn’t in operation then. Do you have a phone number for it? Would like to include them (I didn’t know of it before). Thanks, Katherine

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Would like to know of everyone’s favorite, local triathlon, bike or running shop.

In the Philadelphia area… Steve’s Multisport, Norristown: Plus: Great prices and service, very tri-focused Minus: Experiencing some growing pains Runner’s Edge, Paoli: Plus: Good selection, very personal service, place to go for race forms or to talk running Minus: Prices Performance Bike, Paoli: Plus: Great prices, good mechanics Minus: Generic bike shop, few tri-heads — "The wrinkles only go where the smiles have been." — J. Buffett

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In the Denver-Boulder area, I buy my shoes at Runners Roost, and my clothing at the Hind outlet store.  I buy most of my bike stuff from either Colorado Cyclist or Excell sports for mail-order or the local Performance shops.  I also buy a lot of clothing mail order from Triathlete Zombies. Chuck Berghoefer

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Would like to know of everyone’s favorite, local triathlon, bike or running shop.

On the San Francisco Peninsula: – The Runner’s High on Santa Cruz Avenue in Menlo Park.  Primarily runner oriented, but they also cater to triathletes as well.  They *seriously* know their stuff.  Excellent service, for runners from runners. – The Runner’s Factory, Los Gatos, CA.  They sponsor Holly Nybo and Lauren Alexander.  A runner’s shop with a strong triathlon bent.  Enthusiasm and excellent service.  They frequently have some pretty good prices, too. – My personal favorite bike shop is not at all tri-leaning, but the manager is extremely knowledgable and will work with me on absolutely anything I want to try.  They started stocking Scott Waimeas last year and did well with them, so they may yet begin catering to the Tri trade.  Oh, yeah, the shop is Garner’s Pro Bike Shop in Redwood City.  The manager’s name is Paul.  Tell ‘im Tricia sent you and he’ll treat you like royalty!  (He would anyway; he’s a great guy and a fantastic salesman—-very knowledgable and straightforward, never pushy). – Don’t know much about it from personal experience (have been there only once, but received a good impression), but I understand Saratoga Cyclery in Saratoga, CA is reputed to be an excellent tri-focused bike shop.  If I ever break down and decide I want to get a steep-angled, 650c wheeled tri-machine, this is probably where I’ll go to test-ride the widest possible variety of sleek TriBikes. Just my $.02, for what it’s worth…. Tri-Baby                                      _                                   –    o      ’             –  __o       –    </_  `     ‘         –    <         – __/    /o_         – (()) (())        -  / "REAL Triathletes don’t draft!" http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~brooksie        

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Still grinding away on research for The 1997 Triathlon Sourcebook. Would like to know of everyone’s favorite, local triathlon, bike or running shop. Hearing from many people in many places would provide a "reality check"for me  on the list of 300 retail stores that I have developed, for shops in the US, Canada and beyond. So … where do triathletes like to go for their "stuff?" (Or, which sources do you mail-order from?). Thanks, Katherine Williams The 1997 Triathlon Sourcebook

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Mail order:  I really like Colorado Cyclist (though its not cheap) for bike and some tri stuff and have found Road Runner Sports to be terrific for running-related stuff. –Tri-Hard

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Can’t forget Mission Bay here in suburban Chicago.  They’ve got a great in stock selection if you’re lucky enough to be close to the store and they’ll talk to you all day with advice with no pressure to buy. Scott For you catalog types, they also do mail order.

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Question:

Tri-Dork, in answer to Tri-Weasel’s request for advice about training for However, at your age (when do you turn 15?) those distances could do serious long term damage to your still growing body. THis assumes you don’t do any serious long distance training. With a proper long distance training regime you will almost definitley do harm to your body. Wait till you’re over 20 at least, until your bones etc stop growing and harden properly so they can take the punishment with less consequences.  

and Tri-Weasel replied Have you had this experience, can you prove it?

Let me refer you to Roberts and Weider, "Strength and Weight Training for Young Athletes" Contemporary Books, 1994, p. 9: "Significance of the Adolescent Growth Spurt Period: Strength and agility generally improve during middle childhood and adolescense. The adolescent growth spurt in males is magnified, primarily due to the increase in male hormones. Adolescent athletes are often able to make remarkable increases in strength gains during this period. If an athlete has a solid foundation of training from which to build, during adolescence he or she can start training more frequently, more intensely, and for a longer duration. One caution: do not overtrain. Young adolescent athletes need to be cautioned about overtraining because of the possibility of of injury to the growth plates. During adolescence, the growth plates are thicker and more porous, which makes them more susceptible to injury. In addition, the growth spurt may increase the susceptibility to growth plate injury because of an increase in muscle-tendon tightness about the joints, which results in a loss of flexibility." If that (and nothing else your friends at r.s.t. have said) isn’t enough to scare you off, consider this: When a growth plate is damaged, that part of the bone stops growing. Want to still do triathlons when you’re an adult? It might be pretty difficult with one leg an inch or two shorter than the other! It’s a common symptom among triathletes – some sort of machismo associated with seeing who can go farther than everyone else. At your age, you should be focussing on quality, not quantity. See how low you can get your 500 and 1000 swim times. Work on your 1 mile, 5k, and 10k times. Concentrate on your bike handling skills, hill climbing, etc. As a swim coach, I’ve seen way too many kids with very promising careers end up almost crippled (and I mean "crippled" very literally) by too much, too soon. Don’t be a statistic. Chip Zempel

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I have no doubt that you could do both races and possibly do reasonably well. most definitely However, at your age (when do you turn 15?) June the 12th those distances could do serious long term damage to your still growing Have you had this experience, can you prove it?

Bad question buddy, I have waaaaaay too much experience of what I speak. As a teenager, as I’ve told you on email, I was a competitive freestyle skier. We pounded our still growing bodies and now, every morning when I get up, I painfully swing my legs off the bed, rest for a few moments then push myself upright. I then hobble to the bathroom for a shave and a bath. My knees are toast. I had repeated knee injuries as a teen and SEEMED to bounce back. I have had further knee problems as an adult. In hindsight I realize that the human body doesn’t recover 100%. 99% seems to be it. That then becomes the new benchmark. I figure my knees are about 85% now. I have been diagnosed with Osteo-arthritis in my hip as well. My sports medicine specialist (I think I’ve just about paid for his summer home by now) says that at only age 35, I am very young for this type of thing. I sit here typing and my hip is very sore. About every second day, I pop some pills for the pain/aching in my hip. This truly sucks. I now walk and run with a slight limp. This sucks alot.  I have to cut my running back and I only run long distances (over 10 miles) against the advice of my sports med guy. My hip and knees give me much grief and the limits they force upon me and my life are very frustrating. I wouldn’t wish my bones etc on anyone (No pun intended)   TriWeasel, forget the ultra distance stuff for at least the next five years. I know how you feel, I’ve been there. As a young person you may feel invincible. However, if you want to be in this game (life) for the long haul, and have the best overall life, you will do well to go for the short stuff for now and wait till you’re old (20) to start doing the long stuff. Repetitive stresses on growing bones will do you in, TRUST ME!!! body.   Stick with short stuff up to about 1/2 ironman etc until then. Yeah, right.

Half ironman may or may not seem short, but you can get a long hard workout and since it’s in three sports, you will do relatively less damage to your body. Also, it’s not too difficult to do a 1/2 ironman on the same training you do for Olympic distance races. A couple of long rides or long runs a month before the race shoud be fine. You’re likely to win your age group anyway since so few young teens are crazy enough to do 1/2 ironmans. "Tri-Weasel"

Marcus Perry "TriDork" ** Give whenever you CAN…..Take only when you HAVE to. ** ** M. Perry     circa 1980 **

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ok, i have a couple of things to say: 1.  I asked specifically for comments on how to prepare for these events, not to ridicule the 15 year old who wants to race long distances. 2.  Stephen "trib" Collins said that excessive pounding such as that in gymnastics and running can do bad stuff to the growth plates, what sort of impact is there in swimming and biking?  What exactly would the 24 hour bike race do?  NOTHING except make me really sore and i probably would have to take protien supplements every four hours so i don’t lose the muscle, right? Somebody prove me wrong and i’ll consider dropping one of the events. — Logan Heinrich "Tri-Weasel" **Things turn out best for those that make the best of the way things turn out**

Well boy genius, maybe there is no impact in swimming and biking, but I recall that you asked about a 24 hour cycling race and a 50 mile run. Running = impact. Far be it from any of us to try to offer any friendly advice. You go ahead and do whatever you like and suffer the consequences (or no as appropriate). As for how to approach training for one of these events, perhaps the fact that you are asking the question at all also shows that you are not ready. The training should not be too much different from training for an ironman distance race, and of course you have done 3 or 4 of those right? The 50 mile run in particular is around the same (time) length. Just focus on long, slow runs. Speed is not an issue at all. You need to get used to being on your feet all day. Go on a (1hour walk/ 1 hour run) for 6 hours. Maybe walk to the 10 miles to the mall and run back. The 24 hour bike is a little different, as you have to deal with not sleeping for an entire day as well as cycling the entire time. Again focus on long easy rides. Practice riding in the dark, of course with a light and reflective gear. Have your parent(s) follow in the car. If they are unwilling, take it as another sign of the stupidity of the whole venture. Sorry, but if you ask for advice, you sometimes are going to get some that you don’t like. myke — Tellmesomethingidontknowtellmesomethingicanusepushthebuttonconnectthegoddam ndots

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50 mile run. Running = impact.

Just revised racing schedule, screwing the run because it is a week before a half marathon i am going to do. As for how to approach training for one of these events, perhaps the fact that you are asking the question at all also shows that you are not ready.

I know how, i am just asking others to see if they have some tips or strategies that could make me go faster. — Logan Heinrich "Tri-Weasel" **Things turn out best for those that make the best of the way things turn out**

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ok, i have a couple of things to say: 1.  I asked specifically for comments on how to prepare for these events, not to ridicule the 15 year old who wants to race long distances. 2.  Stephen "trib" Collins said that excessive pounding such as that in gymnastics and running can do bad stuff to the growth plates, what sort of impact is there in swimming and biking?  What exactly would the 24 hour bike race do?  NOTHING except make me really sore and i probably would have to take protien supplements every four hours so i don’t lose the muscle, right? Somebody prove me wrong and i’ll consider dropping one of the events. — Logan Heinrich "Tri-Weasel" **Things turn out best for those that make the best of the way things turn out**

Hey, if you look long enough, you’ll most certainly find someone to tell you what you want to hear.  Have you talked to your doctor? Have you talked to anyone in sports medicine?   Why do you keep challenging us to prove you wrong?  This newsgroup is not a medical advisory board but it does contain an enormous amount of experience and common sense. — All comments and opinions expressed are those of my employer and not my own.  Please sue them and leave me out of it. Tod Meinke

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Finally, a thread where I can comment with some authority (kinda) A particular (but by no means the only) danger for young athletes competing in endurance (and high-impact) sports such as running and gymnastics lies in the risk of injury to the epiphyses (spelling?) of the long bones of the arm an leg.  These long bones contain portions (known as an epiphysis) from which the bone grows – hence the common name "growth plate".  Repetitive high-stress impact, such as that experienced in running (over any distance) and gymnastics (and other high stress movements such as throwing curveballs), can cause extensive damage to bone growth plates in such a way as to cause premature hardening (calcification) of these plates.  Consequently, young athletes can experience symptoms ranging from restriction of growth (in extreme cases) to severe stress fracture like damage to serious bruising within the bone (experienced as a pain not unlike really bad shin splints). I have seen too many cases of growth plate injury (6 years as a state level gymnastics coach) in young athletes to advocate early participation in demanding, high-stress sports. While I see no problem in kids taking part in any sport – in fact I enourage it, there are too many overweight kids around in Australia, and as I understand also in the US – I would caution both the aspiring young athlete and his/her parents and coaches to take extreme care in increasing training and competition loads.  Take your time introducing yourself/your child/your young athletes to demanding loads, and NEVER introduce them to loads or skills that put "adult" stresses on their bodies until they have finished the major part of their growth during puberty. For the young man asking about training for the events he raised in this thread – pal, forget it!  Do some smaller events, say tris up to Olympic distance max.  or 10k road runs and the like.  An IM/marathon type event is no place for a mid-puberty teenager unless he wants a long course of physiotherapy and (probably) surgery. Meantime, enjoy your sport and be prepared to take some advice from those who know. Steve in Australia — |               Stephen "Trib" Collins              | |Analyst/Programmer/Webmaster, Computer Law Services| |13 Curtin Place CURTIN ACT 2605 Australia (GMT +10)| |        +61 6 2826888  Fax:   +61 6 2828282        | |     TRIATHLON!    o  "The best view of one’s      | |            __o   <|  soul is from beyond the     | |          _ < _  _   edge, looking back."        | |   __^o_ (_)/ (_)  /                               |

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While i was deciding my 1997 race season i decided to do a 50 mile run and a 24 hour bicycle race, i was wondering if anyone had any tips on how to prepare for such events. Thanks. —

What no channel swim?!?  My tip would be to reconsider your decisions!!                                                                      / -hug

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While i was deciding my 1997 race season i decided to do a 50 mile run and a 24 hour bicycle race, i was wondering if anyone had any tips on how to prepare for such events. Thanks. — Logan Heinrich

- Hey TriWeasle   I don’t mean to keep harping on you but you’re too young to be doing that sort of crap. I have no doubt that you could do both races and possibly do reasonably well. However, at your age (when do you turn 15?) those distances could do serious long term damage to your still growing body. THis assumes you don’t do any serious long distance training. With a proper long distance training regime you will almost definitley do harm to your body. Wait till you’re over 20 at least, until your bones etc stop growing and harden properly so they can take the punishment with less consequences.  Stick with short stuff up to about 1/2 ironman etc until then. Later……. Marcus Perry "TriDork" ** Give whenever you CAN…..Take only when you HAVE to. ** ** M. Perry     circa 1980 **

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Ok, i have a couple of things to say: 1.  I asked specifically for comments on how to prepare for these events, not to ridicule the 15 year old who wants to race long distances. 2.  Stephen "trib" Collins said that excessive pounding such as that in gymnastics and running can do bad stuff to the growth plates, what sort of impact is there in swimming and biking?  What exactly would the 24 hour bike race do?  NOTHING except make me really sore and i probably would have to take protien supplements every four hours so i don’t lose the muscle, right? Somebody prove me wrong and i’ll consider dropping one of the events. — Logan Heinrich "Tri-Weasel" **Things turn out best for those that make the best of the way things turn out**

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However, at your age (when do you turn 15?) June the 12th those distances could do serious long term damage to your still growing Have you had this experience, can you prove it? body.   Stick with short stuff up to about 1/2 ironman etc until then. Yeah, right.

Hey Logan, he’s right.  Repeated intense stress is bad for growing bones. They don’t let little leaguers throw curve-balls for a reason — they’ll never throw curve-balls later in life if they do.  I don’t have any references handy, but I’m sure they are available.  Why don’t you try looking it up yourself — try the keywords "adolescent endurance sports" as a phrase and as separate keywords on Medline to start with.  It will tell you stuff you don’t want to hear, but your odds of doing marathons at 40 will be better if you pay it some attention Mark Vande Kamp

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I have no doubt that you could do both races and possibly do reasonably well.

most definitely However, at your age (when do you turn 15?)

June the 12th those distances could do serious long term damage to your still growing

Have you had this experience, can you prove it? body.   Stick with short stuff up to about 1/2 ironman etc until then.

Yeah, right. — Logan Heinrich "Tri-Weasel" **Things turn out best for those that make the best of the way things turn out**

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While i was deciding my 1997 race season i decided to do a 50 mile run and a 24 hour bicycle race, i was wondering if anyone had any tips on how to prepare for such events. Thanks. — Logan Heinrich "Tri-Weasel" **Things turn out best for those that make the best of the way things turn out**

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Question:

  Along the same lines, I was truly disappointed to read that Michellie   Jones, a staunch opponent of drafting, will be racing ITU this season.   As I’ve said before, I really don’t blame the pros for racing the   draft-legal events, because they *have * to race where the money is,   but it’s hard to see an icon like Michellie give up the fight.  It was   admirable while it lasted, that’s for damned sure! From last news I’ve heard – she’d be doing the ITU for the same reason Miles Stewart is:    "Contractual Agreements"         – Perhaps better phrased as contractual disagreements. Remember she left the GP series in Oz after competing in (I think) only one race?  The Bray Bros run the GP and ITGP series.  The ITGP series also initially didn’t include women’s races, there now appears word of a ‘gracious’ three. As for Miles – he seemed to always be having fun with the Bray Brothers. If memory serves me correctly, he entered the GP series a year later than other athletes, which was very much due to ‘contractual’ fun and games. This is why he is not part of the ITGP series and why he took part (and won) the ITU round in Japan.  He may rue entering though.  He ended up with a broken toe after the camera helicopter got too low and blew up the matting/carpet at the swim exit.  He was on it at the time and took a stumble – crippling his toe.  To think he still had to run 10k after a 40k ride.. impressive. Back to the main topic – I guess it’s never mind the ethics, the organisers have bought everyone out.  And if they don’t like you?  Well you’re out.  They seem to have the final word. It’s amazing what money can buy these days.  Now it’s the right to decide who does and doesn’t race. —   Woof!

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Well, since the dreaded "D" word has been getting tossed about ’round these parts again lately, I figured I might toss out a little morsel for consideration/discussion. Was everyone else as disappointed as I was with the news (I guess by now it’s not "news" but "olds") that the million dollar race series that was supposed to represent a defiant slap in the face of the ITU will be all

I hadn’t heard of this. It’s *very* discouraging. I’d like to read of this……do you recall where you heard/saw this?

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Was everyone else as disappointed as I was with the news (I guess by now it’s not "news" but "olds") that the million dollar race series that was supposed to represent a defiant slap in the face of the ITU will be all draft-legal?

Sure, they’re draft-legal, but then on such short formats (700/7/3) drafting really doesn’t have much effect, and the courses are so narrow and fields so bunched it would be silly to try non-drafting unless the cycle was at least 10km on a 2km circuit. The ITGP is still a slap in the face for the ITU becasue now their’s a choice of series and the ITU can’t just be dictators and have all the athletes themselves because there are no other races with money. The ITGP put the ITU against the wall. I don’t think it a choice of the devil you know and the devil you don’t know – comments in the paper would indictae the Bary brothers listen to the athletes a lot more than "less". Then, that wouldn’t be hard, would it? But just look who’s racing for the ITGP, it must be percievd a lot better than the ITU seroes: Brad Bevan, Hamish Carter, Simon lessing, Spencer Smith,Mike Pigg, Mark Allen?, Greg Welch plus some brittish/australian juniors. Who’s going to be doing the ITU cup? Myles will be pretty lonely…… Along the same lines, I was truly disappointed to read that Michellie Jones, a staunch opponent of drafting, will be racing ITU this season.  As I’ve said before, I really don’t blame the pros for racing the draft-legal events, because they *have * to race where the money is, but it’s hard to see an icon like Michellie give up the fight.  

What!!! Where did you read that… Michellie said at the january GP race (when she lost to Emma, but wasn’t fit) about not doing the Mexico WC "there’s heaps of other races…". The interview in Triathlete with Jeffrey Justice showed she made more money last year without competing ITU events than in the previous years when she did. You remember the question JJ asked her: "I think the two ITU world championships really mad your career…" And she showed he was finacialy wrong. Only PNF made more money last year….How many ITU races did she do?? Isn’t it Zero?? TriBaby

Glad you liked Wildflower, sounds like a fun race..but I may have need aid at mile four on the run….. Now, if i can just qualify for the OZ IM…. Richard

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Along the same lines, I was truly disappointed to read that Michellie Jones, a staunch opponent of drafting, will be racing ITU this season.  As I’ve said before, I really don’t blame the pros for racing the draft-legal events, because they *have * to race where the money is, but it’s hard to see an icon like Michellie give up the fight.   What!!! Where did you read that… Michellie said at the january GP race (when she lost to Emma, but wasn’t fit) about not doing the Mexico WC "there’s heaps of other races…". The interview in Triathlete with Jeffrey Justice showed she made more money last year without competing ITU events than in the previous years when she did. You remember the question JJ asked her: "I think the two ITU world

championships really mad your career…" And she showed he was finacialy wrong. Only PNF made more money last year….How many ITU races did she do?? Isn’t it Zero??

Check out the June issue of Triathlete.  Michellie talks about plans to race 6 ITU events in 1996 TriBaby — "’Be a terrific innovation if you could get your mind to stretch a little further than the next wise crack." "Y’know, I tried that once, but it didn’t snap back into place." —Katharine Hepburn & Eve Arden in "Stage Door" (1937)    

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  [..]   I hadn’t heard of this. It’s *very* discouraging.   I’d like to read of this……do you recall where   you heard/saw this? Yes, the ITGP *Will* be a draft-legal series (as is the TGP series). I had noted this earlier this year, and wondered out aloud on RST .. it’s the ITU (board) which needs changing, as we still need an ITU we can respect and trust to uphold the true spirit of the sport rather than the current dog fight twixt private and business interests, which unfortunately appears to include the ITU.  The sport seems to be secondary right now.  This is not a good sign. These draft legal races are fine (did I say that??) as long as they’re not the basis for determining World and Olympic champions (to echo Spencer Smith’s sentiments). —   Woof!

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Was everyone else as disappointed as I was with the news (I guess by now it’s   not "news" but "olds") that the million dollar race series that was supposed to   represent a defiant slap in the face of the ITU will be all draft-legal?   Several months back, I recall, when this series was first announced, there was   great rejoicing in the land because finally it appeared a significant rebellion   was in the works, one that could actually weaken the ITU’s death grip on the   lives and careers of many pros. When it was later announced, however, that the   ITGP series would be draft-legal, there was nary a peep of disappointment anywhere.   What do you all think?

Remember that Who tune "Won’t Get Fooled Again"? (my favorite pre-race pysch song but thats another story)…. theres a line in there that goes: "Meet the new boss… same as the old boss" Yeah, I’m disappointed.  They’re pioneering a different sport and calling it the same thing. Art Hutchinson Newton, MA

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Well, since the dreaded "D" word has been getting tossed about ’round these parts again lately, I figured I might toss out a little morsel for consideration/discussion. Was everyone else as disappointed as I was with the news (I guess by now it’s not "news" but "olds") that the million dollar race series that was supposed to represent a defiant slap in the face of the ITU will be all I hadn’t heard of this. It’s *very* discouraging. I’d like to read of this……do you recall where you heard/saw this?

I don’t remember the specific articles now, but it’s appeared in a number of places in Triathlete and Inside Triathlon, in various articles about the ITGP series. Tri-Baby                                      _                                   –    o      ’             –  __o       –    </_  `     ‘         –    <         – __/    /o_         – (()) (())        -  / "REAL Triathletes don’t draft!" http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~brooksie        

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Well, since the dreaded "D" word has been getting tossed about ’round these parts again lately, I figured I might toss out a little morsel for consideration/discussion. Was everyone else as disappointed as I was with the news (I guess by now it’s not "news" but "olds") that the million dollar race series that was supposed to represent a defiant slap in the face of the ITU will be all draft-legal?  Several months back, I recall, when this series was first announced, there was great rejoicing in the land because finally it appeared a significant rebellion was in the works, one that could actually weaken the ITU’s death grip on the lives and careers of many pros. When it was later announced, however, that the ITGP series would be draft-legal, there was nary a peep of disappointment anywhere.   OK, yes, the ITGP series still counts as a blow against the ITU, but to me, its impact is severely weakened by the drafting concession.  Perhaps I’d feel a bit better about it if at least *some* of the events in the series were non-drafting events, but this is not the case.   Of course, the sins of the ITU extend beyond the drafting flashpoint, so any concerted assault upon ITU supremacy must be interpreted as a positive, and yet….  I am not comfortable cheering on a race series that promotes drafting.  I’m not even interested in the ITGP, no matter who is racing in it, because I honestly don’t think of it as real triathlon.  I don’t even think of the series as a real "alternative" to the ITU. Along the same lines, I was truly disappointed to read that Michellie Jones, a staunch opponent of drafting, will be racing ITU this season.  As I’ve said before, I really don’t blame the pros for racing the draft-legal events, because they *have * to race where the money is, but it’s hard to see an icon like Michellie give up the fight.  It was admirable while it lasted, that’s for damned sure! I suppose I really didn’t have a particular point to make, but I just wanted to share my thoughts about this.  What do you all think? TriBaby — "’Be a terrific innovation if you could get your mind to stretch a little further than the next wise crack." "Y’know, I tried that once, but it didn’t snap back into place." —Katharine Hepburn & Eve Arden in "Stage Door" (1937)    

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Question:

 Hi,   I was wondering why there has been no results for the ITU race   held in Japan on July 8-9 weekend?  The ITU has a WWW page   which has a heading for the results, but no results.  How   difficult can it be to enter in the results into a WWW page   within 24 hours (maximum) of the race being completed – I   am sure it is not difficult to FAX a few pages of results   from Japan to the USA so that they could be entered in a   timely manner? then again it looks as if it is!   Please ITU update your pages in a timely manner and in   also try to enter all of the results from the race just   not the top ten athletes – people might just be interested   in athletes other than those that finish in the top ten! IMHO, |    WW      S. Bert Sandie               | |   /__     MPR Teltech Limited          | |  | oo |    Burnaby, BC, Canada          | |   __/                                  | |  /|/|                                 |

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I strongly second the first comments. Looks like laziness to me. ITU was also too lazy to consider using International Distance to describe their Olympic distance events after the IOC complained. But not too lazy to try to usurp all meaning for the word we formerly used to describe our sport — triathlon — though. I’m sorry, the "triathlon distance triathlon" held recently in Japan. Or is it "triathlon triathlon" — a later absurd variantion on Joseph Heller’s Catch 22 character Major Major Major Major? Or are we violating ITU copyright by calling any other swim-bike-run events that are not 1.5 K swims, 40K bikes and 10k runs triathlons now? I say that a revolution can be accomplished by continuing to use the term Olympic distance — if only for spite. Note that once the term gets into common useage, they cannot defend copyright. Thus a coke takes power away from Coke, once kleenex is accepted as a generic description of tissues, Kleenex loses copyright value, etc. While publications can be liable for use of the forbidden copyright terms, expression on the Internet is both protected by free speech and duly noted by lexicographers and makes its way into dictionaries where the battle may be won.  I say they took the name of the sport and defended it by saying it is just like calling a 26.2 mile footrace a marathon. Not true. It is like calling a 1500 meter race Track and Field. Then the 100 meters and 200 meters and 5000 meters and 10,000 meters can go to hell and search for another generic word to describe footraces and hammer throws. Also, events like the pentathlon and heptathlon and decathlon were invented for the modern Olympic games. But triathlon is the pre-existing name of our sport that beat the 2000 Olympic games in Sydney to the doctionary by 25 years. It refers to the whole sport, from kids’ triathlons of 100 meter swim, 3 mile bike and half mile runs up to triple- and deca-Ironman events. So is an Ironman no longer a triathlon now? is it now "a swim-bike-run multisport event 4.35 triathlons in length?" Gag me.

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I agree with everyone complaining about the stupidity of the ITU in the "Olympic Triathlon" naming debacle.  What *idiot* came up with that stupid idea????  If they couldn’t use the term "Olympic", couldn’t they have at least replaced it with *anything* else simply to distinguish this very standard distance from other very standard distances???  God, they could have just used "Classic" or "Standard" or "Median" or "Wimpy" or "Goofy" or *anything*.  I agree, let’s just stubbornly continue to refer to them as Olympic, ITU be damned. Geez, that’s exasperating! Tricia

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I agree with everyone complaining about the stupidity of the ITU in the "Olympic Triathlon" naming debacle.  What *idiot* came up with that stupid idea????  If they couldn’t use the term "Olympic", couldn’t they have at least replaced it with *anything* else simply to distinguish this very standard distance from other very standard distances???  God, they could have just used "Classic" or "Standard" or "Median" or "Wimpy" or "Goofy" or *anything*.  I agree, let’s just stubbornly continue to refer to them as Olympic, ITU be damned.

[Sorry if I'm about to duplicate something already said; I've been away] Whatever happened to "International Distance"? I read this new "naming" (or non-naming) convention the other night just before starting a run, and almost couldn’t do the run I was laughing so hard. Simply unbelievable. Steve Steve Patt, Stevens Creek Software   http://alumni.caltech.edu/~slp/tad.html (The Athlete’s Diary home page)   ftp://alumni.caltech.edu/pub/slp (Information and demo copies)

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